Ogaburan
Warlord
Maybe u will recognize this thread: lol
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=302805&page=12
post # 234
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=302805&page=12
post # 234
Version 2.6 discussion
- Thread starter zappara
- Start date
konradcabral
Prince
I was playing the 2.52 version, and notice that Grenadiers ans Cuirassiers doesn't require sulphur. Is that right?
Sea movement might still need +1 movement from 1 more tech - more opinions about current sea movement changes please so I can tweak them!Okay, I looked the list of changes over, and so far, the only problem I have is with ships moving a little slow in the ocean. But hey, at least some of the modern units don't have that issue.
I'm all for realism, but um, this makes exploring the world a little more complicated on Pangean maps. Magellen's voyage with this mod would take 200 years.
And military costs increasing, rather insanely. Now, I'm all for balance, but when a modern era tank requires more hammers than world wonders, there's a balance issue.
Now, I can build tanks usually in 1 to 3 turns normaly. Now, with a 4 times increase in price, that rather small amount becomes a hair shy of 600. At least, I think that's 4 times their current cost.
Again, tanks shouldn't be more expensive to build than nuclear power plants, or equally expensive structures.
Military unit costs has been an "issue" for long time now and there's few things from game settings that I haven't returned yet from earlier versions such as unit cost decreases from era advancements (normal BtS feature). Also the national wonders which increase military production by 100% were useless before but now you should consider building them more often... plus civics can increase military production in your cities by almost 100% too. The costs should be so high that only cities with high production and 100% military production wonders should be able to build units in 1 turn - I hope this has been achieved with the current changes. Please keep posting test results about these... Note that during tests you should use standard map size and noble difficulty as these have the most equal settings for human and AI players.
Now does this mean that I'll adjust building costs too? Maybe...
Hmm, maybe tanks should be immune to collateral damage from siege units?
I'll probably make most religious promotions require Leader promotion (ie. Great General) and in some cases available from religious buildings. Suggestions about them are appreciated.
1. Saves aren't usually compatible after such huge changes between versions. That's why I keep different versions installed in Mods folder and I'll just rename the version I want to use to "Rise of Mankind" (because the mod won't work correctly if named differently).
2. You probably experienced Partisans random event. It gives units based on city's culture rate so you probably had the highest culture amount in that city so the troops joined your civ. There's thread about this in Beyond the Sword forum section.
Will check it as I'm redesigning whole industrial->future era ship lines because now community here has made enough unit graphics for various ship classes that weren't available earlier. For example one upgrade path line goes now like this: Ironclad->Pre-Dreadnought->Dreadnought (WW1 era)->Battleship (WW2)->Modern Battleship->Fusion Battleship. There's some other new ship unit classes as well.
Other changes since the alpha test release have been so far:
Completely redesigned modular crusade system
- king richard's crusade
- 3 different chapter house (St.John, Hospitaller, Templar), req. crusade
- 2 new world wonders, req. different chapter houses
- 1 new national wonder, req. one type chapter house
- 6 new crusade unit types, each enabled by different building/wonder
- only available for christianity
I know this is a huge boost for Christianity but also think it should be this way for historical accuracy. The question now is that have other religions had similar religious factions throughout the history and possibly similarly used units?
Mercenary Infantry, modern era unit (there's no real mercenary buy system but the unit has cheap cost + extra gold cost and each instance of this unit increases the base cost so the more civs build these, the more the unit will cost -> simulates higher costs of finding mercenaries). This is rather experimental unit type at this point and you'll get to test it in next alpha test version.
I've tried the 2.6 alpha linked earlier and it seems quite nice. Still haven't made it to the modern era, but I did notice a few things:
Events that alter the attributed of a plot (increased hammers, commerce etc) leave a note on the field, however the text contains the key name rather than the key value, so what you see is something akin to "TXT_KEY_SIGN_FOR" on your plots.
Also, Toqui Lautaro (Mapuche) has no introductionary text when you meet him first time.
About the mines and unhappiness, I really like the idea. Being a mine worker isn't bound to make you all sorts of happy, and it gives an extra thing to balance. Also, you're unlikely to be able to really push production early on just with mines. However, I do think it would make more sense if it was only mines that were being worked that generated unhappyness - I often find I sit my workers in a town until I can afford to expand infrastructure rather than pre-build mines. It should be possible since there are already checks for similar things with regards to them turning into shaft mines. Then again, I don't know exactly how much work it would entail.
There are also some things about religions that do seem to change the game rather a lot. Due to the strength of Amun Ra with its national wonders, it's easily one of the best religions to get early on. It is however also so early that unless you start with Stone Tools, it's virtually impossible to found. I'm not so much against that, it's another aspect of choosing your civilization, but I'd really like to see national wonders added to other religions as well.
The religious promotions to units seem like a very nice aspect too, but with all these things I fear it might be putting too much emphasis on founding religions. It should be noted I'm not actually certain if these require the holy city in your civilization. However, I think the best idea here is to allow these promotions to units built in cities that have the religion if the religion is the state religion regardless of whether or not you have the holy city.
In theory, that would make AIs go for civics other than Folklore if they can see a benefit to it. Then again, they might not actually be able to see that benefit.
So far I do think the promotions are balanced well enough and providing a small enough bonus to allow them on all units. There are in my opinion enough general-only promotions already, and I like that each individual trait of these promotions are generally less than or at least only equal to other promotions that they feel well rounded. You're still fairly unlikely to use a Gentleman promotion on a War Elephant, and if you do you know you have a specific role for it. I like that.
All in all I think it's some great upgrades you have in store and I do hope the religious bonuses to units, buildings and wonders will be spread amongst the religions to give a more balanced feel.
Edit: Forgot to mention that it's now possible to found several religions again. I don't know if it's a bug or rebalancing.
Events that alter the attributed of a plot (increased hammers, commerce etc) leave a note on the field, however the text contains the key name rather than the key value, so what you see is something akin to "TXT_KEY_SIGN_FOR" on your plots.
Also, Toqui Lautaro (Mapuche) has no introductionary text when you meet him first time.
About the mines and unhappiness, I really like the idea. Being a mine worker isn't bound to make you all sorts of happy, and it gives an extra thing to balance. Also, you're unlikely to be able to really push production early on just with mines. However, I do think it would make more sense if it was only mines that were being worked that generated unhappyness - I often find I sit my workers in a town until I can afford to expand infrastructure rather than pre-build mines. It should be possible since there are already checks for similar things with regards to them turning into shaft mines. Then again, I don't know exactly how much work it would entail.
There are also some things about religions that do seem to change the game rather a lot. Due to the strength of Amun Ra with its national wonders, it's easily one of the best religions to get early on. It is however also so early that unless you start with Stone Tools, it's virtually impossible to found. I'm not so much against that, it's another aspect of choosing your civilization, but I'd really like to see national wonders added to other religions as well.
The religious promotions to units seem like a very nice aspect too, but with all these things I fear it might be putting too much emphasis on founding religions. It should be noted I'm not actually certain if these require the holy city in your civilization. However, I think the best idea here is to allow these promotions to units built in cities that have the religion if the religion is the state religion regardless of whether or not you have the holy city.
In theory, that would make AIs go for civics other than Folklore if they can see a benefit to it. Then again, they might not actually be able to see that benefit.
So far I do think the promotions are balanced well enough and providing a small enough bonus to allow them on all units. There are in my opinion enough general-only promotions already, and I like that each individual trait of these promotions are generally less than or at least only equal to other promotions that they feel well rounded. You're still fairly unlikely to use a Gentleman promotion on a War Elephant, and if you do you know you have a specific role for it. I like that.
All in all I think it's some great upgrades you have in store and I do hope the religious bonuses to units, buildings and wonders will be spread amongst the religions to give a more balanced feel.
Edit: Forgot to mention that it's now possible to found several religions again. I don't know if it's a bug or rebalancing.
jacktannery
Prince
To continue on from this, I am now approaching the modern era and have additional things to add:
-I disagree with poster above regarding the problem with limited naval movement. I think the current system is excellent, however this is because I play 'Start as minors', which allows my trireme's to get two points of experience easily, and therefore allows them to move 2 spaces.
-In the renaissance era, I am as per usual researching techs far too quickly. As in previous versions of RoM, my average tech research speed is a tech per two turns, playing on emperor & Epic speed. This is far too quick. It should be noted that I put my espionage and culture sliders at 10% each, not because this is useful (it is not) but in order to slow down tech to one every two turns.
-Of particular concern in terms of your proposed changes to Christianity and the Crusade wonder is that, as per usual, I have obsoleted this wonder the turn before I build it. Happens every game I play (Emperor/Epic). I dread to think what it would be like on quick. Once I managed to build it and use it for two turns before obsolescence. I would recommend making this wonder available earlier.
-The tech speed increase really becomes overtly noticeable at about the time you get the option of liberalism (free tech) and Leonardo de Vinci (two free tech). I would recommend removing both of these, as a starter, but really techs need to be made MUCH more expensive from every era after Ancient, at least on Epic speed anyways.
-Still no crashes!
Ogaburan
Warlord
1. I cant load it with the earlier version... i figured it wont be compatible, give me some credit. Anyway the interface disappeared... and since than i can only play 2.6 and not any of the earliest 2.x versions... strange but i bet its my fault some how...
2. I never held that city, plus now revolts in the Iroquois Cities join me, again cities i never held. But i guess the lands are +85% mine. Anyway its quite an EXPLOIT. The Mali have only one city, and every couple of turnes they "generate" a few spermans and once every 10 turns or so i get another great general... plus i get free maps form the villagers... i think its too much this even, at least in earlier periods, the "partisans" more than doubled my army... had to delete some even...
3. this is definitely a bug! My civs change from democracy to slavery... for no reason. At least none i can think of. Me people are happy, just finished a golden age and was building agoras all over the place. I even check on WB for any enemies spies in my lands and there arent
This is really disturbing, if u want i will upload my save so u can check it out (and also admire my glory
)
Jabarto
Emperor
I have some ideas for new buildings.
Textile Manufactory (available with Guilds)
+3% Commerce with Silk
+3% Commerce with Sheep
+3% Commerce with Cotton
Offshore Platform (available with ?)
+1 Production from water tiles
Brewery (Available with Machinery; requires wine resource to build)
+1 Wealth
+1 Happiness
Town Watch (Available with Code of Laws; obsoletes with Marxism)
+2 Espionage
+10% Espionage Defense
+10% City Defense
+10% Maintenance
Textile Manufactory (available with Guilds)
+3% Commerce with Silk
+3% Commerce with Sheep
+3% Commerce with Cotton
Offshore Platform (available with ?)
+1 Production from water tiles
Brewery (Available with Machinery; requires wine resource to build)
+1 Wealth
+1 Happiness
Town Watch (Available with Code of Laws; obsoletes with Marxism)
+2 Espionage
+10% Espionage Defense
+10% City Defense
+10% Maintenance
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I would really Love to know how you can get your tech speed up so fast! I can barely maintain a 50% level with out going bankrupt! And only the ancient era techs can I get in 1-2 turns in the Medival era. Techs like Guilds take 7 -15 turns If I can maintain the 50% research level.
So far in my 2nd test game at Noble level, Epic speed on a Huge Archipelago world, where sea travel is essential, I have just gotten caravels and its already the 1600's! Of the 7AI I started the game with I've only just met 3 of them and 3 minors from Barbcivs. And of those I've met I lead in tech. It's much more difficult to keep a city growing and productive with the added unhappiness of Mines. My Capital city is only a 16 pop and by prior versions I should be hitting the low to mid 20 pop by now.
It's definitely a bigger challenge with this version. I fear that when I finally get to the modern Era it will be well into the early 21st Century. Everything seems to be taking much longer to do and develop. And the AI's seem to be hindered by the mine unhappiness too.
I'm currently taking out my 1st neighbor, Tokugawa, and he is still only a minor Civ. This means he doesn't even have Writing by 1600AD. He has 5 cities on a large island that he has to himself. He had iron and I didn't. So I rushed some axemen and archers and a Settler to get a deposit he hadn't developed yet. Once i secured it, after losing the city once, then I could finally get the Macemen I needed. Fortunately I found a smaller island close to mine that had Elephants. Horse Archers Suck any more. They used to rule. So Mace, Crossbow and Elephants are riding galleys across the strait to take over Japan in 1600AD!
JosEPh
"If it was only Shaft Mine, then unhappiness would gradually increase for city when Mines upgrade to Shaft Mines. Currently it's on Mines as well just because I want to see what you all think about - can you balance your civilization early game so that you can keep your cities happy?"
Well, I like to play on Deity since that's the only level where the AI retain a chance into the late game (I like to play Space Race, and RoM AI's tend to hit a tech wall when the light-bulb well runs dry. That and I think they starve themselves with Oil Refineries and IPorts.). Mines causing unhappiness really isn't practical in the early game at Deity. Shaft Mines might work (or some Industrial Techs upping mine unhappiness - that's when people started realizing that mines were making them unhappy), but with nerfing Bazaar, Brothel, and Arena it will be tight.
Very excited about higher unit costs. I think this will cut down on crashes and make the late game less of a drudge.
Well, I like to play on Deity since that's the only level where the AI retain a chance into the late game (I like to play Space Race, and RoM AI's tend to hit a tech wall when the light-bulb well runs dry. That and I think they starve themselves with Oil Refineries and IPorts.). Mines causing unhappiness really isn't practical in the early game at Deity. Shaft Mines might work (or some Industrial Techs upping mine unhappiness - that's when people started realizing that mines were making them unhappy), but with nerfing Bazaar, Brothel, and Arena it will be tight.
Very excited about higher unit costs. I think this will cut down on crashes and make the late game less of a drudge.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
With Brothel now needing 50% Culture to get a 2nd happy face, who's going to spend enough to get Culture rate to 50%? I can't. RoM has become less "friendly" to Cultural Victory over the last few iterations.
And with arena giving no happy face but only 1 culture then needing 25% culture to get a happy they're worthless to me.
Coliseum is borderline useful.
As for ships; you get your bonuses "If" you stay close to shore but not out on the open ocean. Even circumnavigating the world my caravels get 6 movement (with appropriate techs) but in reality only get 3 close to shore and 2 on open water. But sometimes 3 on open if in familiar waters. I find that a bit confusing and inconsistent. I understand the Storms slowing you down.
Not sure if upping the cost on some units isn't hurting the AI. 269 gold for taking an axeman to mace is steep. Especially with money generating items (techs, buildings, etc.) giving less amounts.
And I can't play on Deity either. Noble and Prince push me pretty hard, mostly cause I like to build everything. But to win on higher levels you have to let certain builds/techs/units go by the wayside. This, to me, makes the game too scripted. You have to take "this" path or you can't win. And that is why I started playing RoM way back when it was version.80. You had multiple paths to victory, and you still got challenged.
I'm definitely being challenged but the pacing seems off. Old RoM habits die hard, huh.
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I agree with this. I am lucky to have enough money to avoid the high taxes which cause revolutions until very late in the game. I consider myself lucky if I can have tech at 50% and espionage at 5% until the Renassiance when I start raking in the money.
I also agree with the comments about "King Richard's Crusade" being obsolete before I can build it. So much so that I have given up researching the relivant tech.
As far as I can see the only way of getting a cultural victory in RoM is to change the maximum number of wonders you can build in a city.
Btw, I like that you no longer need to build the UN Mission in your capital. I often would get to this tech only to discover that I had already built the maximum number of national wonders in my capital
Which leads to something needed in BTS and RoM - a counter which tells you how many wonders and national wonders there are already in a city and a way of making obsolete wonders and national wonders not count towards the total built
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
So you are not having it where you could buy unique units from other civilizations? Cause if you did you could always have them be bought for extremely higher price than what the original civilization payed for them. For instance "Samurai" from Japan could be bought as mercenary "Ronin".
Another thing that has been bugging me is just how much everything inflates around the renaissance.
I'm well aware that for historical reasons that is a part of it, but I feel especially with the economy civics you're more or less forced into keeping Barter until you get Free Market. Slavery is only rarely an option and definately very situational, but the main thing that Barter does is lock you out of foreign trade routes until a very certain point in the game where you no longer deal with one gold per 5% tax rate but instead with ten gold per 5% tax rate.
The inflation (not the Civ term) suddenly goes haywire at that point and you've suddenly got a lot of money on your hands while research is booming.
I feel that adding an economic civic earlier on with access to foreign trade routes would be beneficial for game balance and help smooth out progression. Free Market still has the ability to hurry production for gold as its selling point and will in no way be diminished by it. Also, the amount of foreign trade routes are restricted somewhat by the amount of buildings you can build to increase the number in the earlier parts of the game, so I don't really see any game balancing issues there.
Of course that means making up a new civic and deciding which one to remove in its place, but this is really one of the big stumbling points for me currently.
I might go make a game with a load of coastal cities to see if I can make up for the losses from Slavery with a boatload of foreign trade routes...
Edit:
Another thing about the mines: Perhaps put it at half a point of unhappiness per mine? That seems possible with terrain features for unhealthiness so it should be possible for this too?
I'm well aware that for historical reasons that is a part of it, but I feel especially with the economy civics you're more or less forced into keeping Barter until you get Free Market. Slavery is only rarely an option and definately very situational, but the main thing that Barter does is lock you out of foreign trade routes until a very certain point in the game where you no longer deal with one gold per 5% tax rate but instead with ten gold per 5% tax rate.
The inflation (not the Civ term) suddenly goes haywire at that point and you've suddenly got a lot of money on your hands while research is booming.
I feel that adding an economic civic earlier on with access to foreign trade routes would be beneficial for game balance and help smooth out progression. Free Market still has the ability to hurry production for gold as its selling point and will in no way be diminished by it. Also, the amount of foreign trade routes are restricted somewhat by the amount of buildings you can build to increase the number in the earlier parts of the game, so I don't really see any game balancing issues there.
Of course that means making up a new civic and deciding which one to remove in its place, but this is really one of the big stumbling points for me currently.
I might go make a game with a load of coastal cities to see if I can make up for the losses from Slavery with a boatload of foreign trade routes...
Edit:
Another thing about the mines: Perhaps put it at half a point of unhappiness per mine? That seems possible with terrain features for unhealthiness so it should be possible for this too?
Which leads to something needed in BTS and RoM - a counter which tells you how many wonders and national wonders there are already in a city and a way of making obsolete wonders and national wonders not count towards the total built
Yes, Yes, Yes!!!! I would love to have a counter. One of the reasons that I changed to an unlimited number of wonders in my cities is because I never knew when I was going to hit the limit.
From a game playing point of view I agree that obsolete wonders shouldn't count towards the total. However, from a reality point of view it doesn't make sense. For example., the Pyramids are still around, adding to Egypt's "culture" and tourism even though the benefits of the Pyramids have long since disappeared.
Ogaburan
Warlord
i dont think there should be any limit...
I know it adds allot to the game, but i dont think its realistic, if u can build them... why be limited by location?
I know it adds allot to the game, but i dont think its realistic, if u can build them... why be limited by location?
I guess one way around the wonder spamming you could virtually do is to only add culture for the first 4. The remaining wonders would retain their normal effect but add no fixed amount of culture. That should alleviate a lot of the issues with it.
An alternative to combat wonder stacking for massive wealth/hammer/science output would be to categorise wonders and only allow four in each category, but I fear that may be too complex in both gameplay terms and implementation.
An alternative to combat wonder stacking for massive wealth/hammer/science output would be to categorise wonders and only allow four in each category, but I fear that may be too complex in both gameplay terms and implementation.
konradcabral
Prince
About arena, colosseum and brothel: Why have Arena AND Colosseum? If we are trying to bring down the happiness provided, why not just cut one of them (they serve for the almost same purpose) and bring back the happiness boni as it were before? This way we could bring back too the brothel happiness without depending of the culture slider.
About mines' unhappiness: Only Shaft Mines should give unhappiness (or 0,5 for regular mines, if it's possible). We can manage our cities with the early unhappy mines , but can AI? Besides, someone said wisely that people only "realize" that mines make them unhappy recently in history.
About Wonders Limit: I'm against it. But it's a configurable parameter for us, so why bother? But a counter in the city screen would be nice.
About mines' unhappiness: Only Shaft Mines should give unhappiness (or 0,5 for regular mines, if it's possible). We can manage our cities with the early unhappy mines , but can AI? Besides, someone said wisely that people only "realize" that mines make them unhappy recently in history.
About Wonders Limit: I'm against it. But it's a configurable parameter for us, so why bother? But a counter in the city screen would be nice.
DavidB1111
Not-so-smart Man
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2008
- Messages
- 662
Um, okay. I'll begrungingly accept the military costs then.
I'll let you know if I really have any issues with it. Although the logic behind 1 unit a turn makes sense in the earlier years when 20 years a turn is prevalent. I'm guessing it took 270 years to build the sphinx, but a dozen warriors shouldn't take the same amount of time. Now, Tanks, in real life, we can mass produce them, or at the very least get them built in a 6 month period. Now, why yes, that equals to building it in 1 turn, I may agree that cranking out tanks may be bad. Just don't make their costs greater than the end game world wonders.
I don't know what a hammer is, but I don't think tanks should be using hammers, anyway.
Oh, and most of the civics that increase the amount of military production have some bad side effects.
Save for Fascism/Police State/whatever.As for Noble difficulty being balanced, I don't think that's possible. It's half-way through the difficulty selection, and it's annoyingly difficult for someone like me who's used to easy. It would be like me switching to a game on Deity.
Keep in mind I've played on Settler since Civ 2.
That won't change too soon.Good rule of thumb, all difficulties should be balanced
Also, yes, Tanks and most future era units should be immune to collateral damage. Tanks would destroy a catapult before it fires even once, so yeah.
As nice as it is to be able to adjust the rather lofty wonder limit per city via XML, I'd prefer it to be a custom game option, just like the limited religion was.
Also, if anything, a mine should increase unhealthiness, not unhappiness. I don't know why anyone would be unhappy about a mine, unless it was a Strip Mine.
Zappara, don't make me zap you with my Tesla Tanks. People should be more unhappy with Coal and Gas, and Electric/nuclear Powerplants.
