Version 2.7 discussion

[zappara]

Concerning the Glass-ideas: Maybe use 'Lenses' instead of 'Mirrors'. Could be requisite to Astronomy (telescopes need lenses) or lead to more sophisticated scientific methods in general (-> microscopes).

Glass blowing is already requisite for Optics and optics is required for Astronomy so this is already in RoM

Is it possible to add a maintenance cost to the better levels of road development? I can't help but feel that maintenance costs should be incurred, particularly for asphalt roads.

Possible probably but that would cause enormous stress to computer to calculate each civ's roads every turn (each civ would check every map plot every turn) so this would be too much of burden to the game.

I agree with these points, especially regarding fresh water in jungle as it does lessen the importance of rivers and lakes. I would say that if it comes down to whether jungles are healthy or unhealthy places to live, on balance they must be rated unhealthy.

Fresh water adds +1 health in RoM, jungles -0.4 health so fresh water is 2.5 jungles... if city has more jungles, unhealthiness wins. One could also say that all rivers should cause unhealthiness, floods, insects etc.

@Zappara: You already have the Carrack in game, it´s the Portugese UU (replacing the Caravel). It´s nice to see that the mod is so big, that not even you have all the features in your mind at all time

Over the past two years plenty of stuff has gone to box "maybe some day I'll include this".

 

[styfken]

Is it possible to implement a "score victory" that works as follows: After turn x (where x is defined by the gamer), the program checks at EVERY turn for the following condition: If the highest score player exceeds the second-placed player by y% (y is defined by the gamer), then he wins.

That would make possible a victory at, for example, the modern era, without having to wait for building the spaceship, in situations where domination, cultural or any other kind of victory is almost impossible.

Of course if x is set to 1500, then this victory type is effectively non-existent, so it will still be possible for a gamer to play without this kind of visctory.

For me it would be very helpful though, as I abandon quite a lot of games because any type of victory is too far away or too difficult and the game gets too slow in later eras. I would really like to have this "score victory" to have a realistic goal to go for.

Zappara, can you implement this kind of victory? Is it too much trouble? Anyone else interested?

 

[Revolutionist]

Gah, I hope more religions aren't added. I'm as big a fan of MOAR as the next guy, it's certainly one of the big reasons that I play RoM. But it seems like the more religions you add, the less special each one is. Founding one becomes almost no big deal at all, and it seems like every single civ ends up with its own religion. Personally, I'd rather zappara keeps up with his nifty work of making each religion a bit different from the others with buildings and such. That I do love. Cookiecutter religions aren't as cool, after all.

I'm throwing a vote behind Tea as a resoure. It was definately an important one in the past, and is still a huge industry today. It's at least as important as coffee, personal preferences aside.

I'm still waiting patiently for the future era to be expanded a bit more. It always seems like the icing on the cake for me, when I get that far, even if the game's winner has already been decided. It's a kind of Behold my Glory and Dispair, Rival Civs! moment, at least. It always seems like the time for really over the top buildings and wonders to match the superadvanced units already wandering around at that time.

 

[JanK]

Bezhukav's idea is awsome!
I especialy like the blackshiths guild idea with new prmotions n'stuff!

 

[NBAfan]

I don't think more religions are a good idea. I think there is enough, as more would make less interesting.

 

[Bezhukov]

I don't think more religions are a good idea. I think there is enough, as more would make less interesting.

I would even go so far as to suggest reducing the religions to four:

animism
polytheism
monotheism
atheism

As its too politically incorrect to make them distinctive enough to be interesting and the slots freed up could be employed to reflect other forms of human organization, such as the aforementioned guilds. Having so many religions also undermines the happiness control measures lately implemented and duplicates ground already covered in the base game,

 

[Subaru WrXxX]

Also on board for a few less religions although I believe only 4 is a bit steep...To my fault I don't know half of the religions in RoM & in-game it feels less important as so many religions get found & half are never developed. I do like having so many over base Civ & REALLY like the depth & originality paid to each one but if 2 to 4 or so didn't make the cut, I for one wouldn't miss them...no idea as to suggesting which ones to axe tho...

Also not sure if possible but if there were ways to further positive reactions to your actions with other civs...Everytime you trade w/ my enemy or declared war or w/e 100 or so negative actions that you can do, you get heavily penalized but there are rarely any benefits toward positive actions...again I'm vague on details but giving units or money or joining in wars for a civ should yield in higher positive rewards than currently present to balance the horde of negative reactions...

 

[Revolutionist]

I would even go so far as to suggest reducing the religions to four:

I understand the idea behind it. But reducing the flavor of religions even more seems counterproductive. Especially since RoM is a mod, not a commercial release. You can be a little less concerned about political correctness than Firaxis had to be.


On a more design oriented angle the more religions you have the more difficult it is to make each one feel different. The ideas just get spread too thin. I'd at least be happy with some differences between temples and monastaries of various religions. The current crop of wonders and promotions is a great addition already. Good enough to be expanded.

And while I wouldn't miss a few missing religions either, cutting back doesn't seem likely to happen. Since no matter which one is cut out, you'd have a gaggle of angry RoM fans scowling and wondering what happened to their favorite religion, Taoism, or whatever.

Also not sure if possible but if there were ways to further positive reactions to your actions with other civs... ...to balance the horde of negative reactions...

There's been more than a few times when I've felt the same way. Seems like over the course of ten turns it'll be like:
CPU: "Give us Flintlocks. We neeeeeds it. For.. umm.. humanitarian purposes."
Player: "Umm. Nope."
CPU:

CPU: "Stop trading with your dearest friends, CPU2"
Player: "Lemme think. Nope."
CPU:

CPU: "If you won't stop trading with CPU2, can I interest you in helping me with a blood soaked war with them?"
Player: "Wait, what? That's crazy!"
CPU:

CPU: "Well, if you won't stop trading with CPU2, and won't go to war with them, how about giving us Flintlocks..?"

And of course, they'll remember that for the next two hundred turns. Though the five tons of solid gold, ten gifted units, three technologies and miles of roads built by your workers in their territory is forgotten ten turns later, or never noticed at all.

I'd be more concerned about it if the AIs ever bothered to declare war based on their all consuming, growing hatred of my tendancy to not provide them with the means to kill me. Seems like no matter how much they hate you, all they really care about is how many musketmen you have stacked up in your cities, compared to how many they have in theirs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

On the topic of religions - when I play I like to try for founding all the religions. With the current number of religions in RoM this strategy works well. I have played with three of the extra modular religions and find that it is too much. I can still found all of them if I am lucky but my cities get bogged down building the missionaries to spread them . I have also started getting the diplomatic victory from the Apostolic Palace too often.

One thing that would be good is fixing the Proffet buttons to only show which holy shrines have not been built somewhere in the world. Wait a minute this would probably be a good task for a learner of Python like me to attempt

 

[zappara]

I'm throwing a vote behind Tea as a resoure. It was definately an important one in the past, and is still a huge industry today. It's at least as important as coffee, personal preferences aside.

If someone makes graphics for Tea it can be added... and no, I haven't seen graphics for Tea resource in any mod yet.

So far I've added Lead resource, found nice graphics for it. Seems that more than 50 resources are allowed and if this is correct and no problems occur, there's 24 empty resource slots still to fill and I was thinking to finally make the manufactured resource system more complex. For ideas I made this short production lines list:

Spoiler :

logs => lumber (lumbermill)

lumber => pulpwood (sawmill) => paper (paper mill / factory)

lumber + steel => weapons (weapon factory)

cow => milk => cheese

wheat => Beer (brewery)

sugar => alcohol (distillery)

sheep => wool => cloth (Textile factory)

flax or Hemp => Sails and cloth

Clay => Pottery

cotton => cloth

Sulphur (in acidic form) + water/oil => Chemicals => Fertilizers

Oil or Oil Products or Chemicals(?) => Plastic

Coal => Nanotubes (Laboratory?)

Chemicals => Synthetic fibers (Polyester, Nylon, Kevlar etc)

Copper + Silicon? => Semiconductors

Nanobots

Ceramic compounds (used in spaceships / high temperature environments like Fusion reactor)

Semiconductors + Plastic + Aluminum => Robot parts

Medicine/Drugs

Copper + Zinc + Sulphur => Batteries?

Coal => Synthetic rubies/diamonds (alternative for gems?)

Solar cells

Cement / Concrete

Natural gas

Exotic wood (furniture, art, ship parts)

Carbonfibers (cars, bikes, hi-tech stuff)

I don't think that many new natural resources should be added, as the maps are already cluttered with resources. But there's lots of room for modern day manufactured resources...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If someone makes graphics for Tea it can be added... and no, I haven't seen graphics for Tea resource in any mod yet.

Tea is a resource in History in the Making. Unfortunately the graphics are packed. Aslo unfortunate is that you can't search for tea on CivFanatics because it is less than 4 characters long.

 

[Retrospect]

If someone makes graphics for Tea it can be added... and no, I haven't seen graphics for Tea resource in any mod yet.

So far I've added Lead resource, found nice graphics for it. Seems that more than 50 resources are allowed and if this is correct and no problems occur, there's 24 empty resource slots still to fill and I was thinking to finally make the manufactured resource system more complex. For ideas I made this short production lines list:

Spoiler :

logs => lumber (lumbermill)

lumber => pulpwood (sawmill) => paper (paper mill / factory)

lumber + steel => weapons (weapon factory)

cow => milk => cheese

wheat => Beer (brewery)

sugar => alcohol (distillery)

sheep => wool => cloth (Textile factory)

flax or Hemp => Sails and cloth

Clay => Pottery

cotton => cloth

Sulphur (in acidic form) + water/oil => Chemicals => Fertilizers

Oil or Oil Products or Chemicals(?) => Plastic

Coal => Nanotubes (Laboratory?)

Chemicals => Synthetic fibers (Polyester, Nylon, Kevlar etc)

Copper + Silicon? => Semiconductors

Nanobots

Ceramic compounds (used in spaceships / high temperature environments like Fusion reactor)

Semiconductors + Plastic + Aluminum => Robot parts

Medicine/Drugs

Copper + Zinc + Sulphur => Batteries?

Coal => Synthetic rubies/diamonds (alternative for gems?)

Solar cells

Cement / Concrete

Natural gas

Exotic wood (furniture, art, ship parts)

Carbonfibers (cars, bikes, hi-tech stuff)

I don't think that many new natural resources should be added, as the maps are already cluttered with resources. But there's lots of room for modern day manufactured resources...

I love the manufactured resources, that was one of the first things that really grabbed me about ROM, making the system more complex can only be a good thing.

As for natural resources I agree that there already is a lot and any more would be too much I think.... would like to see tea in there though..... probably because I am a Brit

 

[Deon]

I could make a tea model, though without animation... You could still use the "Plantation" improvement which is animated. The question is, how should the tea look?

 

[Lachlan]

What about Military Alliance like NATO ?

What about Economic Alliance like NAFTA ?

Alliance could acting like mini-UN : A world wonder called "NATO", "NAFTA", "European Union", "African Union", "South-East Asian Organization", "Delos League", "Hanseatic League", "Holy German Empire", what about a federation of former three, four, five civs for resisting against a bigger civ ? The army should be controlled by the elected leader of the moment of this federation ? Each civ could build their unit a give them automatically to their Federation, you should create two level of units : police units and military units...

How about of this idea ?



My dream !

 

[generalstaff]

If someone makes graphics for Tea it can be added... and no, I haven't seen graphics for Tea resource in any mod yet.

So far I've added Lead resource, found nice graphics for it. Seems that more than 50 resources are allowed and if this is correct and no problems occur, there's 24 empty resource slots still to fill and I was thinking to finally make the manufactured resource system more complex. For ideas I made this short production lines list:

Spoiler :

logs => lumber (lumbermill)

lumber => pulpwood (sawmill) => paper (paper mill / factory)

lumber + steel => weapons (weapon factory)

cow => milk => cheese

wheat => Beer (brewery)

sugar => alcohol (distillery)

sheep => wool => cloth (Textile factory)

flax or Hemp => Sails and cloth

Clay => Pottery

cotton => cloth

Sulphur (in acidic form) + water/oil => Chemicals => Fertilizers

Oil or Oil Products or Chemicals(?) => Plastic

Coal => Nanotubes (Laboratory?)

Chemicals => Synthetic fibers (Polyester, Nylon, Kevlar etc)

Copper + Silicon? => Semiconductors

Nanobots

Ceramic compounds (used in spaceships / high temperature environments like Fusion reactor)

Semiconductors + Plastic + Aluminum => Robot parts

Medicine/Drugs

Copper + Zinc + Sulphur => Batteries?

Coal => Synthetic rubies/diamonds (alternative for gems?)

Solar cells

Cement / Concrete

Natural gas

Exotic wood (furniture, art, ship parts)

Carbonfibers (cars, bikes, hi-tech stuff)

I don't think that many new natural resources should be added, as the maps are already cluttered with resources. But there's lots of room for modern day manufactured resources...

I like the added resources, and more manufactured ones would really improve things IMO. Also, new resources should not eliminate buildings which give commerce/prod/food bonuses with resources

My resource comments/suggestions \/

Spoiler :

-Textiles (req. Cotton, Silk, or Wool)
-Electrons (req. Copper or Silicon)
-Synthetic Dye (replacement for Dye, req. Coal or Oil Products)
-Alcohol (req. Sugar and Wheat or Corn)
-Wine (req. Grapes or Rice)
-Soap (req. Olives, Cow, Pig, or Whale)
-Artificial Nitrates (replacement for Sulfur)
-Hit Novels (produced by Wonder which requires Paper)
-Coca
-Opium
-Nanobots, Pharmaceuticals, and Wood/Paper are great ideas, but have not ideas on refining them at the moment

Also not sure if possible but if there were ways to further positive reactions to your actions with other civs...Everytime you trade w/ my enemy or declared war or w/e 100 or so negative actions that you can do, you get heavily penalized but there are rarely any benefits toward positive actions...again I'm vague on details but giving units or money or joining in wars for a civ should yield in higher positive rewards than currently present to balance the horde of negative reactions...

I completely agree. It seems like every turn somebody either has their hand our for begging for techs or wants me to get involved in some war (which either I cannot get my troops to, cause me to make a whole list of enemies I cannot deal with, etc). The negatives from these things seem to last too long as negatives, and the diplomatic boost does not justify giving techs and "this war brings us together" only lasts as long as the war.

 

[0100010]

I could make a tea model, though without animation... You could still use the "Plantation" improvement which is animated. The question is, how should the tea look?

Like a bush/shrub, since that's what they come from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea

Here's a model you might be able to use or alter.
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=9aaec75bd174e5e1aeca10f3a90f4326

 

[0100010]

Some separate issues:

From 2.62 (though this issue has been around a while) Shwedagon Paya gives you access all religion civics, which is too powerful IMO when you can hit Atheist to gain +20% science and +20% commerce in all cities in the classical era.

Horse Archer, and Elephant units are still too powerful relative to other units around at that time.

The removal of the food bonus on slavery is a step in the right direction, though I would also give it a great person penalty and a +1 unhappy in all cities (if possible)

 

[konradcabral]

There's been more than a few times when I've felt the same way. Seems like over the course of ten turns it'll be like:
CPU: "Give us Flintlocks. We neeeeeds it. For.. umm.. humanitarian purposes."
Player: "Umm. Nope."
CPU:

CPU: "Stop trading with your dearest friends, CPU2"
Player: "Lemme think. Nope."
CPU:

CPU: "If you won't stop trading with CPU2, can I interest you in helping me with a blood soaked war with them?"
Player: "Wait, what? That's crazy!"
CPU:

CPU: "Well, if you won't stop trading with CPU2, and won't go to war with them, how about giving us Flintlocks..?"

And of course, they'll remember that for the next two hundred turns. Though the five tons of solid gold, ten gifted units, three technologies and miles of roads built by your workers in their territory is forgotten ten turns later, or never noticed at all.

I'd be more concerned about it if the AIs ever bothered to declare war based on their all consuming, growing hatred of my tendancy to not provide them with the means to kill me. Seems like no matter how much they hate you, all they really care about is how many musketmen you have stacked up in your cities, compared to how many they have in theirs.

You just described all my anger with Civ IV. I'd really like if we could improve diplomacy and the friendship-anger system. More tradescreen options would be great too. It's the only path that RoM never walked...

I don't think that many new natural resources should be added, as the maps are already cluttered with resources. But there's lots of room for modern day manufactured resources...

And what if we allow one tile / improvement having more than one resource? Like a mine which provides both gold and copper? Or a farm which provides corn and coffee?

 

[Jabarto]

If someone makes graphics for Tea it can be added... and no, I haven't seen graphics for Tea resource in any mod yet.

So far I've added Lead resource, found nice graphics for it. Seems that more than 50 resources are allowed and if this is correct and no problems occur, there's 24 empty resource slots still to fill and I was thinking to finally make the manufactured resource system more complex. For ideas I made this short production lines list:

Spoiler :

logs => lumber (lumbermill)

lumber => pulpwood (sawmill) => paper (paper mill / factory)

lumber + steel => weapons (weapon factory)

cow => milk => cheese

wheat => Beer (brewery)

sugar => alcohol (distillery)

sheep => wool => cloth (Textile factory)

flax or Hemp => Sails and cloth

Clay => Pottery

cotton => cloth

Sulphur (in acidic form) + water/oil => Chemicals => Fertilizers

Oil or Oil Products or Chemicals(?) => Plastic

Coal => Nanotubes (Laboratory?)

Chemicals => Synthetic fibers (Polyester, Nylon, Kevlar etc)

Copper + Silicon? => Semiconductors

Nanobots

Ceramic compounds (used in spaceships / high temperature environments like Fusion reactor)

Semiconductors + Plastic + Aluminum => Robot parts

Medicine/Drugs

Copper + Zinc + Sulphur => Batteries?

Coal => Synthetic rubies/diamonds (alternative for gems?)

Solar cells

Cement / Concrete

Natural gas

Exotic wood (furniture, art, ship parts)

Carbonfibers (cars, bikes, hi-tech stuff)

I don't think that many new natural resources should be added, as the maps are already cluttered with resources. But there's lots of room for modern day manufactured resources...

Think very carefully before adding lead. Between sulfur, copper, uranium, oil, and rubber, there are a lot of essential military resources for the modern era as it is. I'd rather not see the problem Civ3 had, whereby you get completely screwed if you don't have a certain resource - *cough*saltpeter*cough* - and the more essential resources you have, the greater the likelihood of that happening.

In fact, I think it would be a good idea to remove the resource requirements from Mech Infantry and early gunpowser units. One of the great things about vanilla Civ 4 is that you always have a chance of victory even if you were without resources, via artillery and archery/gunpowder units.

Also if you're still willing to add natural resources, I'd like to see flax in the game. I'm pretty sure The Ancient Mediterranean mod has graphics for it. Another fruit resource would be nice, too, but I don't know of any graphics for those.

 

[Deon]

I've made icons for the tea resource:

I attach archive with DDS icon and TGA small icon for gamefont.

As long as it's just a bush, we can just retexture the wine resource (I'd say, remove grapes and make texture darker). and we could use more bushes per tile to make it more distinct.

If I manage to find the texture I will retexture it easily.