Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
Merry Christmas from Germany.
As a German I have a point of view from the looser´s side. Many things were written here, whic are right indeed. I can say no fact was completely wrong, but som conclusios were.
1. The peace of Brest Litowsk should also keep the Bolsheviks small. If a Republican or Czar governmet were there no such treaty were ever signed. And later the situation should have changed this treaty nearly automaitically. But that´s speculation.
2. Was Versailles too harsh? A GIANT YES. Why? Because of the loss of all colonies, the fleet, the areas of Posen and Westpreußen in the east and Nordschleswig in the North as well as Eupen and Malmedy in the west. This was not predicted. Alsace was and some ships and colonies, but such never. Especially the Eastern areas were not justfied in Germans eyes to that time. East Prussia weas cut off. The army not really able to defend Germany, so the German didn´t feel secure any more. And there were enemy raids by Polish and Lithunian troops.
3. The reparations were way too hard. Germany should pay even the loan of the enemy soldiers. You may say Germany stated the war, but that´s not completely right.
After the assasination of the Austrian Crownprince in Sarajevo the road lead to war. Neither Austria nor Russia and France were willing to find a peacefull solution. Even German and British pressure didn´t help. Both nations were caught to fight although the governments were not so keen (I don´t mention the militairs who were indeed for war in all countries). So this was an accident. And even if Germany were a parlamentary monarchy the Reichtag would have vowed for war when Austria was at war. But there are too many aspect to mention here.
Indeed the reparations were payed, but it weakened the state. After not delivering a few pound of coal not on point the French and Belgium troops inveded the Ruhr area to take their reparations. In other contents you may say they were plundering and even murdering. Nevertheless this was never justified. So it isn´t a wunder that all German parties wanted to abolish this treaty. His leads to:
4. Hitler. I know there were many factors which lead to Hitler. Some were foreign causes some inter German.
Each German government wanted to abolish this treaty and without Hitler Germany would have been successfull in the 30s too. He got the merits of the work of Stresemann and Rathenau and all other politicians. But that´s not the question. The question is, what lead to Hitler and is the Versailles treaty the main reason. First the inter- German causes (shortly): An old monarchistic president, who was too old. He would have been a perfect figure for a Shakespearean tragedy. Then some conservative circles who believed in Hitler having a puppet. No normal man even in these circles believed his Mein Kampf. Then the Preußenschlag 1932, when Papen abolished the Prussian government, which was a stabile democratic one until that date. If the Prussian governmet would have been still there in 1933 Hitler would have never got the power he got. The commusists, which had a negative majority in the Reichstag together with the Nazis. Errors in the Constitution of Weimar. Mistakes in the policy against the reparations to get rid of them. This lead to over 6 million people without work. And the Social democrats who destroyed the Weimar Coalition because of a rising of 0,5% of the annuity insurance due to the reparations and the depression. Both were the main factors which were of German origin which lead to Hitler.
Now the foreign ones: The Great depression. This alone was never a reason but together with the reparations they were catastrophic. Such should have never happened. Although this crise was not predictable in 1919 a crise in generalis was predictable. There was no room for maneuver when the reparations were made. So they were too hard. The German reparartions 1871 were also hard but not so hard. A crisis would have ever lead to an end of the reparations. Germany had no place to maneuver the ship out of the crisis even if there were no errors by the Germans. So the depression hit especially Germany hard.
Another point is the small army and navy which was not nearly able to defend Germany against a power like Poland. Not to mention Belgium or even France. The loss of areas to Poland and this lead the German national proud hurt so even moderate Germans hated Versailles. A whole people felt unsecure. And the right parties (excluding NSDAP) were not able to become a total part of the republic due to that treaty.
5. Result. So at the end I summerize: Versailles was too harsh. It was not the only cause for Hitler but the main one. A mild peace and Hitler would have been only a small remark in a pupil´s homework. I know that only one of the causes I mentioned here briefly, would have hindered Hitler to become "Führer" but without Versaille the propability of such an accident would have been 0 than 90 with. Please also read my posts on http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1456065#post1456065 for some further infos. As well I am able to comment any of these facts. Just ask.
Frohe Weihnachten.
Adler
As a German I have a point of view from the looser´s side. Many things were written here, whic are right indeed. I can say no fact was completely wrong, but som conclusios were.
1. The peace of Brest Litowsk should also keep the Bolsheviks small. If a Republican or Czar governmet were there no such treaty were ever signed. And later the situation should have changed this treaty nearly automaitically. But that´s speculation.
2. Was Versailles too harsh? A GIANT YES. Why? Because of the loss of all colonies, the fleet, the areas of Posen and Westpreußen in the east and Nordschleswig in the North as well as Eupen and Malmedy in the west. This was not predicted. Alsace was and some ships and colonies, but such never. Especially the Eastern areas were not justfied in Germans eyes to that time. East Prussia weas cut off. The army not really able to defend Germany, so the German didn´t feel secure any more. And there were enemy raids by Polish and Lithunian troops.
3. The reparations were way too hard. Germany should pay even the loan of the enemy soldiers. You may say Germany stated the war, but that´s not completely right.
After the assasination of the Austrian Crownprince in Sarajevo the road lead to war. Neither Austria nor Russia and France were willing to find a peacefull solution. Even German and British pressure didn´t help. Both nations were caught to fight although the governments were not so keen (I don´t mention the militairs who were indeed for war in all countries). So this was an accident. And even if Germany were a parlamentary monarchy the Reichtag would have vowed for war when Austria was at war. But there are too many aspect to mention here.
Indeed the reparations were payed, but it weakened the state. After not delivering a few pound of coal not on point the French and Belgium troops inveded the Ruhr area to take their reparations. In other contents you may say they were plundering and even murdering. Nevertheless this was never justified. So it isn´t a wunder that all German parties wanted to abolish this treaty. His leads to:
4. Hitler. I know there were many factors which lead to Hitler. Some were foreign causes some inter German.
Each German government wanted to abolish this treaty and without Hitler Germany would have been successfull in the 30s too. He got the merits of the work of Stresemann and Rathenau and all other politicians. But that´s not the question. The question is, what lead to Hitler and is the Versailles treaty the main reason. First the inter- German causes (shortly): An old monarchistic president, who was too old. He would have been a perfect figure for a Shakespearean tragedy. Then some conservative circles who believed in Hitler having a puppet. No normal man even in these circles believed his Mein Kampf. Then the Preußenschlag 1932, when Papen abolished the Prussian government, which was a stabile democratic one until that date. If the Prussian governmet would have been still there in 1933 Hitler would have never got the power he got. The commusists, which had a negative majority in the Reichstag together with the Nazis. Errors in the Constitution of Weimar. Mistakes in the policy against the reparations to get rid of them. This lead to over 6 million people without work. And the Social democrats who destroyed the Weimar Coalition because of a rising of 0,5% of the annuity insurance due to the reparations and the depression. Both were the main factors which were of German origin which lead to Hitler.
Now the foreign ones: The Great depression. This alone was never a reason but together with the reparations they were catastrophic. Such should have never happened. Although this crise was not predictable in 1919 a crise in generalis was predictable. There was no room for maneuver when the reparations were made. So they were too hard. The German reparartions 1871 were also hard but not so hard. A crisis would have ever lead to an end of the reparations. Germany had no place to maneuver the ship out of the crisis even if there were no errors by the Germans. So the depression hit especially Germany hard.
Another point is the small army and navy which was not nearly able to defend Germany against a power like Poland. Not to mention Belgium or even France. The loss of areas to Poland and this lead the German national proud hurt so even moderate Germans hated Versailles. A whole people felt unsecure. And the right parties (excluding NSDAP) were not able to become a total part of the republic due to that treaty.
5. Result. So at the end I summerize: Versailles was too harsh. It was not the only cause for Hitler but the main one. A mild peace and Hitler would have been only a small remark in a pupil´s homework. I know that only one of the causes I mentioned here briefly, would have hindered Hitler to become "Führer" but without Versaille the propability of such an accident would have been 0 than 90 with. Please also read my posts on http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1456065#post1456065 for some further infos. As well I am able to comment any of these facts. Just ask.
Frohe Weihnachten.
Adler
American nationalists are everywhere in these days but I actually used to consider at least all germans understood nationalism was everything but good.
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