Venice's Great Galleas

[Buccaneer]

Those wanting a UB instead of a UU, how do you know that will make their city even more unbalanced? I'm sure the testers have played several rounds for and against Venice. Also, have you guys not used much naval units at all? The regular galleass comes at a good time and are very useful, esp. buying the time till they are upgraded to frigates. I can imagine how much better a souped up galleass would be and if the AI can learn to build them early enough, how we would fear them.

 

[Viregel]

Really? You don't think Dandolo would actually focus on military conquest? Because, you do realise he can grow an empire that way AS WELL... He's a power to be recokned with.

To get the best of both worlds, a Grand Arsenale UB. Replaces Seaport (or something similar) +30% when building naval units, gives some sort of unique naval promotion. Sorted.

 

[Goldkoron]

To get the best of both worlds, a Grand Arsenale UB. Replaces Seaport (or something similar) +15% when building naval units, gives some sort of unique naval promotion. Sorted.

That sounds good

 

[Viregel]

The Great Galleas just does not feel justified as a unique for Venice. (This is my opinion)
So I thought of a better more historically accurate replacement for it.

If the Merchant of Venice counted as Venice's unique unit, then I believe that Venice should have a UB, Canals of Venice, (or something like that) which replaces the aqueduct and provides 60% of food after a new citizen is born, or maybe instead just gives a production or food bonus ontop of the 40% food carried over after a citizen is born.

I would prefer canals as a UI for every civ, something that cargo boats could utilize. Trade caravans have roads, so why not canals? They could link areas too far away to be reached otherwise, and military units could travel down them when a certain policy (Commerce) or technology is unlocked.

 

[VainApocalypse]

There's nothing wrong with having a unique unit that only has a temporary advantage. It just means that you have to get the most out of that unit as you can before it becomes obsolete.

It being a strong ranged unit means that they'll be spectacular at taking coastal cities. So quickly build the Venetian armada and lay claim to a coastline or two before frigates come along. Doing that means that even after those units become obsolete, they'll still be benefiting you with the land that they gave you.

As for people suggesting some canal improvement or building, they seem to be forgetting that there was a distinctly militaristic streak to Venice. They weren't all masks, canals and commerce. That militaristic streak should be represented someway.

 

[wigwam]

People who are complaining about the Great Galleass being weak, giving Venice naval dominance only in one era, etc. — look at the Ship of the Line. It has no special promotions and carries nothing over when it's upgraded to the Battleship, but it still allows England to completely dominate the seas for a good long while.

 

[Talcove]

People who are complaining about the Great Galleass being weak, giving Venice naval dominance only in one era, etc. — look at the Ship of the Line. It has no special promotions and carries nothing over when it's upgraded to the Battleship, but it still allows England to completely dominate the seas for a good long while.

Part of it has to do with what's being replaced. The Galleass has a rather short lifespan, whereas the Frigate has a large one. The Galleass is acquired late in the Medieval era, and the Frigate comes very soon after, only 2-3 techs away. Frigates, on the other hand, can last into the late Modern era (Battleships) and take various techs to make obsolete.

England can dominate with it's Ship of the Line for a long time because the unit is in play for a long time. The same cannot be said for something which replaces a Galleass.

 

[Martinus]

Since Venice is already so out of the box, why not give it a UB that replaces a National Wonder?

Perhaps instead of Heroic Epic, let it have the Grand Arsenal - with extra bonuses to naval unit xp or "all naval units built in this city start with a unique promotion allowing them to capture cities as if they were melee units" (or give all melee units built in this city a Marine promotion)?

 

[wigwam]

The Galleass is acquired late in the Medieval era, and the Frigate comes very soon after, only 2-3 techs away. Frigates, on the other hand, can last into the late Modern era (Battleships) and take various techs to make obsolete.

It's true that Frigates are around for an unusually long time, but Galleasses can be too—it just depends on how you choose to tech. They're acquired "late" in the medieval era, sure, but Compass is cheaper than all the other late-medieval techs, and it's very easy to beeline (it doesn't even require Animal Husbandry, Archery, or Mining). Venice will be pushing Optics (for their Great Merchant) and Philosophy (for the National College) very early anyway; from there it's a short step to Compass. You could get your Galleass and still be 10+ techs away from Frigates, in an extreme case.

By the same token, a civ that's focusing on the middle or bottom of the tech tree, particularly one poor in iron (not England, obviously) might get Ironclads before (or, more likely, very shortly after) Frigates. Which doesn't render them obsolete, obviously, but does cut into their dominance somewhat.

It's a weird tech tree. You can actually discover Nuclear Fusion without Astronomy.

 

[MooFreaky]

Rerailing this thread, should Venice have a Canals UB rather than a Great Galleas UU?

Nope. Canals may be what Venice is famous for, but they aren't the canal master. Amsterdam has more canals than Venice does. So why not give it to the dutch?

Plus, Venice may be famed for its canals but it's not like they actually do that much. They basically function as a different way of getting around the city. If anything they are annoying and hampering because they take longer to navigate. Sure they look cool and it gives Venice a great feel, but that's about it.

As a replacement aqueduct that's a big no for me. The canals don't encourage growth, as they don't provide fresh water to the city or anything like that. There isn't much that the canals really do that's different in a game representation, perhaps offer a tourism bonus??

Either way I think that the Great Galleas will offer FAR more. Early game Venice is going to have PLENTY of time to pump out other units as they are going to be growing quickly (no settlers) and building quickly (because, again - no settlers). They will need fewer workers, as they don't need to divide attention between cities etc.

The Great Galleas will allow Venice to be a military threat to coastal neighbours very early. Grab a city-state, or hold back a coastal rival (or take their cities) and boom Venice is charging ahead.
Personally I think Venice is going to need a period of aggression to not be overwhelmed, and earlier is better. The later their period comes the less their OCC goes from being a military advantage to being a big disadvantage. That will happen early and Venice need to be aggressive in that time. Anything after the Galleas is going to be too late to be effective.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Galleasses are fine for weakening the defenses of coastal cities, and defending coastal cities. too But, and this is a big but, the Great Galleas doesn't seem so great if it's just like it was "revealed" to be in the leak. No additional promotion? More cost? That doesn't seem too hot.

But I noticed the production cost of a regular Galeass is 100, while the Great one had 73 only. If it's really like this and the higher cost was only in gold (and not too much), then it's really a great UU, even if I prefer ones with PRRRR-omotions.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Is the Great Galleas just a strength bonus or is it cheaper to build?
That would make more sense historically ....that or make them cheaper to buy with gold to represent thier merchant fleet.

They are more expensive actually, which is not good.

 

[gunnergoz]

The Venetian galleas was expensive to build and it's construction required shipbuilding skills that the Venetians had uniquely mastered at that point in time in the Mediterranean. There were only six or seven galleas' available at the Battle of Lepanto and they turned the battle for the Venetians. In historical terms, the Galleas was a one-shot wonder, making Venice a maritime force to be reckoned with for a couple of centuries at best. It is actually one of the more accurately portrayed historical UU's in Civ V's roster.

 

[Tagma]

While I originally thought that Venice would have its canals, Arsenale, tourism potential etc etc represented with actual buildings, the designers seem to have covered them rather more elegantly through the current UA. Double trade routes and buying in puppets means you can have lots of cities churning out units- and a capital that's absolutely overflowing with culture and tourism and bonuses from dirt-cheap National Wonders.
At first I didn't like the look of the Great Galleas, but then I thought about the circumstances in which those early sea battles take place- usually a 1-3 tile wide strip of Coast- and with so few units able to fight at once, being able to fight while in the "red" for even a single turn longer than your enemies makes a very big difference very fast.

 

[Txurce]

The Venetian galleas was expensive to build and it's construction required shipbuilding skills that the Venetians had uniquely mastered at that point in time in the Mediterranean. There were only six or seven galleas' available at the Battle of Lepanto and they turned the battle for the Venetians. In historical terms, the Galleas was a one-shot wonder, making Venice a maritime force to be reckoned with for a couple of centuries at best. It is actually one of the more accurately portrayed historical UU's in Civ V's roster.

This, in a nutshell, is why the Great Galleass should be exactly what it is.

And I much prefer a UU to a UB in a civ that can only build ONE.

 

[bixbeiderbaby]

To get the best of both worlds, a Grand Arsenale UB. Replaces Seaport (or something similar) +30% when building naval units, gives some sort of unique naval promotion. Sorted.

I second this. The Arsenal of Venice was a precursor to assembly production. It was known for its efficient and high-quality shipbuilding.

 

[Luckystrike77]

Venice would be extremely weakened without its Galleas. It will be the Venetian Puppet maker deluxe, it makes historical sense, and it's the only galleas UU in the game. It's the perfect choice to make the venetian gameplay interesting. And that's final...basta....

 

[Hans Castorp]

Great Galleas works for me, though I confess I was expecting something like the Arsenale. Still, if you don't like it, there are always mods. A seaport buff would hardly be difficult to execute.

 

[Captain Fargle]

Honestly, all this talk about the Grand Arsenale makes me think it should be a new Wonder rather than a Venetian UB.

 

[Talcove]

Honestly, all this talk about the Grand Arsenale makes me think it should be a new Wonder rather than a Venetian UB.

It would make more sense as a Venetian replacement for the Heroic Epic.