Victim of perceived thug does end up in jail

[JollyRoger]

As the first thead was closed due to it reaching 1,000 posts, this is a continuation.

Zimmerman has been charged with 2nd Degree murder. Looks like he finally has a decent lawyer. So, plea deal, tossed by the judge on a stand your ground motion, conviction on 2nd degree, conviction on a lesser charge, or acquittal?

My guess right now is acquittal, though I reserve the right to change that as new informaton emerges. It seems the initial investigation may have been sloppy enough for a decent defense lawyer to get an acquittal.

Link to the first thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=455837

 

[woody60707]

Originally Posted by Berzerker
but he was stalking the victim

8.6 STALKING
§ 784.048(2), Fla. Stat.
To prove the crime of Stalking, the State must prove the following element beyond a reasonable doubt:
(Defendant) willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly [followed] [harassed] [or] [cyberstalked] (victim).
Definitions.
“Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
“Cyberstalk” means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose.

7.4 MURDER—SECOND DEGREE

To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.
2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).
3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

Definitions.

An ―act includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.
An act is ―imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind‖ if it is an act or series of acts that:
1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and
2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and
3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.
In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

Second Degree is what they use when someone ends up dead in a bar fight. And it's kind of a crap shot as the line of Second Degree and manslaughter is a very fuzzy one. But a Second Degree charge does help get someone on manslaughter in a case like this. If you can get the jury to believe the person is guilty, but not beyond a reasonable doubt, it's easier for the jury to "split the difference" and find in manslaughter, then if it was just manslaughter alone.

 

[emzie]

Acquittal followed by the stand your ground law being modified.

 

[attackfighter]

Hopefully he gets off just to piss off Trayvon's ******ed supporters. Of course, being Amerikkka, the judge will probably sentence him to further her own career and to prove that mob justice works.

 

[woody60707]

Hopefully he gets off just to piss off Trayvon's ******ed supporters. Of course, being Amerikkka, the judge will probably sentence him to further her own career and to prove that mob justice works.

??? Dude, there kid was shot dead. Of course everyone should be supporters of them.

 

[Berzerker]

My guess right now is acquittal, though I reserve the right to change that as new informaton emerges. It seems the initial investigation may have been sloppy enough for a decent defense lawyer to get an acquittal.

You wanted him tried for murder believing the evidence wasn't good enough?

He'll be acquitted because it was self defense and this prosecutor better have something to justify putting him thru a trial

I still dont understand why it aint premeditated murder, the racist bastard was racially profiling and stalking the child.

 

[JollyRoger]

Hopefully he gets off just to piss off Trayvon's ******ed supporters. Of course, being Amerikkka, the judge will probably sentence him to further her own career and to prove that mob justice works.

Guilt will be determined by a jury and if Zimmerman isfound guilty, sentencing is by the judge who must follow a complex statute in determining the sentence.

You wanted him tried for murder believing the evidence wasn't good enough?

He'll be acquitted because it was self defense and this prosecutor better have something to justify putting him thru a trial

I still dont understand why it aint premeditated murder, the racist bastard was racially profiling and stalking the child.

First of all, I was making a prediction and giving the reason for my prediction.

I want him tried for murder because I believe there is probable cause that he committed the crime. I believe that the initial investigation may have been botched enough so as to make it easier for the defense team to establish reasonable doubt. As for 1st degree or 2nd degee murder, to me premeditation means he had the specific intent to kill Martin when he started the stalking - I do not believe that to be the case and it would be very difficult to prove. Under 2nd degree murder, you do not have to prove specific intent - the stalking can be evidence to help meet the depraved mind standard.

 

[JonBonham]

I still dont understand why it aint premeditated murder, the racist bastard was racially profiling and stalking the child.

Is this sarcasm? The internets is impossible to tell. If not, what happened to leaning towards Zimmerman's side of the story?

 

[Berzerker]

First of all, I was making a prediction and giving the reason for my prediction.

A prediction based on the lack of evidence... Which is apparently enough to put him on trial for murder. Sorry, hate to be a pain in the ass

Is this sarcasm? The internets is impossible to tell. If not, what happened to leaning towards Zimmerman's side of the story?

Yes

 

[JollyRoger]

A prediction based on the lack of evidence... Which is apparently enough to put him on trial for murder. Sorry, hate to be a pain in the ass

I have indicated that the initial investigation may have been sloppy, not that there is a lack of evidence. OJ Simpson should have been put on trial and Casey Anthony should have been put on trial - but in both of those cases I correctly predicted acquittals.

 

[woody60707]

I have indicated that the initial investigation may have been sloppy, not that there is a lack of evidence. OJ Simpson should have been put on trial and Casey Anthony should have been put on trial - but in both of those cases I correctly predicted acquittals.

You damn liburs and your endless spending!

Honestly, the invasion of nations would cost less if we went with your idea of the justice system.

 

[Berzerker]

"May have been sloppy" dont mean much if it doesn't translate into a lack of evidence, whereas the evidence against OJ was quite strong.

I dont even know what they're charging him with... Pulling a gun and shooting somebody or shooting an attacker he shouldn't have shot?

 

[MobBoss]

Second Degree is what they use when someone ends up dead in a bar fight. And it's kind of a crap shot as the line of Second Degree and manslaughter is a very fuzzy one. But a Second Degree charge does help get someone on manslaughter in a case like this. If you can get the jury to believe the person is guilty, but not beyond a reasonable doubt, it's easier for the jury to "split the difference" and find in manslaughter, then if it was just manslaughter alone.

He isnt being charged with manslaughter however (afaik), for him to get manslaughter, wouldnt he have to plea down to that? Or is there something in Florida rules that allows them to convict of a lesser charge if the initial one isnt proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

Couple of thoughts:

Where on earth can the guy get a fair trial in Florida?

I see these charges largely as appeasement - its something we in the military call the 'do something' disease.....in other words 'doing something' no matter how meaningless is generally seen as more beneficial that simply doing nothing even if doing nothing is the absolutely correct course of action.

 

[attackfighter]

??? Dude, there kid was shot dead. Of course everyone should be supporters of them.

Thousands of kids die each day. Trayvon's death is just overblown media sensation. The best ending for this story would be FEMA busting down the doors of CNN's headquarters and unloading on all of the scum who drove this story so far. ANd as for the rioters themselves? I think it's time for some good old nerve stapling.

 

[JollyRoger]

He isnt being charged with manslaughter however (afaik), for him to get manslaughter, wouldnt he have to plea down to that? Or is there something in Florida rules that allows them to convict of a lesser charge if the initial one isnt proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

Couple of thoughts:

Where on earth can the guy get a fair trial in Florida?

I see these charges largely as appeasement - its something we in the military call the 'do something' disease.....in other words 'doing something' no matter how meaningless is generally seen as more beneficial that simply doing nothing even if doing nothing is the absolutely correct course of action.

Manslaughter would be considered a lesser included offense, so he can be convicted on that.

As for a fair trial in Floriduh, it seems Casey Anthony got an acquittal on the big charges against her, so one can be had.

I don't see the charges as appeasement. I see it as letting a jury decide the facts (assuming the judge doesn't shut it down on a stand-your-ground motion). I'm a bit suprised that you see it as appeasement. If I recall correctly, you were saying that those that were outraged should just let a court decide.

I dont even know what they're charging him with... Pulling a gun and shooting somebody or shooting an attacker he shouldn't have shot?

Killing someone without justification.

Thousands of kids die each day. Trayvon's death is just overblown media sensation. The best ending for this story would be FEMA busting down the doors of CNN's headquarters and unloading on all of the scum who drove this story so far. ANd as for the rioters themselves? I think it's time for some good old nerve stapling.

Neither the media nor the protesters killed Martin.

 

[MobBoss]

I feel that all the hype and bias from the media in this case has forced charges to be filed in order to calm things down. Martins parents were quoted as saying all they wanted was at least an arrest...so they got that.

But now, if the facts as they come out support Martins side of the case what will the mantra be of guys like Sharpton and Jackson? If Zimmerman walks, what then?

 

[JollyRoger]

I feel that all the hype and bias from the media in this case has forced charges to be filed in order to calm things down. Martins parents were quoted as saying all they wanted was at least an arrest...so they got that.

But now, if the facts as they come out support Martins side of the case what will the mantra be of guys like Sharpton and Jackson? If Zimmerman walks, what then?

Sharpton and Jackson will react just like Nancy Grace and her ilk did over Casey Anthony. All I wanted was an arrest and fair trial. If Zimmrman walks, hats off to the defense lawyers so far as I am concerned.

 

[attackfighter]

JollyRoger, what do you think of the African warlords who rape, torture and kill thousands of their countrymen every single day of the year? Do you care? If so why do you consider George Zimmerman's case to be so important compared to their vastly more sinister crimes?

 

[JollyRoger]

JollyRoger, what do you think of the African warlords who rape, torture and kill thousands of their countrymen every single day of the year? Do you care? If so why do you consider George Zimmerman's case to be so important compared to their vastly more sinister crimes?

I think the African warlords have a bit of ground to make up to match some of the European examples in history. Nevertheless, I do not think that Zimmerman's lawyer will be successful with the African warlord defense. American courts do not require a prosecution to be delayed until all the world's more important problems are solved.

And I ask you, why is it so important that you post in this thread when you could be off fighting African warlords or at least starting a thread on that far more important topic?

 

[attackfighter]

I think the African warlords have a bit of ground to make up to match some of the European examples in history. Nevertheless, I do not think that Zimmerman's lawyer will be successful with the African warlord defense. American courts do not require a prosecution to be delayed until all the world's more important problems are solved.

This doesn't explain why you devote attention to a single murder in Amerika, when there are so many human rights violations going on in other parts of the world that are ignored.

"First world problems".

And I ask you, why is it so important that you post in this thread when you could be off fighting African warlords or at least starting a thread on that far more important topic?

Unlike you I don't posture and claim to be championing some sort of moral ideal.