Vincentz Infinite Projects [VIP MOD]

[vincentz]

Maybe a lessened number of cities or distance cost? Democracy doesn't really need a focused bonus as it comes with a penalty to others.

I think I'll leave it with the penalty, and see what happens.

It's been my experience, so far, that Democracy is not used by the AI. Caste on the other hand is used by all. Even Serfdom is not used, as they prefer Caste. I in fact, have switched to caste over serfdom. And most of the AI will hold to the starting civics well into the game before switching to the next level of civics. Caste being the obvious exception, the AI almost beelines for it. Vassalage is probably the 2nd most used by the AI. I rarely use it though, unless I get into an early protracted war.

I personally have never understood the reasoning for 100% war weariness for Democracy. Quite frankly it doesn't fit how America and Democracy work together. We have our Hawks and Doves and it waffles back and forth with whomever has control of the Congress. 50% would be more fitting, not 100%.

And how did Mercantile get turned around? No foreign trade? The Dutch invented Mercantilism and traded all over the world. I still scratch my head over that one.

I'll look over the Civics,as a whole, and how the current game AI Civs are using them a bit more and give some feedback.

JosEPh

The democrazy's war weariness has showed up, in combination with free speech, several times in America. (Vietnam propably being the best example) But america also has a lot of anti war weariness wonders

I am going to leave caste as is then (without the counterintuitiveness).

I removed state religion from Paganism and removed the health boni from Enviromentalism, but replaced it with No Unhealth From Population. I never used it before, but this small change (with all the pollution in VIP) will propably make it usefull later on.
I also removed the +10% and from Monarchy. It was to powerfull. But might add a small thing later.
And I gave Imperial Cult a +1 from State Religion.

And how did Mercantile get turned around? No foreign trade? The Dutch invented Mercantilism and traded all over the world. I still scratch my head over that one.

And I had to scratch my head even more as it has foreign trade, and has had since version 0.2. What it doesnt have is Foreign Corporations.

The Guilds on the other hand doesnt have foreign trade. I did a lot of research on european guilds, and I believe that effect symbolizes guilds quite good.

 

[JosEPh_II]

And how did Mercantile get turned around? No foreign trade? The Dutch invented Mercantilism and traded all over the world. I still scratch my head over that one.

And I had to scratch my head even more as it has foreign trade, and has had since version 0.2. What it doesnt have is Foreign Corporations.

The Guilds on the other hand doesnt have foreign trade. I did a lot of research on european guilds, and I believe that effect symbolizes guilds quite good.

I played some C2C last night and that was where that came from. Just showing my age.

JosEPh

 

[vincentz]

thats nothing. I just found out today that the Industry Improvement resources was giving food?!? instead of production. How the heck could I have missed that one.

I'm uploading now (with my brand new 6MB/1MB connection), so it should be up in a couple of minutes. (though it never got above 3MB dl and 600KB upload )

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Uploaded VIP79.

I removed the : "Under construction" as the mod can now be played to the end, but that doesnt mean its finished

 

[JosEPh_II]

(though it never got above 3MB dl and 600KB upload )

Even the 600KB looks good from my end, and 3MB, I'd faint dead away for that kind of speed.

Local phone company won't be able to get that to me until late summer at best. So I'm still stuck with slow Satellite , although they swear it's high Speed internet! It sure comes at a High Cost, $70/mo for 1MB down (which you Never get) and 200kb up (which you also do not get). But what can you do when you live in the middle of Corn fields? <sigh>

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Suggestion: could you start putting the version number up in the corner of the load screen of the Mod and maybe in game when you mouse over your flag near the next turn button? If it's not too much of a hassle that is.

JosEPh

 

[vincentz]

Id rather not. the first because then I (and others (if any)) need to update my VIP desktop ShortCut (which I use maybe 100 times per day.) The second because its a hassle, and putting up version after version as I do at the moment, I would surely forget it

Even the 600KB looks good from my end, and 3MB, I'd faint dead away for that kind of speed.

Local phone company won't be able to get that to me until late summer at best. So I'm still stuck with slow Satellite , although they swear it's high Speed internet! It sure comes at a High Cost, $70/mo for 1MB down (which you Never get) and 200kb up (which you also do not get). But what can you do when you live in the middle of Corn fields? <sigh>

JosEPh

Well, I only pay 24 dollars, and thats included a WiFi modem and unlimited usage, so I guess I cant complain. And I got it friday, so I havent testet it except in the "Rush hours" in the weekend.

 

[JosEPh_II]

okay then no version #.

$24! I live in the wrong place!

JosEPh

 

[vincentz]

If you want a version # you can rename the folder when you unzip it. that will do the trick for the top corner.

 

[Red Boxer]

So I was sailing this galleon packed with explorers over to the new world, there is an island chain which juts out into the ocean where one of my caravels was going to meet it when they ran into the Great Barbarian Cog fleet. The caravel, of course being much weaker managed to kill 3 or 4 of the cogs before escaping to the open water. The galleon on the other hand was sunk by two cogs. Looks like I'm going to need a bigger boat.

The Golden Age bonus from the Goldsmiths' Guild is awesome. I had popped one GA, then the built the Taj, so I am going to have a 74 turn GA.

 

[vincentz]

So I was sailing this galleon packed with explorers over to the new world, there is an island chain which juts out into the ocean where one of my caravels was going to meet it when they ran into the Great Barbarian Cog fleet. The caravel, of course being much weaker managed to kill 3 or 4 of the cogs before escaping to the open water. The galleon on the other hand was sunk by two cogs. Looks like I'm going to need a bigger boat.

The Golden Age bonus from the Goldsmiths' Guild is awesome. I had popped one GA, then the built the Taj, so I am going to have a 74 turn GA.

74! holy mackerel!
Marathon speed? (or epic with a well established Goldsmith guild )

Let me know if you find some stuff unbalancing.
How is the AI doing with the civic changes?
How is speed. any lag or mafs? High memory consumption?

 

[Red Boxer]

74! holy mackerel!
Marathon speed? (or epic with a well established Goldsmith guild )

Let me know if you find some stuff unbalancing.
How is the AI doing with the civic changes?
How is speed. any lag or mafs? High memory consumption?

Well, that's most of two GAs, but I am playing on Epic. My guild was rather established at that point, but that bonus winds up being huge, much larger than having 23 sources of horses (between the Stud wonder, Equestrian Guild, and normal horses). Perhaps some balance could be found there.

I haven't paid much attention to the AIs' civic changes, but they have waged some awesome wars. However they (the AI) don't seem that adept at working within the confines of the new unit production system, they don't seem to value Militia as soaking defenders at all.

One cosmetic thing I noticed is that the 50% conversions of hammers to gold/sci/culture don't obsolete when the 100% versions come around, that'd be nice to clean up.

The rate at which (strategic?) resources pop might be a little high, if you want them to be strategic. There is too so much of everything, in my game.

The speed is pretty good at this point by saves are about 1.5 meg and I've only experience a few crashes at no regular intervals.

 

[vincentz]

1)...much larger than having 23 sources of horses

2) However they (the AI) don't seem that adept at working within the confines of the new unit production system, 2b) they don't seem to value Militia as soaking defenders at all.

3) One cosmetic thing I noticed is that the 50% conversions of hammers to gold/sci/culture don't obsolete when the 100% versions come around, that'd be nice to clean up.

4) The rate at which (strategic?) resources pop might be a little high, if you want them to be strategic. There is too so much of everything, in my game.

5) The speed is pretty good at this point by saves are about 1.5 meg and I've only experience a few crashes at no regular intervals.

1) You play mongols eh? I have to rebalance all the guilds, as most of it was done with Rise of Mankind in mind. The Equestrian especially (there were no Stud in RoM).

2) The tests/games I played showed otherwise, but its only on Normal Speed, and Epic does change the gameplay somehow, even though on paper its only x2 in speed.
2b) The militia was made for Drafting and in case a civ ended up with no resources at all. Then they wouldnt have to use clubs and primitive bows, even though properly tech'ed, which would be to easy to destroy.

3) Unfortunately there isnt a Obsolete tag for Processes. I thought about that myself.

4) Again, this AFAIK doesnt scale with gamespeeds, so there would be twice as many popping on Epic than Normal. I have to play Epic later, but right now Normal is the best so I can test unit strenght/building cost/balancing. But I did make certain strategic resources commonly pop. (Iron is the most common metal on planet earth), and the idea behind the Plantation and Pasture (among others) are that they would actually grow something (sometime).

5) 1.5 megs! Is that Huge or Giant? And I'm not happy to hear it crashes. Was it memory allocation failures (MAFs)? Whats your system? (mem/cpu/OS) and did you activate the /3GB switch?

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Fixed shadow for Primitive Boat (was galleyshadow before)
have some issue with Financial Trait. It gives 1 to many (unless Im really bad at conting)

 

[Red Boxer]

2) The tests/games I played showed otherwise, but its only on Normal Speed, and Epic does change the gameplay somehow, even though on paper its only x2 in speed.
2b) The militia was made for Drafting and in case a civ ended up with no resources at all. Then they wouldnt have to use clubs and primitive bows, even though properly tech'ed, which would be to easy to destroy.

3) Unfortunately there isnt a Obsolete tag for Processes. I thought about that myself.

4) Again, this AFAIK doesnt scale with gamespeeds, so there would be twice as many popping on Epic than Normal. I have to play Epic later, but right now Normal is the best so I can test unit strenght/building cost/balancing. But I did make certain strategic resources commonly pop. (Iron is the most common metal on planet earth), and the idea behind the Plantation and Pasture (among others) are that they would actually grow something (sometime).

5) 1.5 megs! Is that Huge or Giant? And I'm not happy to hear it crashes. Was it memory allocation failures (MAFs)? Whats your system? (mem/cpu/OS) and did you activate the /3GB switch?

2) I meant in how they defend their cities. Militia are a nice unit to have a bunch of to help keep a city around while you muster an army to defend the city.

4) That makes sense. I guess being human I just build a wide variety of improvements and wind up reaping the benefits.

5) I'm playing on Large I believe. Crashed happen from time to time in almost any mod I'm playing, I get a graphics error of some sort and boom-goes-the-dynamite. I haven't got them with any kind of frequency with your mod and I haven't had any MAFs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

One cosmetic thing I noticed is that the 50% conversions of hammers to gold/sci/culture don't obsolete when the 100% versions come around, that'd be nice to clean up.

I actually disagree here. I like having the option of either 50% or 100%. It gives some room for options.

However they (the AI) don't seem that adept at working within the confines of the new unit production system, they don't seem to value Militia as soaking defenders at all.

From my observations I believe the Militia's movement limitation is one reason the AI doesn't use them (2 movement vs 5+ movement). That and most of the AI don't use Drafting (except Shaka and even he doesn't till he's about to be destroyed. Which will be soon!)

As for the economic Civics, there is Too long of a gap between Decentralization and Guilds. There needs to be an interim Civic that is a step above Decentralization. And Guilds civic isn't anything to shoot for either. Even I wait till Mercantilism before switching from DC. With Free Market as the Goal.

What good does Emancipation actually give you? Make other civs have a few more :angry: faces? I find there's too much loss from the earlier Civics in this category to use it. Unless it's got some kind of "hidden" perk it doesn't have the "punch" like it did back in CIV II.

I must still be overlooking the obvious, I just don't see the advantage of having Guilds. The advantage just isn't that noticeable to me, at least from Equestrian, Blacksmith, and Carpentry. I'm sure it's doing something but it's just not an "obvious" boost to me. Not like Bank, Market, and Grocer. And why does Bazaar now show up After Grocer?

Of course all my Observations are on Epic speed.

JosEPh

 

[vincentz]

1) I actually disagree here. I like having the option of either 50% or 100%. It gives some room for options.

2) From my observations I believe the Militia's movement limitation is one reason the AI doesn't use them (2 movement vs 5+ movement). That and most of the AI don't use Drafting (except Shaka and even he doesn't till he's about to be destroyed. Which will be soon!)

3) As for the economic Civics, there is Too long of a gap between Decentralization and Guilds. There needs to be an interim Civic that is a step above Decentralization. 3b) And Guilds civic isn't anything to shoot for either. Even I wait till Mercantilism before switching from DC. With Free Market as the Goal.

4) What good does Emancipation actually give you? Make other civs have a few more :angry: faces? I find there's too much loss from the earlier Civics in this category to use it. Unless it's got some kind of "hidden" perk it doesn't have the "punch" like it did back in CIV II.

5) I must still be overlooking the obvious, I just don't see the advantage of having Guilds. The advantage just isn't that noticeable to me, at least from Equestrian, Blacksmith, and Carpentry. I'm sure it's doing something but it's just not an "obvious" boost to me. Not like Bank, Market, and Grocer.

6) And why does Bazaar now show up After Grocer?

Of course all my Observations are on Epic speed.

JosEPh

1) There is no reason to choose a 50% when there is a 100% in the same "category"

2) I think militia is ok. they should only be used as an emergency unit, and is quite useless on the battlefield. but they can be used for city defense on non threatened cities.

3) And before I added guilds there was nothing between decentralization and mercantilism, though I tend to agree with you. Legal also needs an earlier civic, and I'd like to actually put a Fundamentalism in Religion. Maybe put a Technocracy in Government. Labour???
3b) I think Guilds civic is quite powerfull. +1 Specialist can be a very nice addition to early built cities.

4) 100% Growth for Industry, Tradeposts and Cottage2Towns is pretty powerfull in itself. The penalty for not having it is 400% (compared to 200% for Democracy and 100% for Free Speech) and can be quite devasting.

5) Guilds are quite powerfull. Carpenters give 1 specialist for every lumbermill in the citys cross. Having 5 forests give you 5! specialists. Its definately one of the best Guilds even though the direct bonus is rather small.
Equestrians give units the Mobility promotion which again is super powerfull.
Apothecaries works the same way as Red Cross, (giving Medic I) but in all the cities.
Artists give a free Artist specialist and reduce the war weariness plus adding a nice
Blacksmith gives good production and also +20% military production.
Clerks give free Scientist and helps against spies plus it give +1 for each scientist.
Drapers guild gives warweariness to your enemies and a nice from Clothing resources
Masons give a nice bonus from Marble and Stone and gives the city a defense bonus almost like it was built of .... stone
and as mentioned the Goldsmiths guild can give you a serious Golden Age.

The Victuallers Guilds give their required building to all cities when founded.

the only useless Guild is the Glassblowers Guild. And its also the hardest to get as the NW Glassworks needs to be in the city that has the Craftsmens Master Guild.

6) because of the resources it uses.

 

[xarver]

America isn't even a democracy, really. It is a Federal Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_republic
Athens was a true democracy, everything is voted by the people.

Democracy should not cause war weariness. If you look at Athens the people declared war all the time, there wasn't a 2 year period where they weren't in war with someone. The people served in the military to fight against the Persians.

I think democracy should give +3 or 4 but have increased city maintenance costs... Athens was only an empire once in its lifetime. It should also decrease revolution chances because there's no need for one.

And is there an oligarchy civic? If not I think it would be a great civic for this mod. (Oligarchy is similar to George Orwell's 1984 by the way) It should increase wealth from trade routes and increase solider production, while increasing city maintenance and having high revolution chances if you have multiple cities.

Another civic to add could be Corporatocracy. It's a government run by corporations, so it could increase the wealth generated by corporations and wealth by trade routes, but have severe unhappiness bonuses.

 

[vincentz]

and Denmark is a parlimentary Democracy and then the list could go on and on
I think a common (and broad) description of America is democracy as most of the western world fall under that category. I dont want to expand the list to much or make to many modifiers, as some mods do that, cos I dislike that (I always tend to pick the same one, and it increases the IMO bad micromanagement side of civ (not to say micromanagement is bad. its the reason I play civ ).
Its a little bit the same with religions as there are some mods that adds tons of them, but then every civ gets their own, and then the point of religions vanishes (IMHO).

In civ I think Athen would fall under republic.

I dont understand the opinions against warweariness in a democracy. At least in europe there is a strong opinion against waging wars, and when once declared and people come home in bodybags its even more severe (which is what war weariness does) and from what the media tells me, there is as well in America (maybe stronger on the democrat's than on the republican side).

I did add a Corporate Workforce under Labor.

I thought about giving democracy a happiness bonus, but then I thought about giving it an unhappiness bonus too ?!?
I think people are not happy about having a democracy. Its just better than all the other we have tried
Which is why I gave it a for civs NOT having democracy.

edit : BTW : VIP doesnt have Revolutions or RevDCM added. (for 3 reasons : 1. I wouldnt know where to start when dealing with bugs. 2. Multiplayer 3. Stability issues. More or less every mod I have seen using RevDCM has the infinite loop or other issues (which bring me to 1. I would have no clue to fix it)

 

[xarver]

and Denmark is a parlimentary Democracy and then the list could go on and on
I think a common (and broad) description of America is democracy as most of the western world fall under that category. I dont want to expand the list to much or make to many modifiers, as some mods do that, cos I dislike that (I always tend to pick the same one, and it increases the IMO bad micromanagement side of civ (not to say micromanagement is bad. its the reason I play civ ).
Its a little bit the same with religions as there are some mods that adds tons of them, but then every civ gets their own, and then the point of religions vanishes (IMHO).

In civ I think Athen would fall under republic.

Not really. A republic is where you pick representatives in government.
Athens was a direct democracy, meaning there was no leader, and everyone got to control government.
And again, America is hardly a democracy, we don't come up with the laws and vote for all of them.
"These principles are reflected in all citizens being equal before the law and having equal access to power." to quote wikipedia. We as citizens don't have access to the same power that people in Congress and the House of Reps have.

And a shame there is no revolution aspect... It really does add to the game.

 

[Red Boxer]

A republic is where you pick representatives in government.

No it isn't, at least not exclusively. That would be a representative government. Republic is something of a catch-all for a huge assortment of governments, mostly as a contrast against monarchies.

Federal Representative Democracy would be a better fit for the US.

 

[xarver]

No it isn't, at least not exclusively. That would be a representative government. Republic is something of a catch-all for a huge assortment of governments, mostly as a contrast against monarchies.

Federal Representative Democracy would be a better fit for the US.

Oops. Got that part wrong. But still, I still don't like that there's nothing about direct democracy. It really influenced the governments we run now.