Version 2.6 discussion

[Bezhukov]

Joseph - build more workers. Work improved tiles. That's been the winning strategy since the original civ.

As for Espionage - don't overlook Jails. And make sure you're spending more against the big baddies than the little. I rarely run any Espionage percentage.

 

[zappara]

To Zappara? Hey, I posted a lot of stuff, will you take a look at it and reply?

I do try to read everything but I'll have to admit that I don't always have time to reply to all messages or comment some suggestions (I read all new posts couple times per week). And sometimes it might take a while from me to write reply as I "think & test" some suggested ideas before writing replies about them.

I guess what I'm saying is that as the Mod gets more complicated/difficult I'm getting uncomfortable. Which is not a bad thing. But what bothers me most is that the "pace" of the Mod is making everything take longer. In my current game of 2.6a I'm at 1851AD and I just got Frigates and Musketmen! This is easily 200+ years later than when I would get them in even RoM2.52. That bothers me. Is my play that bad? Or is there something Mod wise that is the cause? Am I the only one experiencing this?

Change is good, but can also be disturbing. Maybe it's just "growing" pains for an "old and slow.......player".

Well, this test version shifts balance towards slower pace but that can be tweaked. For example based on reports in this thread, I've this week removed unhappiness from Mines but left it to Shaft Mines and I have returned BtS default settings for unit training era percentages. The more (detailed) reports I get, the more I can tweak the values. But you'll have to also remember that one game can be totally different just because of the map layout (good starting position vs. bad position etc.).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Joseph - build more workers. Work improved tiles. That's been the winning strategy since the original civ.

As for Espionage - don't overlook Jails. And make sure you're spending more against the big baddies than the little. I rarely run any Espionage percentage.

As soon as the 1st enemy spy shows up and Jails, Meeting Halls and Brothels are available I build them. And also place a defending spy in every coastal city.

With the penalty to mines in this version my mine building is 75% less than previous versions. I do work my tiles, but until Lumbermills and Watermills become available total hammer production is down with less mines. I've even built 100% more windmills this game. So I am exploring all avenues.

As for spending more against the "big baddies than the little", I'm not sure I follow/understand what you mean bezhukov.

The more (detailed) reports I get, the more I can tweak the values. But you'll have to also remember that one game can be totally different just because of the map layout (good starting position vs. bad position etc.).

This I do understand, and when ever you've introduced a new version I'll play test it on an archipelago world, Huge, Epic speed, 7-10 AI. This particular map forces you to use all naval techs were land based maps don't. It also gives the Starting AI and Barbs a longer life to develop their Civs/empires. Not so easy to "Rush" a neighbors Capital City if you have to have Fluyts to get there. So I feel it gives a broader test range to check all the new "toys" out. You can be isolated too for most of the ancient era.Though a Nasty surprise can still happen when a "new" neighbor shows up with 4 to 6 galleys and 8-12 units unannounced.

A side note: I never have liked the fact that the AI uses workboats to scout with. Maybe they need a modifier that makes them stay within their cultural borders? Hmmm....

Zappara, you ARE doing a Good/Great job with the Mod even if I do squawk a bit.


JosEPh

 

[DavidB1111]

Okay, so my knowledge of building stuff is a little on the low side.
Still, let's just make sure any sweeping changes don't act all crazy.

Also, why do the religion promotions fail to be applied to any military unit with a gun? I think my knights were the last ones...

Also, I think we've come a long way since the Mark V tank.

 

[Bezhukov]

Joseph, you can adjust the amount you spend against each Civ in the Espionage screen.

 

[Sinapus]

*reads through latest updates*

...and I'm barely 700 turns into my current snail game. Guess I'll have to start over again soon.

 

[zappara]

A side note: I never have liked the fact that the AI uses workboats to scout with. Maybe they need a modifier that makes them stay within their cultural borders? Hmmm....

I tried to adjust Unit AIs for workboat already in v2.5 but AIs still use them for exploring so it might have been built to game exe for AIs to use any ship for exploring - just like human player would do... There's little I can do about it. Not sure but there might be option in xml to disable map plot revealing - I guess that would effectively disable exploring workboats

Also, why do the religion promotions fail to be applied to any military unit with a gun? I think my knights were the last ones...

Because religious promotions are set only for ancient->middle age units. I set it this way because I thought that was the time period when religions had the most effect on wars. There's new promotion lines for later eras included in this patch too so you got plenty of choices there.

...and I'm barely 700 turns into my current snail game. Guess I'll have to start over again soon.

Snail speed might be too slow speed for testing purposes


Last night I got most of the ship changes done - sevopedia's unit upgrade path screen wasn't working at all for about week so it was rather difficult task to figure out what was wrong with it after I had changed unit upgrade paths for ships. There's now several different ship class paths after Iron Frigate and Ironclad: Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship, Torpedoboat, Submarine and Transport ship paths. Still thinking about adding modern era Privateer unit class and expand submarine unit group with few new classes. Might be some tweaking left to do with tech requirements and with ship features&costs. After that I can wait for BUG 3.6 and next RevolutionDCM releases so I can merge them to the patch.. oh wait, I haven't touched yet the random events - so maybe few disease events have to be made too...

And I've thought about writing guide how to make civ specific unit artstyle modules so other players/modders could make them as well for their favorite civs if they wanted.. Though it should be rather easy to make those modules if you look at the example ones I've made for this patch (available in next test version).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Joseph, you can adjust the amount you spend against each Civ in the Espionage screen.

DuoH!

After 3+ years of CIV IV playing you'd think I'd have noticed that!

Maybe that helps explain why I'm only playing Noble level.

JosEPh

 

[0100010]

Suggestions & bug fixes for 2.6

Observations from the 2.6 alpha test.

Not all of the Unique building and units have not been corrected in relation to their base building over the various past updates.

Unique Buildings:
There should be only 1 area of bonus relative to the base building to keep different civs relatively balanced among others in this regard. (I only list traits below that differ from the base building.)

Madrassa (Arabian) and Ho Trai (Siamese) as Compared to Library:
Library: +20% science, +2 scientist slots, +2 culture
Madrassa: +25% science, +2 priest slots (primary bonus) +4 culture
Ho Trai: +40% science (primary bonus), +3 culture
Suggested Fix:
Lower Madrassa to +20% science and +2 culture
Lower Ho Trai to +2 culture

Forum (Roman) to Market
Market: +20% Commerce
Forum: +25% birth rate (primary bonus) +25% Commerce
Suggested Fix: Lower Forum commerce to +20%

Ikhanda (Zulu) and Ekal Masharti (Assyrian) to Barracks
Barracks: various unit group XP bonuses
Ikhanda: -20% maintenance (primary bonus), increase production cost
Ekal Marsharti: +15% military production (primary bonus), +3 XP all land units.
Sugged Fix: Make Ikhanda cost the same as barracks. Remove general +3 XP bonus on Ekal Marsharti and replace with individual bonuses as per Barracks

Longhouse (Iroquois), Rathaus (Holy Roman), Ziggurat (Sumerian), and Sacrificial Alter (Aztec) to Courthouse
Courthouse: -25% Maintenance, +1 spy slot, +2 Espionage
Longhouse: -50% Maintenance, +1 Happy (primary bonus)
Rathaus: -50% Maintenance (primary bonus)
Ziggurat: Earlier tech & cheaper cost (primary bonus)
Sacrificial Alter: Earlier Tech & cheaper cost, -50% anger reduction from sacrifice (primary bonus)
Suggested Fix: Reduce Longhouse to -25% Maintenance

Research Institute (Russian) to Laboratory
Labratory: +25% Science, +50% spaceship production
Research Institute, +2 free scientists (primary bonus), reduced cost
Suggested Fix: make build cost equal to Laboratory

Mausoleum (Indian) to Jail
Jail: +25% espionage, -25% war weariness, +4 Espionage, +2 spy slots
Mausoleum: +2 Happy (primary bonus), reduced cost, +50% espionage
Suggested Fix: make built cost same as Jail. Reduce to +25% espionage

Iron Forge (Hittite) and Mint (Malinese) to Forge
Forge: +25% production, -1 Health, +1 engineer slot
Iron Forge: +15% production w/ Iron (primary bonus), +10% Food
Mint: +10% Commerce (primary bonus)
Suggested Fix: Remove +10% food from Iron forge.
*Given the history of excessive gold production even the +10% commerce on Mint is pretty powerful, you might consider making it a +5% w/ Silver, +5% with Gold.

Salon (French) to Observatory
Observatory: +25% science, +1 scientist slot, requires glassware, must have hills
Salon: +1 free artist (primary bonus), does not require glassware
Suggested fix: Remove hills requirement for Salon.
In this case, although more than one ;thing' it makes sense. A Salon isn't an observatory, so it shouldn't need glass, but by similar argument it shouldn't need hills either.

Pavilion (Chinese) and Hippodrome (Byzantine) to Theatre
Theatre: +3 culture, +1 happy per 10% culture, +2 Artist slots, +1 happy from Dye
Pavilion: +25% culture (primary bonus)
Hippodrome: +1 Happy (primary bonus), +1 happy from horses (instead of dye), + 1 happy per 5% culture rate
Suggested Fix: Make Hippodrome +1 happy per 10% culture as per Theatre.

Odeon (greek), Ball Court (Mayan), and Garden (Babyonian) to Colleseum
Colleseum: +1 Happy, +1 Happy per 20% culture
Ball Court: +3 Happy (primary bonus)
Garden: +2 Health (primary bonus)
Odeon: +3 culture (primary bonus), +2 Happy, +2 artist slots, +1 Happy from hit singles
Suggested fix: Reduce Odeon to +1 Happy, remove its free artists slots and the remove +1 happy from hit singles (which is impossible to obtain anyway because you can't get hit singles until after Realism, which obsoletes the building)

Shale Plant (Japanese) to Coal Plant
Coal Plant: -2 Health, requires coal, provides power & -4 health w/ coal
Shale Plant: +10% production, does not require coal (primary bonus), provides power w/ -4 health, provides oil products
Suggested fix: Remove +10% production bonus

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Other things to take note of:

The Cothon (Carthagenian) and the Dun (Celtic), Iron Forge (Hittite) and Mint (Malinese) become lost via building upgrades.

There is very little incentive to ever upgrade a forge to a steel mill.
Forge: +25% production, -1 health, +1 engineer slot
Steel Mill: +15% production, +10% production w/ power, -2 health, +1 Steel, +2 Engineer slots
Net change from upgrade: -10% production (if you have no power) to +0% production, -1 health, +1 Steel, +1 engineer slot.
You can obtain a steel resource via the Iron works. You have even less incentive to upgrade to a steel mill if you are Hittite or Malinese doe to their unique building bonuses on their forges. You really only need to upgrade if you want to build a building which requires it (like the statue of liberty) or to get extra resources to trade.

The Trading post (Viking) provides ships with a Free Navigation I promotion. However, the viking leader now already does this as result of the new seafaring trait, therefore it becomes redundant. so the Trading Post should provide some other bonus instead.

The low frequency of salt occurrences can be fixed by tweaking the numbers in bonusinfo.xml. Alternatively, a new Saltworks building (national wonder) could be added, which would provide salt. It's construction should be limited to coastal cities.

Caravels (and Carracks and Chinese Junks) should have their bonuses against Galleys and War Galleys removed. Why? Some have argued they should have these bonuses because they have 'cannons'. well maybe they did in real life, but in RoM they do not require the gunpowder tech to build (whereas Fluyts do, yet don't they have any bonuses) Second, they have enough of an advantage by being able to hide in ocean tiles.

It was mentioned that the Barracks requirement for the Heroic Epic is going to be dropped. (because of complaints that it has not been built yet before reaching leadership) I disagree with this. If anything, it tech requirement should (maybe) be earlier (Alphabet?) and perhaps cost slightly less so that one can build it earlier. Remember, you can also burn a great artist to build it. The main problem I have though, is that the Heroic Epic plus the Secret Army Base, plus various other military bonus buildings allow for a unit production speed that is too high. The Heroic epic should become obsolete when leadership is obtained. After all, how relevant is an ancient story to the production speed of units by the time you have the leader ship tech?

Silk Road should become obsolete with Navigation, not Motorized Transportation. It wasn't the Car that did it it, it was the ability to conduct trade over the ocean and thus avoid the long overland trade route.

All power plants should have the factory building requirement dropped. In vanilla BtS, only the factory and Manufacturing plant (which required the factory) had need of power. Now in RoM lots of buildings have need of power which have nothing to do with a factory.

The royal tournament should require the horse resource and horseback riding tech to build. It doesn't make much sense that it can be built without either one.

Magellean's Voyage: Consider that the Free Navigation I promotion it provides is of little value to Seafaring Trait leaders, although that is more of a reason for them to be less likely to build it than others who dont have the seafaring trait. Also because the drydock upgrades the shipyard, you can't build this wonder once you do. But since drydocks don't become obsolete via other means this shouldn't be an issue. I would still suggest though, that Magellean's Voyage become obsolete at Screw Propeller. Its relic of the sailing age after all.

All of the Great wonder which provide 2 free techs (Theory of Evolution, Leonardo's Workshop & Universal Translator) should be lowered to 1 free tech. The science speed rate is too fast anyway, as many have mentioned, this just makes it worse.

It's way too easy to build stacks of spearmen in the early game and rush the AI with them. This is primarily due to the fact they no longer require resources to built, which was the initial limiting factor. Build spearmen: Boost XP against barbarians, hook up resources, build spearmen faster, make stack, taken out fortified archers in cities easily. I would suggest dropping their strength down to a 3. (Try this with Zulu, the Impi are sic w/ their movement bonuses)

Allow improvements to be built on Oasis, the fact that they are on a desert tile already limits the type of improvement you can build there. The main thing this can let you do is build forts on them (which happened often in history) Also consider giving them a minor (10% or less) defensive bonus as well.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Would making work boats hidden nationality make any AI player automatically attack them and stop their use for exploration? It would not cause wars and counter the open border agreements. I have not thought about the down side yet.

The Heroic epic should become obsolete when leadership is obtained. After all, how relevant is an ancient story to the production speed of units by the time you have the leader ship tech?

Australia's Heroic Epic is from World War I. England's Heroic Epic has been refreshed often Harold Godwinson at Stamfordbridge, Nelson at the Nile and so on. The heroic ideal is very important for recruiting men and hence building units. It should not become obsolete.

 

[0100010]

Would making work boats hidden nationality make any AI player automatically attack them and stop their use for exploration? It would not cause wars and counter the open border agreements. I have not thought about the down side yet.



Australia's Heroic Epic is from World War I. England's Heroic Epic has been refreshed often Harold Godwinson at Stamfordbridge, Nelson at the Nile and so on. The heroic ideal is very important for recruiting men and hence building units. It should not become obsolete.

I could counter argue that, by your own reasoning above, such modern derivatives are diffused though out the country of origin and no longer tied to a specific city, etc. But the real reason for the need of obsolescence is that +200% military production bonus from two buildings is too unbalancing when you stack it with Secret Army Base.

Current Non-Obsoleting Military production bonus buildings: Heroic Epic 100% + Secret Army Base 100% + Military Academy 50% + Garrison 20% + Filing Factory 20% = 290%. Add Drydock 50% = 340% for navel vessels. Add Military airbase 50% = 340% for Air units.

 

[iyyillius]

Jungle's haveing freshwater doesn't work. After you clear the jungle you can build a farm on the plot without irrigation.

 

[DavidB1111]

I could counter argue that, by your own reasoning above, such modern derivatives are diffused though out the country of origin and no longer tied to a specific city, etc. But the real reason for the need of obsolescence is that +200% military production bonus from two buildings is too unbalancing when you stack it with Secret Army Base.

Current Non-Obsoleting Military production bonus buildings: Heroic Epic 100% + Secret Army Base 100% + Military Academy 50% + Garrison 20% + Filing Factory 20% = 290%. Add Drydock 50% = 340% for navel vessels. Add Military airbase 50% = 340% for Air units.

Well, I agree that it's a rather large bonus, but if you're crazy enough to dedicate a city to building those two, the Secret Army Base being able to be built by a Great General long before it should.., then you should reap the benefits.

As it is, he already tripled the costs of most of the later game units, if not by 4 times. So, you'd need the 250+ bonus percentage.

Let's see what else you said...

Silk Road should become obsolete with Navigation, not Motorized Transportation. It wasn't the Car that did it it, it was the ability to conduct trade over the ocean and thus avoid the long overland trade route.

I have no complaints with this. I didn't even know that. Wait, Navigation would obsolete it much sooner. Perhaps you mean something other than the technology that gives you Magellan's Voyage. Which even his Voyage didn't obsolete it in real life.

All power plants should have the factory building requirement dropped. In vanilla BtS, only the factory and Manufacturing plant (which required the factory) had need of power. Now in RoM lots of buildings have need of power which have nothing to do with a factory.

I'm not certain I understand this. Are you saying you think a lot less buildings should use Power, or that they shouldn't have any bonuses...

All of the Great wonder which provide 2 free techs (Theory of Evolution, Leonardo's Workshop & Universal Translator) should be lowered to 1 free tech. The science speed rate is too fast anyway, as many have mentioned, this just makes it worse.

No. Just No. Or at the very least give 2 to only the Universal Translator and the Theory of Evolution.
I'm on the fence. Don't push me over it.

It's way too easy to build stacks of spearmen in the early game and rush the AI with them. This is primarily due to the fact they no longer require resources to built, which was the initial limiting factor. Build spearmen: Boost XP against barbarians, hook up resources, build spearmen faster, make stack, taken out fortified archers in cities easily. I would suggest dropping their strength down to a 3. (Try this with Zulu, the Impi are sic w/ their movement bonuses)

Clearly this is because "your Spearmen" must be broken, if they can actually take out fortified archers. Because all of mine up until Pikemen have had about 60% to 70% chance...
Pikeman promoted with Cover 2 might have a chance to get some fortified archers, but only if they're backed up with siege weapons. This on the easiest difficulty by the way.
A good rule of warfare in Civ 4., if it doesn't say 95% or greater odds, you will lose.

For Reference, In Civ 4, and this mod doesn't change these promotions, A city built on a forested hill, with a Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1 and City Defense 1 promoted Archer is going to shrug off anything you can throw at it for the longest time. As in, use Knights..

Also, please Zappara, don't fall for the old ranged accuracy trap. Because I really don't want to bring about 12 catapults/trebushet with me just to smash a city...They're less inaccurate in real life.
At least, I've never heard of the siege of a city with 12 catapults/trebs and that city not being instantly overwhelmed...
Plus they're so expensive in real life, they might as well been tanks...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I could counter argue that, by your own reasoning above, such modern derivatives are diffused though out the country of origin and no longer tied to a specific city, etc. But the real reason for the need of obsolescence is that +200% military production bonus from two buildings is too unbalancing when you stack it with Secret Army Base.

Current Non-Obsoleting Military production bonus buildings: Heroic Epic 100% + Secret Army Base 100% + Military Academy 50% + Garrison 20% + Filing Factory 20% = 290%. Add Drydock 50% = 340% for navel vessels. Add Military airbase 50% = 340% for Air units.

You are right Heroic Epic should provide a unit production bonus in all cities

I don't know about you but I can only afford one city producing land units and if I am lucky I may be able to afford one producing navies. The rest have to produce money to support the army . Secret Army bases are so far in the future I never get to build them. I hardly ever get past Railroad. Mostly I lose in the Medieval era or earlier. If I do make it to Banking I can usually hold my own. This is in 2.52, in 2.6 I have yet to make it to the medieval era before being destroyed

I do not play military games, I do build enough units to defend myself and maybe take out a few one city civs or barbs. I prefer to build. This means that I do not get to build the Heroic Epic until I am lucky enough to get a general so I can promote a unit to three levels. Interestingly enough this most often happens with me being the first to get Leadership.

Like davidB1111, I find that spearmen can't take out a city with fortified archers. My worst case was when I lost six spearmen against a single archer and he suffered no damage. He was fortified in a on a hill but there were no walls. This means that, for me, war does not start until I have axemen or swordsmen and then I can only win against barbs and single city civs

 

[Munger]

I'm loving the way 2.6 is shaping up. I literally can't wait for the next test version to be released! This week I am on leave from work and all I have done today is check this forum every few hours to see if there has been any more progress! Argh, zappara, what have you done to me??

Anyhoo, a few random thoughts of the day:

-I really like the hidden nationality unit concept (e.g. Privateer) as it has a lot of potential for fun tactical choices and cloak-and-dagger style play. I was thinking a land based equivalent would be useful but I'm not sure how it would work or how it might be different to spies. I think someone mentioned previously the idea of a hidden nationality 'mercenary' type of unit which civs could build and which would be visible to other civs (unlike spies). They could engage other units and destroy improvements but would not be able to attack/capture cities. Effectively they would be player controlled barbarians. This could add more of a cold war element to the game whereby players could try to weaken their enemies without actually declaring full scale war. I imagine these units might be overpowered if spammed though, so perhaps there should be a limit on the number that each player can have at once, e.g. five. There should also be a small chance that the unit would reveal their nationality if destroyed.

I'll admit I haven't thought this through in any great detail so feel free to shoot me down. As I said, I just like the idea of 'secret' units and would like to be able to expand this category somehow. Something to discuss anyway.

-Just a minor point this one; I think the recently added 'Long Range Bomber B52' unit should just be called 'Strategic Bomber'. This is because the B52 is specific to the USA, but in the game it is not a unique or flavour unit since it is used by all civs, so it should have a more generic name. Also 'Strategic Bomber' is a more appropriate military term than 'Long Range Bomber'.

Keep up the good work zap.

 

[DavidB1111]

THe privateer was fun, but I got it to level 9 from killing minor ships. It only had problems after a bunch of barbarian Privateers showed up. Then I promoted it to a man of war. And then a Destroyer.
Ah, and the Guerrila unit works the same way, except by the time you have it, it keeps getting killed by rifleman of uber-cheating. Or nine cannons...or seven knights, etc.

Like davidB1111, I find that spearmen can't take out a city with fortified archers. My worst case was when I lost six spearmen against a single archer and he suffered no damage. He was fortified in a on a hill but there were no walls. This means that, for me, war does not start until I have axemen or swordsmen and then I can only win against barbs and single city civs

Indeed. Although you might want to kick the difficulty down to Settler for awhile. I've conquered the world many of times in this mod on Settler.

I usually don't attack until I have tanks. This is so much fun. And now that Crusaders are useless because they don't gain any experience from being "built", I have no real choice but wait, or cheat and create great generals.
Either stop nerfing the Crusaders, or bring back the entire range of promotions for Nano Swarms.
"The cannon has damaged your Nano Swarm." times 12. Arggh, I hate cannons.

 

[0100010]

Like davidB1111, I find that spearmen can't take out a city with fortified archers. My worst case was when I lost six spearmen against a single archer and he suffered no damage. He was fortified in a on a hill but there were no walls. This means that, for me, war does not start until I have axemen or swordsmen and then I can only win against barbs and single city civs

Well the tactic does have some conditions. I usally play on raging baribarians which give me enough fodder to make my Spearmen max out at 20 XP, this gives me 4 promotions: Combat I +10%, Cover I + 20%, Cover II + 25%, Cover III + 30% for a total of +85% vs Archers.
Spaerrman Str = 4 * 1.85 = 7.4
Fortified City Archer (no hill, no promotions) = 3 * 1.75 = 5.25
Fortified City Archer (hills, no promotions) = 3 * 2.00 = 6
Fortified City Archer (no hills, Garrison I) = 3 * 1.95 = 5.85
Fortified City Archer (hills, Garrison I) = 3 * 2.2 = 6.6

Against any of those values you still get more than 50%, no its not 95% and you will lose some spearmen. But its early game as I said. The AI rarely puts more than 2 archers in a city if they have less than 3 cities during these early turns. (An exception is if he is waiting to complete a settler unit. The AI will stack 4 archers, build a settler then send the settler + 2 archers out, and repeat the process until they have 3 to 4 cities founded.) You hit the AI city with at least 5 level 4 spearmen when they have only 2 archers present (or take out the escorted settlers)

Yeah you do have to go barbarian hunting to feed your stack XP before making an assault, it isn't easy, but the tactic does work pretty well. What usually stops me though is revolution distance complaints after I take about 2 cities, although if I just raze them I could keep them going. Each successful attack just feeds them more XP. Spearmen with 2 resources hooked up cost almost the same as archers, (either a little more if one of the resources was stone, or a little less if not) with 3 or more resources hooked up they cost less. They AI could totally bust this tactic with a garrisoned spearmsn defender but its not smart enough to do so.

 

[vogtmurr]

There have been some really interesting suggestions in this thread. Having just successfully gotten this MOD working (with the help of JosEPh II), I've looked in Worldbuilder, and have to say I'm pretty impressed. A lot of detail went into the varieties of armor units and wooden ship units especially. Great to see the Xebec ! However, I note that many of the unique units in each category differ only by appearance. The true afficionado war nerds would be happier if they had more subtle advantages or disadvantages, such as, a Tiger Tank might be slower than its contemporaries, but a lot tougher to kill. It looks look as though the overall objective has been game balance, and a noble attempt for so many cultures to be represented.

However, we still have the big problem that Rome's entry level iron age unit is the Praetorian, an elite Imperial era Guard unit representing a light swordsman ? The unit should start with Legionary, maybe with a base strength of 6 and 25% modifiers vs melee, archers, 20% attack cities, and 20% hills defense. Praetorian would be the upgrade path to a heavy swordsman, with an 8 and the same modifiers. Why not, if you've got an Aztec Jaguar and Elite Jaguar ? You might have to bring Berserker down a bit or make sure it is on the equivalent upgrade path as the Praetorian. Then, make the Hoplite the Greek substitute for a spearman. (A Phalanx is clearly not an axeman anyway.) Give Hoplite a base 5 with a 25% modifier vs. archers, melee (instead of 50%), 50% vs. cavalry, and 20% defending cities. The upgrade path for the Hoplite would be the Phalanx, in the Macedonian sense, with a base strength of 7, but without the modifiers for defending cities. That way the Roman units are still a little better than the best Greek and Celtic units, but not excessively so. Finally, there should be a modifier for units that perform exceptionally well on level ground. The Phalanx and Chariot units should get a 25% strength bonus for being on plains and level grasslands, instead of the usual defensive bonus in hills for the Phalanx. Final word; I see we've got a siege quinquereme which is weak as a naval unit, but where is the actual quinquereme, and where does Greek Fire play into this ? We also need a dromon and galleass unit, I think.

 

[vogtmurr]

Oh yeah, one more thing. The WWII era ships are all classified as diesel, really they were all turbine. That was one of the things that set the Dreadnought apart from the earlier coal powered reciprocating "steam" ships. Only the submarines and Germany's pocket battleships were diesel driven. I realize it is just a category of course and you may need to make some oversimplifications.

 

[DavidB1111]

Well the tactic does have some conditions. I usally play on raging baribarians which give me enough fodder to make my Spearmen max out at 20 XP, this gives me 4 promotions: Combat I +10%, Cover I + 20%, Cover II + 25%, Cover III + 30% for a total of +85% vs Archers.
Spaerrman Str = 4 * 1.85 = 7.4
Fortified City Archer (no hill, no promotions) = 3 * 1.75 = 5.25
Fortified City Archer (hills, no promotions) = 3 * 2.00 = 6
Fortified City Archer (no hills, Garrison I) = 3 * 1.95 = 5.85
Fortified City Archer (hills, Garrison I) = 3 * 2.2 = 6.6

Against any of those values you still get more than 50%, no its not 95% and you will lose some spearmen. But its early game as I said. The AI rarely puts more than 2 archers in a city if they have less than 3 cities during these early turns. (An exception is if he is waiting to complete a settler unit. The AI will stack 4 archers, build a settler then send the settler + 2 archers out, and repeat the process until they have 3 to 4 cities founded.) You hit the AI city with at least 5 level 4 spearmen when they have only 2 archers present (or take out the escorted settlers)

Yeah you do have to go barbarian hunting to feed your stack XP before making an assault, it isn't easy, but the tactic does work pretty well. What usually stops me though is revolution distance complaints after I take about 2 cities, although if I just raze them I could keep them going. Each successful attack just feeds them more XP. Spearmen with 2 resources hooked up cost almost the same as archers, (either a little more if one of the resources was stone, or a little less if not) with 3 or more resources hooked up they cost less. They AI could totally bust this tactic with a garrisoned spearmsn defender but its not smart enough to do so.

Right, well, if it's overpowered for you, it's not overpowered for me.
Seriously, though, will you check out my other answers to you? Otherwise I have no idea what else to say to you.

Also, don't play with Revolutions. Ever. Trust me, that's micromanagement hell, and unless you're playing Gal Civ 2, or Sins of a Solar Empire, you're not supposed to be forced into said Micromanagement. Why was it made again?

OH, and Zappara, need I point you to the middle East. I wouldn't say the majority of religion based wars happened centuries ago.