Version 2.5beta patch
- Thread starter zappara
- Start date
CMKMStephens
Serious.
I think the bar for barbarian -> civ needs to be raised higher. On an islands map where the AI civs can't wipe out the barb cities, every second turn another barbarian city turns into a civ.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
That's been true for some time now (since the inclusion of the Barb Civ Mod)for select maps where early interaction is limited. But not that big or even any problem on a "land only" map.
As for the Civics in my book the jury is still out as it takes days for me to play a RoM game thru. So testing each Civic is not that easy. There will be strong ones and weak ones, its making your self play the weak ones is where the challenge will increase.
Off on a rabbit trail now; How the heck does Shaka get so many unit promotions? It's insane. I build every unit boosting building and wonder and I still can't keep up.
I will add this, the current version of RoM seems to be the toughest AI wise so far. I'm back on Warlord level and barely keeping ahead of the pack. Maybe it because of all the "new" toys and "path" choices? And I keep window shopping instead of dominating?
JosEPh
konradcabral
Prince
I'm playing the 2.500 version. and once more i have feedback / ideas.
- AI offered me obsidian and incense for free , like was happening with dye and silk.
- I asked before a new treatment for armies, such as higher maintenance costs. My goal was to avoid a stack of 100 warriors becoming a stack of 100 rifleman or modern infantry, which seems to me very unpleasant. Another way of preventing this "eternal army", might be creating a lifetime limit for each unit, like 30 or 50 turns. Would be hard to code this? (if implemented, this should come together with cheaper and faster military unit production).
- Human players have a great diplomatic disadvantage against the AI. The denies to demands such "Stop trading with that mean guy" and "Help me with my war" generates a negative relation that i really don't deserve, and the AIs become "The Ultrafriend League" against me. More, like i said before, is very annoying a tiny country demanding a great one to do this or do that. And why they can "refuse to talk" and I can't?
- Can we create more culture city levels, adding more to the 6 existing? This could be a way to postponing the cultural victory to the same era of the space victory, well like giving more uniqueness to the different cities across the globe. I have seen in other thread that this is possible of modding.
- Is there a way to turn off the extracivs / extraleaders that i don't intend to use, in order to avoid excessive loading? Just delete its folders would do the job or would generate errors? But, on the other side, I also think we still have to add / refine more civs/leaders, like Hitler, Fidel and his Cuban Civ, a japanese one that i don't remember the name, Gorbatchev, and others. Luís Inácio Lula da Silva and Barack Obama would be great! I'd rapidly substitute then for Menelik, Margrete, the thousands of Roosevelts and other poor-designed, not interesting ones (at least to me).
At last, I beg you Zap, please don't abandon Rise of Mankind mod! I, seeking an even more realistic Civ4, don't like very much the idea of fantasy and magic in this game, but I comprehend why you want it, and I fully support your new project. I just ask you to divide your precious time between the 2 mods.
I cannot live without RoM and its constant evolution! After all, some mods are to be tasted, others swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested.
- AI offered me obsidian and incense for free , like was happening with dye and silk.
- I asked before a new treatment for armies, such as higher maintenance costs. My goal was to avoid a stack of 100 warriors becoming a stack of 100 rifleman or modern infantry, which seems to me very unpleasant. Another way of preventing this "eternal army", might be creating a lifetime limit for each unit, like 30 or 50 turns. Would be hard to code this? (if implemented, this should come together with cheaper and faster military unit production).
- Human players have a great diplomatic disadvantage against the AI. The denies to demands such "Stop trading with that mean guy" and "Help me with my war" generates a negative relation that i really don't deserve, and the AIs become "The Ultrafriend League" against me. More, like i said before, is very annoying a tiny country demanding a great one to do this or do that. And why they can "refuse to talk" and I can't?
- Can we create more culture city levels, adding more to the 6 existing? This could be a way to postponing the cultural victory to the same era of the space victory, well like giving more uniqueness to the different cities across the globe. I have seen in other thread that this is possible of modding.
- Is there a way to turn off the extracivs / extraleaders that i don't intend to use, in order to avoid excessive loading? Just delete its folders would do the job or would generate errors? But, on the other side, I also think we still have to add / refine more civs/leaders, like Hitler, Fidel and his Cuban Civ, a japanese one that i don't remember the name, Gorbatchev, and others. Luís Inácio Lula da Silva and Barack Obama would be great! I'd rapidly substitute then for Menelik, Margrete, the thousands of Roosevelts and other poor-designed, not interesting ones (at least to me).
At last, I beg you Zap, please don't abandon Rise of Mankind mod! I, seeking an even more realistic Civ4, don't like very much the idea of fantasy and magic in this game, but I comprehend why you want it, and I fully support your new project. I just ask you to divide your precious time between the 2 mods.
I cannot live without RoM and its constant evolution! After all, some mods are to be tasted, others swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested.
Jabarto
Emperor
I'm going to have to agree with this. High upkeep, maintenance costs AND a quarter (!) of your wealth are simply too huge for penalties. I would say up the city number/distance and corporate maintenance modifiers (up to 20% each, maybe?) and ditch the wealth penalty altogether.
Also, is there any chance of seeing the +1 food restored to villages and towns? With the introduction of marsh tiles - which limit cottage space - and the civic overhaul - which reduced the town boni and added some for farms, mines, etc. - as well as the cost of building roads, I think it could be reinstated without unbalancing anything.
CMKMStephens
Serious.
I'm not thinking the towns need the food. Playing on the Australia map, two of my cities went 40+ pop with about 1/3 farms, 1/3 towns, 1/3 hammers (bar resource tiles). Though that probably didn't have any marshes. I have to say though, noticing that roads cost 2G drove me nuts.
Were you in a permanent alliance with that nation, by any chance? Because I remember the AI giving me free resources in Vanilla BtS when I was in an alliance with it.
konradcabral
Prince
Nope. Happened in the medieval era.
wrestler235
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 70
I'm getting a CTD. Running 2.501. I believe it's a standard size map using Big Small map script. I've attached the save game and the logs. Two times this has happened. I conquer the two northern Japanese cities, then when I hit enter for the next turn, I get a CTD.
ggalindo001
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2002
- Messages
- 267
Zap,
I was able to get through 2 games over the last week. My first game, on Emperor, was a full game (starting in the Ancient age), learning some critical lessons on the way and ended up losing the space race by 15 turns. The second, on Prince, starting in the Industrial age, I was able to win the space race going away. The first was by far the more intriguing game -- the second was to test some theories about the game. Both games, no revolution, but with Barbarian Civ, all other options turned on -- with cultural and time victories disabled.
I will quickly describe my first game (on Emperor) -- I started on an island with the only indigenous civilization. During the early game, 2 barbarian Civs appeared and were summarily crushed by my forces (I was England). The was on a standard sized map, with 7 (I believe) indigenous Civs.
I was without one very critical resource during the game -- sulfur, and could not build an ammunition factory. By the mid game, each of the continents came under effective control of one nation (+ vassals), and the game turned into a big scientific race. Abyssinia had the early tech lead, and by the time I met all of the contestants, I was running 5th or 6th out of 7. Through running a SE and really focusing on city specialization (but not nearly enough as I will highlight later), I was able to get to a solid 2nd by the later Modern age.
I would face 4 wars throughout, all against the same enemy, the Inca, all "sneak attacks", and all very distracting to ultimately catching the Abyssinians. The last war was as I was rapidly catching up to launching my spaceship (which the Abyssianians had already launched), and ultimately was enough to really prevent me from winning the game.
Some overall observations:
1. The new civics are a step in the right direction, but some are very unbalanced. I will edit the post later to give specifics. The future options in particular create too much separation and almost an impossible way for someone who is behind to catch up. I think the future options should have some negative cost associated with them (happiness penalties, culture penalties or scientific penalties). There have been several suggestions already in this thread on suggested edits.
2. I really like the Future buildings and units. In my last war, using dreadnaughts was a lot of fun, as well as the fusion naval units. The AI really has improved, is using nukes and can run a very harassing campaign. As it is too easy to play defense on your own continent (which is what I did), they really did not stand a chance of holding any city for an extended period of time, but they would require me to mobilize enough to distract from running a full throttle science and spaceship economy.
3. The AI really likes to use the nukes. The only other major war (which I was not involved in) was between Abyssinia and Portugal. At the opening of hostilities, I think the Aybssinians launched 10-15 nukes, about half of which were intercepted by SDI, and the other half effectively eliminated all effective competition. And they kept throwing them into the fray on subsequent turns until the Portuguese capitulated. Incidentally, I would be nuked 4 times during my wars with the Inca, returning the favor twice to their navy.
4. The game seems to run faster, even in the late game, even on Huge maps. Have not had a sniff of a CTD, which is good.
5. The AI is very stingy from wanting to trade strategic resources, esp. in the modern age. The fact that X civilization had 9 ammunition and would not barter it at all was very difficult to manage. I think 3-4 additional buildings (maybe much later than the original buildings) would be in order.... a synthetic ammunition factory, a synthetic oil factory, a synthetic coal factory, and a synthetic metals (alumininum) factory. (all similar to the synthetic rubber factory).
Maybe the techs to release these factories would be 2 or 3 techs away from the original building -- again, to give advantage to the nations that have the original materials, but not a permanent advantage.
6. Oil refinery -- In my second game, I had offshore oil, and it took forever to get a platform out there. By the time I did, I could no longer build a refinery. I'm not sure if that is an error or not. Again, maybe this gets solved if there are synthetic factories?
Anyway, awesome mod -- keep up the good work!
I was able to get through 2 games over the last week. My first game, on Emperor, was a full game (starting in the Ancient age), learning some critical lessons on the way and ended up losing the space race by 15 turns. The second, on Prince, starting in the Industrial age, I was able to win the space race going away. The first was by far the more intriguing game -- the second was to test some theories about the game. Both games, no revolution, but with Barbarian Civ, all other options turned on -- with cultural and time victories disabled.
I will quickly describe my first game (on Emperor) -- I started on an island with the only indigenous civilization. During the early game, 2 barbarian Civs appeared and were summarily crushed by my forces (I was England). The was on a standard sized map, with 7 (I believe) indigenous Civs.
I was without one very critical resource during the game -- sulfur, and could not build an ammunition factory. By the mid game, each of the continents came under effective control of one nation (+ vassals), and the game turned into a big scientific race. Abyssinia had the early tech lead, and by the time I met all of the contestants, I was running 5th or 6th out of 7. Through running a SE and really focusing on city specialization (but not nearly enough as I will highlight later), I was able to get to a solid 2nd by the later Modern age.
I would face 4 wars throughout, all against the same enemy, the Inca, all "sneak attacks", and all very distracting to ultimately catching the Abyssinians. The last war was as I was rapidly catching up to launching my spaceship (which the Abyssianians had already launched), and ultimately was enough to really prevent me from winning the game.
Some overall observations:
1. The new civics are a step in the right direction, but some are very unbalanced. I will edit the post later to give specifics. The future options in particular create too much separation and almost an impossible way for someone who is behind to catch up. I think the future options should have some negative cost associated with them (happiness penalties, culture penalties or scientific penalties). There have been several suggestions already in this thread on suggested edits.
2. I really like the Future buildings and units. In my last war, using dreadnaughts was a lot of fun, as well as the fusion naval units. The AI really has improved, is using nukes and can run a very harassing campaign. As it is too easy to play defense on your own continent (which is what I did), they really did not stand a chance of holding any city for an extended period of time, but they would require me to mobilize enough to distract from running a full throttle science and spaceship economy.
3. The AI really likes to use the nukes. The only other major war (which I was not involved in) was between Abyssinia and Portugal. At the opening of hostilities, I think the Aybssinians launched 10-15 nukes, about half of which were intercepted by SDI, and the other half effectively eliminated all effective competition. And they kept throwing them into the fray on subsequent turns until the Portuguese capitulated. Incidentally, I would be nuked 4 times during my wars with the Inca, returning the favor twice to their navy.
4. The game seems to run faster, even in the late game, even on Huge maps. Have not had a sniff of a CTD, which is good.
5. The AI is very stingy from wanting to trade strategic resources, esp. in the modern age. The fact that X civilization had 9 ammunition and would not barter it at all was very difficult to manage. I think 3-4 additional buildings (maybe much later than the original buildings) would be in order.... a synthetic ammunition factory, a synthetic oil factory, a synthetic coal factory, and a synthetic metals (alumininum) factory. (all similar to the synthetic rubber factory).
Maybe the techs to release these factories would be 2 or 3 techs away from the original building -- again, to give advantage to the nations that have the original materials, but not a permanent advantage.
6. Oil refinery -- In my second game, I had offshore oil, and it took forever to get a platform out there. By the time I did, I could no longer build a refinery. I'm not sure if that is an error or not. Again, maybe this gets solved if there are synthetic factories?
Anyway, awesome mod -- keep up the good work!
CMKMStephens
Serious.
You can still implement it, just not by specific buildings. Subsidised and Socialised already have Medium, and High maintenence respectively. Perhaps a -%
as well. Why on earth does Subsidised have a cash bonus anyway?Ah, another idea: New tech of 'Exclusive Economic Zones' - basically it allows you to extend your borders over ocean tiles, can build a 'deep sea fishery' for +
Based on: http://www.crownminerals.govt.nz/cm...offshore-exploration-estate?searchterm=basins
http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAn.../MarineMinerals/1/ENZ-Resources/Standard/1/en
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Going from one Civic to another can be devastating food wise. Mid 1700's and flourishing cities of 23-29 pop can be "starving" with certain Trade Civics (Mercantile in my book is to be avoided at all costs for the way I play).
I'm finding that only some of the early civics are worth while for any length of time. Now that is with the caveat that I have not yet made it past 1800's in my 2 test games for 2.501beta. So the later Civics are untried as of yet. Most of the Civics for Classical thru Renaisance are tricky and touchy at best on 1st impressions.
Only by more game play will the true balances come to light for me.
So I guess what I'm saying is that so far I'm being surprised and pushed to adjust my play style. All in all that is a good thing. 2.501 IS more of a challenge thru the Ren. Era.
JosEPh
I'm finding that only some of the early civics are worth while for any length of time. Now that is with the caveat that I have not yet made it past 1800's in my 2 test games for 2.501beta. So the later Civics are untried as of yet. Most of the Civics for Classical thru Renaisance are tricky and touchy at best on 1st impressions.
Only by more game play will the true balances come to light for me.
So I guess what I'm saying is that so far I'm being surprised and pushed to adjust my play style. All in all that is a good thing. 2.501 IS more of a challenge thru the Ren. Era.
JosEPh
CMKMStephens
Serious.
On Monarch level I finished Australia 2.5 with a domination victory as Dutch in the early modern era (Took 2/5ths the continent from the bottom right corner, conquered NZ, all the Eastern islands, Papua New Guinea as well - the domination victory came when every civ left on Australia declared war and I started pushing them back). My current game is an Islands (Many extras, many smalls), playing as Byzantines, winning by 700 score, mid-Industrial.
Since getting another 2GB of Ram (though I can only use 1.25 more thanks to XP), and switiching that 'optimization' nvidia thing in the BIOS, and maybe any fixes in 2.5 itself, I've been reaching modern era on huge maps. I start getting MAFs in the industrial era if I try to reload a save game, and sometimes just randomly, but if I reload I can play right past them.
Since getting another 2GB of Ram (though I can only use 1.25 more thanks to XP), and switiching that 'optimization' nvidia thing in the BIOS, and maybe any fixes in 2.5 itself, I've been reaching modern era on huge maps. I start getting MAFs in the industrial era if I try to reload a save game, and sometimes just randomly, but if I reload I can play right past them.
Its on the trade route yield, not on the overall production of the city. I thought that too, but switch to slavery asap for the +1 food and +1 hammers on farms and mines.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Yeah, change Barter for Mercantile for a Real Wakeup call on trade route yields.
I think Mercantile is too big of a revenue loser and throw in lost food now, WOW that stings!
JosEPh
I think Mercantile is too big of a revenue loser and throw in lost food now, WOW that stings!
JosEPh
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 266
Just wondering, but is it possible to change the favorite civics for each leader since there are so many new options on the table?
Alexander -> Despotism (he was a quick and grab conquerer)
Asoka -> State Church
Augustus Caesar -> Monarchy
Charlemagne -> Free Church (he was crowned by the Pope)
Churchill -> Parliament
Cyrus -> Despotism or Monarchy
Darius -> Public Works
De Gaulle -> Parliament
Elizabeth -> Monarchy
Frederick -> Despotism (his description calls him an "enlightened despot")
Gandhi -> Proletariat
Hannibal -> Despotism
Hatsheput -> Divine Cult
Isabella -> Intolerant (Spanish Inquisition)
Julius Caesar -> Monarchy (or Senate if you want him to represent Republican Rome and Augustus to represent Imperial Rome)
Justinian -> Free Church
Kublai Khan -> Proletariat (according to his description)
Lincoln -> President or Nationalist
Mehmed II -> Despotism (see the description of the siege of Constantinople...)
Pericles -> Democracy
Peter -> Vassalage (turned from aristocracy to meritocracy)
Qin Shi Huang -> Despotism
Ramesses -> Divine Cult or Slavery
Roosevelt -> Public Works
Saladin -> State Church
Stalin -> Communist
Suppiluliuma -> Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites#Hittite_government)
Suyravarman -> State religion to Buddhism
Tokugawa -> Nationalist (no foreign trade routes with it instead of Mercantile)
Washington -> Federal
Zara Yaqob -> State Church
Alexander -> Despotism (he was a quick and grab conquerer)
Asoka -> State Church
Augustus Caesar -> Monarchy
Charlemagne -> Free Church (he was crowned by the Pope)
Churchill -> Parliament
Cyrus -> Despotism or Monarchy
Darius -> Public Works
De Gaulle -> Parliament
Elizabeth -> Monarchy
Frederick -> Despotism (his description calls him an "enlightened despot")
Gandhi -> Proletariat
Hannibal -> Despotism
Hatsheput -> Divine Cult
Isabella -> Intolerant (Spanish Inquisition)
Julius Caesar -> Monarchy (or Senate if you want him to represent Republican Rome and Augustus to represent Imperial Rome)
Justinian -> Free Church
Kublai Khan -> Proletariat (according to his description)
Lincoln -> President or Nationalist
Mehmed II -> Despotism (see the description of the siege of Constantinople...)
Pericles -> Democracy
Peter -> Vassalage (turned from aristocracy to meritocracy)
Qin Shi Huang -> Despotism
Ramesses -> Divine Cult or Slavery
Roosevelt -> Public Works
Saladin -> State Church
Stalin -> Communist
Suppiluliuma -> Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites#Hittite_government)
Suyravarman -> State religion to Buddhism
Tokugawa -> Nationalist (no foreign trade routes with it instead of Mercantile)
Washington -> Federal
Zara Yaqob -> State Church
lordrune
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 592
Agree, but I'm talking to mid-late game, when trade yields (with bonuses) are the bulk of your empire's economy anyway.
I wanted to share my impressions of this multiplayer. We've had OOS problems on and off with the ROM mods and started to have some bad ones with this mod. However, we went back to "My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword" and renamed that and let the mod start over and things are much better. Turns out we'd left old junk from previous versions of the mod there and it needed to just clean it out. We do well with 4 or less players, but start to get a lot of OOS problems when we have 5 or more players and even worse with raging barbarians when there is a lot of action (movement of men and battles).
What is the status of this mod on multiplayer? I know that the Revolutions mod isn't fully multiplayer - mainly because of the popup windows that all players share - and he intends to redo that. We aren't as concerned about perfect balance of civics as we are just being able to play our game without having to stop to resync too often.
What is the status of this mod on multiplayer? I know that the Revolutions mod isn't fully multiplayer - mainly because of the popup windows that all players share - and he intends to redo that. We aren't as concerned about perfect balance of civics as we are just being able to play our game without having to stop to resync too often.
Initial observations:
Civics bonuses still too high
Tone down barter, and there needs to be another civic at trade or currency, like "Coin Economy"
(On another note, I always though that the currency tech should be split up. into "Coinage" (reqs. bronze working & trade)and "Currency" (paper currency, reqs. paper tech)
There are only two civics that let you spend gold to finish production? I'd like to see more. I do miss the early ability to do it with Democracy, (albeit I used to do it even earlier via getting the pyramids, good change on that)
Slavery might be a little bit too powerful, but only a little.
Is there anyway to turn off the civic based buildings bonuses when you switch away from the civic they are tied to after building them? As it stands, it encourages one to temp switch to a civic, build those buildings for their bonuses then switch back.
Civics bonuses still too high
Tone down barter, and there needs to be another civic at trade or currency, like "Coin Economy"
(On another note, I always though that the currency tech should be split up. into "Coinage" (reqs. bronze working & trade)and "Currency" (paper currency, reqs. paper tech)
There are only two civics that let you spend gold to finish production? I'd like to see more. I do miss the early ability to do it with Democracy, (albeit I used to do it even earlier via getting the pyramids, good change on that)
Slavery might be a little bit too powerful, but only a little.
Is there anyway to turn off the civic based buildings bonuses when you switch away from the civic they are tied to after building them? As it stands, it encourages one to temp switch to a civic, build those buildings for their bonuses then switch back.
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 266
I would agree with this. With Barter we could put in a -25% or -50% trade yield penalty. It shouldn't make much of a difference in the early game since most players will be on Slavery when trade routes get opened up, and it makes it less viable late game. It is meant to be a flavorful filler civic.
I would recommend replacing Green with something like Capitalist or Free Enterprise to represent Roman trade policy, which was not as advanced as modern capitalism but was generally characterized by free trade and low taxes, but the government intervened whenever it deemed necessary instead of following strict guidelines (Regulated) or not at all (Laissez-Faire). It could be tied in with a cottage or trade economy while Slavery is a farm/production economy civic. It gives a little bit of uniqueness in the ancient ages, while Green would probably be ignored in favor of the four other modern economy civics. Green could always be moved to the Future column.
That is very unrealistic with Democracy, as public financing is an economic policy not a political system. Right now all the modern capitalist civics (Laissez-Faire, Regulated, Corporatist) have the option, not just two. Perhaps we could remove the quicker improvement building from Public Works, add in a small penalty and give the feature to that civic as well?
The main intent was to turn off the incentives for running a cottage economy early on as it is historically inaccurate by giving incentives to run a farm economy. Compared to the other economy civics, I don't think it is too powerful. The culture and research penalty could hurt a lot in the beginning.
Good question. It would be great if there was.
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