[NFP] Vietnam Discussion Thread

[Kupe Navigator]

My first game after the patch would be like this:
Me ( Vietnam) VS China ( Kublai Khan), Korea, Japan, Khmer, Indonesia.
Continent map Wet.
Basically South East and East Asian game.

 

[CoconutTank]

The thing about bonus 1 movement when starting from greenery is that it costs 1 additional movement to get onto the tile in the first place. For movement over long distances outside of one's territory, it's not necessarily net bonus movement. And if the opposing civ's been doing a lot of chopping, there's even less opportunity to make use of the greenery bonus offensively.

Even so, definitely looking forward to trying out a faster and more nimble xbow unit.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think Trung Trac could have had essentially the same personality, but that's not quite the same as having a catchy quote that practically necessitates it.

Also, something something more overt feminist representation.

If they wanted to have a female leader for Vietnam it obviously came down to the two of them. They probably chose Lady Trieu because they would have had to implement both sisters somehow whether it be on the screen, or to make her a LUU like a unique Great General, which those were just covered by Simon Bolivar.

 

[Bug Repellent]

Sad to say it, but I kind of had similar thoughts, although actually, I think the fact that you can put districts ON rainforest, woods, and marsh (rather than needing bronze working/irrigation/mining to chop them) can open up some very rapid district sites, in some niche situations. I can't count how many times I really wanted to place a juicy campus or holy site as Brazil except I hadn't unlocked bronze working yet! But yeah overall... turtling is not really that good of a playstyle if it isn't accompanied by a really HUGE bonus to a passive victory type like Korea gets.

Thanks for your reply. Vietnam might very well be fun to play, but my take on it is that this civ is a bit all over the place to be dominant for any type of victory. So it will be mediocre at all of them. In general not being able to place a district because of a rainforest tile quite frankly happens in your capital and maybe in your second city for at most one district (you won't have the population for more), but it's situational. And even if it does happen, you can mitigate it by turn 30ish (you're not gonna wait until turn 30 to unlock mining if you're looking to make use of unique crossbowmen!). On the other hand, Vietnam needs woods and forests to place districts, so building high adjacency districts will be a real challenge for 100 turns until it gets to Medieval Faeries. And even with medieval faeries, you need to waste a builder charge just to place a district down. You'll probably reroll until you get a good start with lots of woods, but can you do it reliably for 12-16 cities? I don't think so. If I need a builder to plant woods just to place a district, this means I waste one out of three builder charges. That's an indirect builder penalty because I need more builders than other civs. Furthermore, imagine how difficult it would be for Vietnam to get wonders on deity in the first 100 turns. How many forest tiles it needs for one wonder and 3 specialty districts??? 7-9 wooded tiles? That's asking for a lot of forests! And if you do have that many forested tiles, where is your production early on since you cannot improve forests until lumber mills? If you're not chopping you're missing out on population, meaning you're working fewer tiles and you're having fewer districts, etc. For all its bonuses, my guess is this civ will have a rather slow start. Yes, it's fun to imagine rushing your neighbor with your UU, but can you do it quickly enough though? I have a hard time believing Vietnam will have the production, the science, the culture and the gold to get in position before turn 100.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

better than going for one leader that everyone knows Ho Chi Mihn. No offense to him but he is just linked to the communist state of Vietnam too much. Vietnam is more than communist nation.

Civ developers love communism. Civ4 State Workforce, Civ5 Order, Civ6 Communism are all the best government you can choose in that era.

I found that in nearly 70% of my Civ6 games I research Class Struggle and choose Communism. In the latter 30% the game finishes before Ideology. 0 times I choose Fascism or Suffrage.

 

[Pietato]

The Hobbit films occupy a unique space in that their very existence offends me. Unlike the LotR films (which I don't like either due to my great veneration for Tolkien, but I grant they were great films), they had no heart or love put into them. They were just soulless corporate CGI money-milkers.

Peter Jackson is a massive sellout.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Thanks for your reply. Vietnam might very well be fun to play, but my take on it is that this civ is a bit all over the place to be dominant for any type of victory. So it will be mediocre at all of them. In general not being able to place a district because of a rainforest tile quite frankly happens in your capital and maybe in your second city for at most one district (you won't have the population for more), but it's situational. And even if it does happen, you can mitigate it by turn 30ish (you're not gonna wait until turn 30 to unlock mining if you're looking to make use of unique crossbowmen!). On the other hand, Vietnam needs woods and forests to place districts, so building high adjacency districts will be a real challenge for 100 turns until it gets to Medieval Faeries. And even with medieval faeries, you need to waste a builder charge just to place a district down. You'll probably reroll until you get a good start with lots of woods, but can you do it reliably for 12-16 cities? I don't think so. If I need a builder to plant woods just to place a district, this means I waste one out of three builder charges. That's an indirect builder penalty because I need more builders than other civs. Furthermore, imagine how difficult it would be for Vietnam to get wonders on deity in the first 100 turns. How many forest tiles it needs for one wonder and 3 specialty districts??? 7-9 wooded tiles? That's asking for a lot of forests! And if you do have that many forested tiles, where is your production early on since you cannot improve forests until lumber mills? If you're not chopping you're missing out on population, meaning you're working fewer tiles and you're having fewer districts, etc. For all its bonuses, my guess is this civ will have a rather slow start. Yes, it's fun to imagine rushing your neighbor with your UU, but can you do it quickly enough though? I have a hard time believing Vietnam will have the production, the science, the culture and the gold to get in position before turn 100.

Vietnam need a lot of woods, sure. If you don't have woods you're sucked.

However, even if you have woods, for other Civs, having woods means a lot of early and mid-game production that can help you speed up your progress quite a lot. Simply chopping them will grant you wonder, districts, settlers, builders, troops, anything you want. However, for Vietnam you have to keep those woods, and you only get proper science and culture in return after you complete all buildings in a district, which means very lately.

So even with a woody start Vietnam is not as good as normal Civs.
The combat bonus is very defensive. Not aggressive. The defender simply needs to chop down all his woods (which is also good for his development in most cases), and the Vietnam then becomes blank.

Maybe one solution is to try using the combat bonus to capture Civs whose abilities do not encourage chopping woods, like progressive USA, Brazil, Maori, Kongo or Australia.

 

[Bug Repellent]

So if a VC ends its turn on a wooded/rainforest hill tiles, without considering the movement bonus it will get next turn, it will get at least +11 on defense (+16 if it is in VN territory).

It will be a tough cookie, but not invincible. 3-4 knights with charge (+10 combat against fortified defender) will have 58 melee strength against your 46 VC. And the knight is mobile enough to mitigate VC's hit and run tactic. If I see Vietnam next to me I'll definitely train a few heavy chariots and try to get 1-2 promotions for them before Vietnam gets to VC. If you're anticipating a VC attack, knights are your best bet imho.

 

[Pietato]

Civ developers love communism. Civ4 State Workforce, Civ5 Order, Civ6 Communism are all the best government you can choose in that era.

I found that in nearly 70% of my Civ6 games I research Class Struggle and choose Communism. In the latter 30% the game finishes before Ideology. 0 times I choose Fascism or Suffrage.

No external trade routes when you instantly declare war on everyone, eh?

 

[Bug Repellent]

Vietnam need a lot of woods, sure. If you don't have woods you're sucked.

However, even if you have woods, for other Civs, having woods means a lot of early and mid-game production that can help you speed up your progress quite a lot. Simply chopping them will grant you wonder, districts, settlers, builders, troops, anything you want. However, for Vietnam you have to keep those woods, and you only get proper science and culture in return after you complete all buildings in a district, which means very lately.

So even with a woody start Vietnam is not as good as normal Civs.
The combat bonus is very defensive. Not aggressive. The defender simply needs to chop down all his woods (which is also good for his development in most cases), and the Vietnam then becomes blank.

Maybe one solution is to try using the combat bonus to capture Civs whose abilities do not encourage chopping woods, like progressive USA, Brazil, Maori, Kongo or Australia.

Exactly! Out of curiosity I went on youtube and checked a few of potato's and TGM's playthroughs to see how Vietnam might do and quite frankly, I was not impressed. Even in the clip released by Firaxis today if you look at Vietnam's capital it has a rather pitiful production. (At 0:31 sec you see a capital on turn 112 that has....drumroll.... +11 production for 7 population. At turn 163 it has +29 production). This is not my idea of a powerful civ. Fun to play? Sure!

 

[Sostratus]

The combat bonus is very defensive. Not aggressive. The defender simply needs to chop down all his woods (which is also good for his development in most cases), and the Vietnam then becomes blank.

Can Legions chop woods in enemy lands?
Ave, true to Caesar...

At first I was thinking these guys will be nuts but then realized you are sacrificing chops on your (pre-medieval faires) districts, which is tough on high difficulty. You can still abuse the elephant UU a lot in most terrain (a lone woods in the middle of a plain still enables shoot-n-scoot.) Now, leveraging the encampment may still be a path forward. After all, you can easily just place 3 of them in a triangle or something and rake in the bonus 12 culture from that little trick.

Even in the clip released by Firaxis today if you look at Vietnam's capital it has a rather pitiful production. (At 0:31 sec you see a capital on turn 112 that has....drumroll.... +11 production for 7 population. At turn 163 it has +29 production). This is not my idea of a powerful civ

Sometimes in first look videos they just basically edit in the map they want, so its not very representative of a real gameplay. I think in the inca reveal they had used firetuner and as a result had like 70,000 gold banked in the classical era.

 

[Josephias]

If they wanted to have a female leader for Vietnam it obviously came down to the two of them. They probably chose Lady Trieu because they would have had to implement both sisters somehow whether it be on the screen, or to make her a LUU like a unique Great General, which those were just covered by Simon Bolivar.

I will not discard the impact of recent Watchmen series by HBO too.
Altough completely unrelated, the series was quite succesful, and brought the character of Trieu into mainstream culture, making her a recognizable name.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

we will have to wait till Thursday to see how well Vietnam performs...

 

[fy00sh]

I'm not sure if the bug where districts placed on bonus resources wouldn't remove them is still around, but I remember you were able to harvest these resources even after you put a district on top of them. Features don't seem to be removed when Vietnam puts districts on top of them so I wonder if the game would allow you to chop the features under the districts.

im wondering, like some other posters here, if you can then plant woods around a district... and then what would happen to the building's bonuses? for example:
you build a campus on rainforest, then build a library, then chop the rainforest, then build a university, then plant woods, then build a research lab
i could see three outcomes:
1. the bonuses are determined when the district is built. all the campus buildings get +1 science. i feel like this option would nerf capturing foreign cities since youll never get the bonuses in districts that're already there when you capture it
2. the bonuses are determined when the buildings are built. the library gets +1 science, university gets nothing, and research lab gets +1 culture
3. the bonuses adapt to what's currently on the district. the library gets +1 science, loses it when the rainforest gets chopped, and the library and uni both get +1 culture as soon as you plant the woods

in any case, i wonder if forest fires can disable the bonus? and how rebuilding a pillaged district/building affects each of these?

so many unanswered questions......

 

[Starina]

What is the name of her headdress?

 

[Pfeffersack]

Another civ with a UD (and here even one with a special for all specialty districts, the required and kept Marsh/Forest/Rainforest feature) adds another instance where conquering and taking over cities creates a situation where the game has to decide what happens with the conquered districts in different cases. While capturing a UD as civ without having a different UD for the same district type (and vice versa) is no problem, the game handles the case of two UDs being involved very problematic:

[1.0.2.39] Cothon / Royal Navy Dockyard unusable after capturing with England / Phoenicia | CivFanatics Forums

Already the destruction is debatable, but at least rebuilding should work then. Vietnam of course further complicates the scene here, because it raises the question what happens with the persisting feature below a conquered Vietnamese speciality district... In the opposite case (Vietnam conquering a city) I expect that you keep featureless speciality districts (probably with the Zulu UD falling under issue linked above), though I guess Vietnam will be another civ for which razing is nice alternative.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Vietnam has interesting gameplay, but I doubt that AI will be able to handle city placement. I see Vietnamese cities in deserts and open plains without any specialized district.

We will see. Hammurabi certainly is able to skip through tech tree quite nicely - at crew in medieval, oh yeahhhh - last eureka update does feel like it was towards him unable to go further than 40+ techs as he did feel like stuck after being first for almost full game. But back to Vietnam. I believe the early forest planting is also made so that it's AI won't be completely clueless after several turns. (I assume thanks to bias start first few cities are gonna expand as they should).
EDIT: removed unnecessary quote

 

[clapyourhands]

What is the name of her headdress?
View attachment 582428

Looks like a turban to me. Khăn vấn / mấn of some kind?

 

[Starina]

I don’t think so. I ask because it is very similar to some types of Russian kokoshnik

Spoiler :

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Can I say just how awesome Vietnam theme is? I can't wait for Fraxis to release full version. It is already becoming my favorite NFP theme. ( then again I am a bit of sucker for Asian music...)

it really is a shame that Thành looks too generic... especially compared to another Encampment UD- Ikanda ) it looks way more unique.