Virote's Ancient Greek Scenario - Public Alpha

[CivChris]

ah good to hear the epic greeks have not been neglected

well working on a computer in summer isn``t the best thing to do
so i can imagine it`s a slow progressing thing at the moment.


the trun times are really a problem, as i started again, played couple of turns
took forever made other things in beteewn and abondned the game again
and as i remeber it speeds up a bit later but won`t ever be really fluent

i`ve read in another thread (can`t remember wich?!) that taking the goto and explore options from immobile units also speeds up the game, so i guess i`m trying that on your mod the next time.

as well i still gotta check on the athenans

just glad you`re still on this! it`s too promising to leave it as a raw model.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I've removed the "goto" and "explore" buttons from the immobile units now. I hope this helps somewhat

 

[Virote_Considon]

Sorry it took so long

Part I of the "Trade" tech tree has been uploaded and added to the first post. I'm going to divide this into 3 parts (one for each era) due to the fact that this update is larger than most (each unit is copied at least 6 times due to the "resource" system and number of civs involved )

So now, these civs are mostly playable (i.e., a first era's supply of units, and a mostly complete tech tree (100% of the techs for the Greek civs!) and all the available units):
-Euboea
-Argos
-Crete
-Iberia
-Ionia
-Lydia
-Thessaly
-Bosporan Kingdom
-Phoenicia
-Messenia
-Sheba
-Magna Graecia

Furthermore, Phoenicia already has its UU in place. (The only other civ at this point in time who will get an ancient era UU is Euboea, but this UU is a special case because it comes with a culture-specific tech )

In the next update, as well as adding all the units for the Archaic era, I may add the improvements and wonders for all eras. Then in update 3, I'll add in the citizens and the rest of the units, and everything should be in working order after this

Some points to note when playing these guys:

-Most land units require pop! This may be removed later, but I generally want these guys to rely on naval power in the early game, and mercenaries later.

-Unit support is going to hopefully be a real killer early on (especially mixed with the pop. requiring units)! However, once the improvements and wonders are in, you should (hopefully) find that you're gaining plenty of cash by the mid game!

 

[Virote_Considon]

Okay. There's a reason I'm not posting much updates in this thread. Every time I think of this mod, I'm getting depressed. I don't like the time limit I've set (I love the Mycenaean era, and the Hittites are one of my favourite ancient civs - these two things are not in the current mod!), and the lag is currently unbearable. I've tried to alter this; I've tried the map without Barbarians (the difference was un-noticeable), and I've got rid of many of the pre-placed "race" resources (such as on all Deserts/Tundra/Forests/Jungles), as this is what I'm blaming for this amount of lag. But there are of course still massive amounts of these resources, particularly on the Eurasian Steppe.

So, I'm going to attempt to resolve these issues, in order to restore this mod as the favourite of the mods I'm making, where it belongs!

1. Add the Mycenaean era This will be pretty easy to do, since I already have a spare era to add. I could in fact fit it around the current tech tree, buildings and units, since I could have a mass weakening of units (going back to only warriors) and improvements/wonders (making them go obsolete), and I could do this via adding one tech at the very beginning of the Doric Era, which is required to progress through the tech tree (and of course eventually reach the much better improvements/wonders). There were originally 2 reasons why this could not have happened. The first was the annoyingly low improvement/wonder limit. This now, thanks to Steph's new editor worship, be resolved, to an extent (i.e. adding in loads of dummy wonders). The second will be that I have to get rid of a couple of civs, so I can fit in Mycenae, Troy and the Hittites. I think Elis, Messenia and Aetolia will have to go. However, in the game, I can make Mycenae "evolve" into Elis, I can split Messenia between Argos (give them the city of Messenia) and Mycenae (give them the city of Pylos). So, the only thorny issue which will arise will be Aetolia, which IMO takes up an over-crowded area of the map, anyway! I can also debate adding in Assyria, although I don't know who I'll replace to do this, or even if I should. Looking at the civ list, I can't see anyone who I could really merge; anyone got any suggestions?

Of course, I'll be heavily editing the victory conditions - The Trojan Horse and Golden Fleece units will make a welcome return as the only flag units, which need to be taken to either Troy or Jerusalem, maybe? I could also add the Arc of Covenant (right word? I forget...) for Sheba to try to return to Jerusalem, so I've got ideas!

2. Heavily alter the resource system

Basically, what this will entail is a few scattered spots of the "race" resources. Every civ will have a basic "generic" unit line which they can build without them, which will typically involve a progression from Warrior(Era1-Era2)->Spearman(Era2-Era3)->Subjugated Hoplite(Eras 3+4) for the Greeks, for example. Each capital will have a race resource or two, and I'll probably put a supply on every island, but other than that, you're probably going to have to rely on colonies (which when I re-add the Barbarians, will need to be heavily fortified!)

3. A general slowing-down of Barbarians

Basically, I want it to be a few turns before even the strongest of Barbarians can reach and attack your cities, which will hopefully reduce a little of the lag caused by Barbarian monsters looting cities in the first couple of turns!


So, thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

 

[King Coltrane]

Virote, I think this is brilliant. I want to see this scenario completed (and possibly made into a MOD as well... more on that later) but i think there are some things that should be changed/included.

1. civs should be changed a bit. I think Mycenae, Troy, and the Hittites are all needed, but I would honestly debate including Assyria in this. dont get me wrong, i LOVE assyria and I'm currently writing my thesis about it, but I think it would be better to have the Sea Peoples in. I have been dabbling (in my own personal mods) with placing dummy resources in areas i want specific civs to settle/conquer and making these resources only visible to specific civs and making super units to entice said civs. (got the idea from plontinus' rood and the dragon scenario). we could put in resources in mycenae, canaan, cyprus, anatolia, and egypt to entice the sea peoples to invade these areas... would be AWESOME if we could make this work. But the problem with representing both the near east and greece in a scenario like this is that the politics cant really be represented in civ3. for instance, if assyria is as powerful in a civ game as it was in the 7th century BC, theres no way it would fall to babylon/medea/anyone. which brings me to my next point:

2. change the map. I LOVE the current map, but i think it gets too slow and if we focus/crop it down it will be better for the game. I think Egypt and Hatti should both be in, but I think Canaan should be as far east as the map goes. I would say the map should stretch from Canaan in the east to the pillars of heracles in the west, from Abu Simbel in the south to the Alps in the north. other civs (like celts in gaul) can be placed in fewer cities but have their units, terrain, and resources adjusted to make up for smaller territory. i would say all non greeks (other than egypt, phoenecia, carthage (if its gonna be in) hatti, and Israel) should be minor regional players in this game, with possibly cultural or VP victories only to simulate goals of unification or something... that can be worked on later. i think by focusing the map we could reduce turn times, and allow for some more interesting and dynamic gameplay in the Mediterranean. I would even argue that you could push as far back as the Minoans if you want, but thats your call.

i have more ideas, but im tired and rambling a little now... let me know what you think of these ideas and if you like them ill give you some more

 

[Keroro]

Hi Virote. About two weeks back I got a bit of free time and decided to finally playtest this, but then figured that you'd be updating soon and I may as well wait. I started on the Fall from Heaven 2 scenarios instead (the ONLY way to play civ 4 ) and worked on updating Alexander. Hopefully I'll have time to playtest when a Public Beta comes out (if it's still snowing!)

In terms of civ choice I think the Mycenaeans and Hittites would be a cool addition to the mod, but as I see it you have a choice here. As King C says, if these races are in then you really have to have the Sea Peoples and Dorics in as well to simulate the upheavals of the dark age. As an alternative, how would you feel about two mods - one for the late bronze/early iron age (pre-Sea Peoples) and one for the Classical Age (post-Sea Peoples but pre-Makedonian)? If you combine the two into one scenario then it will be hard to keep realistic but not have the Sea Peoples completely obliterate most of your civs. There is also the problem of what to do during the lengthy dark age? Historical sources don't have a lot to say about this period (hence calling it the Dark Age).

Reources - I'm by no means encouraging you to copy me, but I've been going through a re-ordering of resources in Alexander at the moment. It involves having race resources (or specific luxuries only available in a small area) combined with 'capital', 'heartland', 'natural harbour' and 'holy place' resources - in various combinations they allow different buildings in different cities. So far example you can only build a shipyard if you have a natural harbour in the city radius, only build a Persian Satrapal palace where you have a capital and persians in the city radius. It seems to work quite well.

I have been dabbling (in my own personal mods) with placing dummy resources in areas i want specific civs to settle/conquer and making these resources only visible to specific civs and making super units to entice said civs. (got the idea from plontinus' rood and the dragon scenario). we could put in resources in mycenae, canaan, cyprus, anatolia, and egypt to entice the sea peoples to invade these areas... would be AWESOME if we could make this work.

Agreed. It's a good way to try to get the AI to go in a certain direction - in fact it's one of the only ways I can see to get the AI to go in a certain direction. If the Sea Peoples are going to be in then they'll need some encouragement to move towards the right areas.

change the map. I LOVE the current map, but i think it gets too slow and if we focus/crop it down it will be better for the game. I think Egypt and Hatti should both be in, but I think Canaan should be as far east as the map goes. I would say the map should stretch from Canaan in the east to the pillars of heracles in the west, from Abu Simbel in the south to the Alps in the north. other civs (like celts in gaul) can be placed in fewer cities but have their units, terrain, and resources adjusted to make up for smaller territory. i would say all non greeks (other than egypt, phoenecia, carthage (if its gonna be in) hatti, and Israel) should be minor regional players in this game, with possibly cultural or VP victories only to simulate goals of unification or something... that can be worked on later. i think by focusing the map we could reduce turn times, and allow for some more interesting and dynamic gameplay in the Mediterranean. I would even argue that you could push as far back as the Minoans if you want, but thats your call.

I don't mind the map either. But a bit of cropping might well be required. I'm not sure if you've already lost parts, but the original went as far as India and Spain, and I should think you could at least crop them off. You could also crop most of Africa and the northern wastes.

In terms of lag - do you want to post your biq and we can take a look and see what might be slowing things down?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Right, I've been musing over a few ideas...

Firstly, how about if I crop the map as such:

This would get rid of a lot of unused terrain, and I could also axe the Maurya ()

1. civs should be changed a bit. I think Mycenae, Troy, and the Hittites are all needed, but I would honestly debate including Assyria in this. dont get me wrong, i LOVE assyria and I'm currently writing my thesis about it, but I think it would be better to have the Sea Peoples in. I have been dabbling (in my own personal mods) with placing dummy resources in areas i want specific civs to settle/conquer and making these resources only visible to specific civs and making super units to entice said civs. (got the idea from plontinus' rood and the dragon scenario). we could put in resources in mycenae, canaan, cyprus, anatolia, and egypt to entice the sea peoples to invade these areas... would be AWESOME if we could make this work. But the problem with representing both the near east and greece in a scenario like this is that the politics cant really be represented in civ3. for instance, if assyria is as powerful in a civ game as it was in the 7th century BC, theres no way it would fall to babylon/medea/anyone. which brings me to my next point:

I've been musing over this for a while now. Assyria was decided upon since they provide an effective counterbalance in the region to the other superpowers (if they're not there, then Babylonia or Hatti especially will become too strong). To weaken Babylon and Assyria, perhaps they could be in a locked war against each other?

Of course, I still don't know who's going to be axed yet. At the moment, I'm trying a trial period with Illyria out, although I'm not so sure.

On the subject of the Sea People, I like the idea of adding them, but how about giving the early Iberians some Hidden Nationality Sea People units (which will also have low defense), and some improvement which spawns special Sea People galleys every so often? This will also allow for a freeing up of another slot for another civ (perhaps Israel?)

I like the resources idea... I'll try to find some spaces in the resource slots (I think I've got at least 2 slots spare )

In terms of civ choice I think the Mycenaeans and Hittites would be a cool addition to the mod, but as I see it you have a choice here. As King C says, if these races are in then you really have to have the Sea Peoples and Dorics in as well to simulate the upheavals of the dark age.

For the Dorics especially, I think I'll represent via a mixture of weakening down of unit and infrastructure, and perhaps a pre-placed "dummy" resource outside Mycenae, which would make all the other ancient Greek civs want a stake in Mycenaean land!

As an alternative, how would you feel about two mods - one for the late bronze/early iron age (pre-Sea Peoples) and one for the Classical Age (post-Sea Peoples but pre-Makedonian)? If you combine the two into one scenario then it will be hard to keep realistic but not have the Sea Peoples completely obliterate most of your civs. There is also the problem of what to do during the lengthy dark age? Historical sources don't have a lot to say about this period (hence calling it the Dark Age).

I don't think I want to make it into two scenarios. Maybe when I've finished with the main mod, I could make two scenarios - one more in-depth for the Mycenaean era, and one for the Classical era...

Reources - I'm by no means encouraging you to copy me, but I've been going through a re-ordering of resources in Alexander at the moment. It involves having race resources (or specific luxuries only available in a small area) combined with 'capital', 'heartland', 'natural harbour' and 'holy place' resources - in various combinations they allow different buildings in different cities. So far example you can only build a shipyard if you have a natural harbour in the city radius, only build a Persian Satrapal palace where you have a capital and persians in the city radius. It seems to work quite well.

Sounds like a sort of similar system to how I have it in Industrial Espionage ... I don't think I have enough resource slots to do a similar system in this scenario, though, if I want to keep at least a similar resource system...

In terms of lag - do you want to post your biq and we can take a look and see what might be slowing things down?

The most recent update'll do for this

 

[Blue Monkey]

This would get rid of a lot of unused terrain, and I could also axe the Maurya ()

You could still include the Indians in the lower right of your map, where you have no other civs. Keep them the same as you want, but call the leader Porus (which is actually a Greek transliteration of his title - Puru or Rai Por, ruler of the Pauravas) rather than Asoka. Porus is the one Alexander actually fought anyway - and in just about that spot.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Right, the map's been cropped, most things (techs, units, improvements/wonders) have been deleted (temporarily), and everything seems to be running fine, in game, as there is no lag! I think the problem was due to the massive amount of resources on the map...

Now, I've decided on some of the victory conditions, and I think the civs, for the time being at least, so here's a rundown on how some things are going to work:

Mycenae - The Trojan War
Civs: Mycenae
The victory condition here sees a welcome return of the original victory condition planned for Mycenae. They must return the Trojan Horse to a victory condition - either at Troy or Jerusalem, although since they are in a locked war against Troy, they will naturally be pushed into taking it there. The Mycenaeans will suffer the most out of any Greek states during the Doric invasion - a resource will spawn in Mycenae which will make everyone want to attack the civ (thanks for the ideas, everyone ). The tech tree for Eras 2-4 for Mycenae will be the Peloponnesian League tech tree, although the particular tech which allows the building of the League (and thus the League victory) will be hidden from Mycenae.

Troy - The Trojan War
Civs: Phrygia (Troy)
Troy also goes back to the original VC which they had at from the onset of development. For Troy, you win the game by simply keeping a garrison inside its city. Simple enough. However, the locked alliance against Mycenae will undoubtedly come back to haunt you at various times. You could speed up the victory process by capturing the Trojan Horse - although as the player, that will almost undoubtedly mean having to take the Peloponnesian possessions away from Mycenae to find where they've hidden it! In eras 2-4, Troy will be able to research the Raiding tech tree, with its own Phrygian flavour.

The Peloponnesian League
Civs: Sparta, Corinth, Thebes (with Mycenae also able to research most techs)
These guys will work pretty much as they did before, where you have to research the majority of the tech tree, build the wonder, and hope for the best. Some good units will be available for the Peloponnesian civs, too.

Athens
Again, Athens will work as pretty much normal, except their first era will be tied in to most of the other Greek states' trees, too. From era 2 onwards, they have to work pretty much on their own in their tech tree, but they'll be able to build some powerful culture-producing wonders in their capital, which should catapult them towards a single-city culture victory! They'll also be able to field a powerful navy.

The Quest For The Golden Fleece
Civs: Argos, Thessaly, Phoenicia, Euboea, Ionia, Magna Graecia, The Bosporan Kingdom, Lydia, Iberia
By far the biggest VC in the game! Civilizations in this VC will be able to build the only ocean-faring transport, which they'll need to be able to capture the Golden Fleece! They can bring it back to either Troy or Jerusalem, whichever is easiest, really. After the first era, I'm thinking of allowing them a SS victory whereby they can must build up a colony.

The Minoans
Civs: Crete
Victory for Crete can come in two forms. The first, is set during the first era, where they can build some special units who can enslave defeated units, turning them into sacrificial offerings, enough of which can grant them a culture victory! In eras 2-4, they'll have the same SS-possibility as the GF civs above, and they will share a tech tree, too.

Dominating the World - The Armies of Ancient Mesopotamia
Civs: Babylon, Assyria, Hatti, Persia, Kolchis
For these civs, the game will be about building as large an empire possible. Obviously, some things may hamper success. For example, Babylon and Assyria are in a locked alliance. The governments initially will work heavily against expansion. And other such stuff. However, eventually, these civs will be able to expand hard and fast, and these are pretty much the only civilizations capable of utilizing "foreign" resources, allowing for some pretty diverse armies. Babylon may also be able to build many cultural improvements/wonders, to rival Athens' VC, although I'm not 100% decided, yet.

The Arc of Covenant
Civs: Ethiopia
For Ethiopia, victory will come by taking the Arc of Covenant (correct me if I'm thinking of the wrong relic, although I think it's the right one) back to a VPL, aka either Jerusalem or Troy. However, Jerusalem will be strongly advised if you could make it there. Getting there will be the hard part. You'll only be able to get onto the high seas required to get back to either Jerusalem or Troy in the latter part of the game, so throughout most of the game, you'll be stuck in the bottom of the map, playing the waiting game. You'll be able to build some pretty awesome units, though, to pass the time! These will mostly be used against your local rivals, which will be Egypt in Africa and Babylon in Arabia.

Macedonian Conquests
Civs: Macedonia, Epirus
For Macedonia and Epirus, you'll have to wait until late-game, where you will be able to use the most powerful units in the entire game to dominate the world! I'm thinking of maybe "morphing" their tech tree with the P League tree, but like with Mycenae, disallowing their building of the wonder, and therefore excluding them from that victory condition.

Egypt
Civs: Egypt
Egypt will be able to win an empire-wide culture victory, if they play their cards right! However, perils will face them, especially if they want to keep hold of Palestine! They can also win via a VPL victory, as they control Jerusalem, although this will be unlikely as the Mesopotamian civilizations will undoubtedly take the city at one point. One of them major downsides with Egypt is that they won't be able to build many good units in Mesopotamian lands; they'll have to rely on naval imports from Egypt!

Raiding Barbarians
Civs: Scythia, Thrace, Dacia, Etruria, Celts, (Phrygia)
For the "Raiding" civs (apart from Phrygia), you won't really be able to "win" the game as such, but you will be able to have fun harassing the other civs with Hidden Nationality units!

This should just leave India. I don't know what I'm going to do with these guys yet. Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[King Coltrane]

i have a few questions. first, what time period does this go up to now? I see that Persia and Macedon are in there, indicating a 300ish end date, but with epirus there too is it later to allow tarantine empire building if we please? I would recommend starting between 1650 and 1550 BC. This way Mycenae/Hatti will have time to build themselves up to the strength they need to take on the creation of a massive empire (or a herculean feet). It would also give Crete a decent window to expand and trade and everything (before the period when crete was taken by the mycenaeans). and it would fit perfectly with my idea for Egypt/Hyksos (see below). But basically the goal should be: Trojan War around 1250 or so. Superpower Hittites by 1450. Egyptian conquest of Canaan by the same time. conflict (Armageddon) between these 2. sea peoples cause a collapse by 1200. then the old powers take a back seat to the new guys like Assyria, Athens, Sparta, Persia, etc.

second, although i really do like the trojan war stuff, what if mycenae doesnt accomplish this? then what do they do if they cant build the P. league? i would recommend allowing them to win with this condition but make sure that their units are the weakest out of this group in the later eras.

i have a few general ideas too:

i think you should expand crete a little bit. i think they should get unique buildings for resources so if they get a source of "x" they can build a special building. specifically i think what would be cool is if you get a source of lapis lazuli and a source of gold you can build the "inlaid daggers" small wonder which produces a treasure unit which you can sell from your capital (much like workers... well talk more about this later) so you can sell it to other civs and get money or gift it and get diplo boosts. and i think crete should have an SS victory type thing called "Thallasocracy" (dominion of the sea) where they have to settle certain islands with a special resource only they can see, call it "minoan colony" or something, which allows a building of the same name. with like 10 or so of these built, it allows the construction of various "parts" like "merchant shipping", "navy", "trade routes", etc. and then finally when you build them all it allows you to win via spaceship type thing.

I think you should include a Canaan civ. It would be a good space filler and could be interesting if you make it represent the Hyksos too. that way egypt could start fighting the Hyksos (who were from canaan) and retake the Delta and fight their way up through Canaan. It would see Egypt at its height controlling the levant, as in real life, but come into conflict with other powers. also it would allow for some interesting campaigning on the parts of the other powers in the area contesting this land with egypt. but the progression should be "Era 1- Hyksos, Era 2 - Israel/Judah, Era 3/4 Phoenecians". i think it would be cool!

i have TONS of ideas for wonders, small wonders, units, techs, and general historical implementation if you want me to elaborate (at a more reasonable hour)

I would also like to help you with civ placement and map tweaking if we are in fact going for a 1650-1550 start date, as i advised. I am writing my thesis about assyria right now and am pretty well versed in the ancient near east and would like to help make this accurate, interesting, and fun!

Why are assyria and babylon locked? im not closed to the idea but im curious what you are thinking with it? what will it accomplish?

Where are my sea peoples?!

As for india, why not make it a civ-cultural victory player? but give them a mix of buddhist and hindu (ish) buildings. however i would make each type tied to a government so if you were a buddhist monarchy you could only build buddhist shrines, etc. or something like that.

OK! thats enough for tonight. let me know what you think of all that and if you want more!

 

[Virote_Considon]

i have a few questions. first, what time period does this go up to now? I see that Persia and Macedon are in there, indicating a 300ish end date, but with epirus there too is it later to allow tarantine empire building if we please? I would recommend starting between 1650 and 1550 BC. This way Mycenae/Hatti will have time to build themselves up to the strength they need to take on the creation of a massive empire (or a herculean feet). It would also give Crete a decent window to expand and trade and everything (before the period when crete was taken by the mycenaeans). and it would fit perfectly with my idea for Egypt/Hyksos (see below). But basically the goal should be: Trojan War around 1250 or so. Superpower Hittites by 1450. Egyptian conquest of Canaan by the same time. conflict (Armageddon) between these 2. sea peoples cause a collapse by 1200. then the old powers take a back seat to the new guys like Assyria, Athens, Sparta, Persia, etc.

The mod technically now starts at 1750 BC, but the first 3 turns go by quickly (they're 50 years each). The mod goes until the death of Alexander (actually, it may be a year or two after, I can't quite remember), although with Epirus, I'll probably add some later stuff onto the end of their tech tree!

second, although i really do like the trojan war stuff, what if mycenae doesnt accomplish this? then what do they do if they cant build the P. league? i would recommend allowing them to win with this condition but make sure that their units are the weakest out of this group in the later eras.

Right now, if Mycenae can't take Troy, they'll still be able to win via domination/conquest (that is to say, there's nothing in place to stop them winning this way). What I'm doing with them is to actually to tag them on to the techs/improvements/units of the Peloponnesian League civs. I imagine they'll fill in the role which "Elis" did in previous versions

i have a few general ideas too:

i think you should expand crete a little bit. i think they should get unique buildings for resources so if they get a source of "x" they can build a special building. specifically i think what would be cool is if you get a source of lapis lazuli and a source of gold you can build the "inlaid daggers" small wonder which produces a treasure unit which you can sell from your capital (much like workers... well talk more about this later) so you can sell it to other civs and get money or gift it and get diplo boosts. and i think crete should have an SS victory type thing called "Thallasocracy" (dominion of the sea) where they have to settle certain islands with a special resource only they can see, call it "minoan colony" or something, which allows a building of the same name. with like 10 or so of these built, it allows the construction of various "parts" like "merchant shipping", "navy", "trade routes", etc. and then finally when you build them all it allows you to win via spaceship type thing.

In the first era, Crete are going to have plenty of their own improvements/wonders.

I think I'm going to have the SS victory available to many civs, not just to Crete, but available to Crete in later eras. Crete already have the VC which enables them to sacrifice mass amounts of units (to the minotaur! ) for culture.

I don't think the treasure unit idea will work, as there can only be one "captured unit", and this is the only unit which can be traded, unfortunately...

I think you should include a Canaan civ. It would be a good space filler and could be interesting if you make it represent the Hyksos too. that way egypt could start fighting the Hyksos (who were from canaan) and retake the Delta and fight their way up through Canaan. It would see Egypt at its height controlling the levant, as in real life, but come into conflict with other powers. also it would allow for some interesting campaigning on the parts of the other powers in the area contesting this land with egypt. but the progression should be "Era 1- Hyksos, Era 2 - Israel/Judah, Era 3/4 Phoenecians". i think it would be cool!

Could the already existing Phoenician civ function as a Canaanite civ?

i have TONS of ideas for wonders, small wonders, units, techs, and general historical implementation if you want me to elaborate (at a more reasonable hour)

I'll be happy to hear any ideas you come up with!

I would also like to help you with civ placement and map tweaking if we are in fact going for a 1650-1550 start date, as i advised. I am writing my thesis about assyria right now and am pretty well versed in the ancient near east and would like to help make this accurate, interesting, and fun!

Again, any help you offer will be greatly appreciated!

Why are assyria and babylon locked? im not closed to the idea but im curious what you are thinking with it? what will it accomplish?

Firstly, this should serve to hinder Assyria's early expansion, so that the other superpowers of this period (Hatti, mostly) can take their rightful place. This doesn't affect Babylon so much, as they're already pretty built up. Secondly, from what I've read, it seams that it would have been impossible for these two states to peacefully coexist together. Also, Babylon seemed to put up the most resistance to the Assyrians, so it seemed kinda fitting that they should be against them.

Where are my sea peoples?!

Too busy raiding and pillaging to be included in the scenario!

Seriously, though, I think I will go ahead and use ancient Iberia and Etruria as the Sea Peoples. The idea is that I'll place a couple of resources down in the near east, which allow super-strong units (which will also require another non-existent resource). Then, I'll allow some good naval and hidden nationality units who will naturally want to go take the lands with these resources (although this will probably require a ton of tweaking to get to work right!). When I want the raids to stop, I'll make all the units upgrade into "normal" units (the super-strong dummy units included!) Thus, the two civs won't have any reason to venture forth into those lands anymore.

As for india, why not make it a civ-cultural victory player? but give them a mix of buddhist and hindu (ish) buildings. however i would make each type tied to a government so if you were a buddhist monarchy you could only build buddhist shrines, etc. or something like that.

Sounds like a good idea to me

OK! thats enough for tonight. let me know what you think of all that and if you want more!

Thanks for the advice (and of course I'd want more! )

 

[Blue Monkey]

This should just leave India. I don't know what I'm going to do with these guys yet. Anyone have any suggestions?

Special Victory (for India) Half-Baked Ideas:

• There's a legend that Dionysus introduced wine/grapes to India & also that Hercules was there. "Capture the Flag"?
• Megasthenes, et al, describe the Gangaridae (sp?) as having an incomparable city of gold high in the mountains as their capital. VP possibilities?
• There's the Indian tradition of the Chakravartin (world conqueror) achieving his goal through the "White Horse Sacrifice". Basically his army follow a wandering sacred horse around for a year & wherever it goes the king either submits or is conquered. "Election" style victory?
• There are the "gymnosophists" that visited Alexandria as part of the cultural trade between the Mediterranean & the Ganges. Perhaps the Indians need special resources only available in the key cities of the West to build a "space race" type victory. I could suggest "parts" for such a victory if you want to pursue this one.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Some interesting ideas there, thanks BM!...

Now I'm trying to think things over.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Whilst I think things out, I'm going to put another of my ideas into fruition.

Basically, I'm being left with a huge chunk of Northern Europe with nothing going on there for the majority of the game (even if you try to utilize it, you'd probably be wasting your time). I also want to increase the mythological aspect of the game somewhat (this project was in its very early infancy going to be a mostly mythological endeavor), so, I've formulated a plan.

Meet the initial workings of the underworld, the entrance to which is at the Danube(!):

Basically, the underworld is going to be made entirely out of Mountains (impassable to ALL) and Tundra (impassable to all but Heroes, some later workers, and a select few mythological units). The idea is that you'll be able to use the heroes you win via battle (and the one or two who'll be dotted around the map), and take them on quests to gain more heroes (and perhaps some Gods and the such, too)! Of course, the inside of the Underworld will be swarming with barbaric monsters, the undead, etc., in other words, the usual. So of course, you'll have to split off a large portion of the heroes, monsters and other such units from your main battle forces to be able to wade through there!

Maybe at the end of hell, there can be a flag unit, which can be captured by all factions, and taken to a VPL. Of course, you'd have to face many challenges to be able to do this!


Anyone got any further ideas that they'll feel will be fun to add in here?

 

[Deth McBones]

Are all your LM terrain slots used? Could you fit in that Underworld terrain for the tundra?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Are all your LM terrain slots used? Could you fit in that Underworld terrain for the tundra?

I could, since I have free slots for LM Grassland and LM Plains, but then non-heroes would be able to traverse through the underworld.

Also, in the DL page for Ares Terrain 2, he says he doesn't want anyone to edit any of the files at this point, and I assume that means LM terrain, too.

EDIT: On further inspection, I am in fact using all LM terrain aside from Forests. I forgot that LM hills and mountains used LM grassland tiles, and I'm using LM Plains as steppes...

 

[Deth McBones]

Okay, well it was just a thought.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Alright, Mycenae's era 1 has its techs and units placed. I've been having a little fun with it, and can safely say that the loading times are short!

As you can see, the victory condition is working! Of course, you won't really be able to take Troy this easily, once Troy gets their units and wonders added!

 

[Madeira]

The underworld idea seems very interesting and fun!

 

[King Coltrane]

i wish i had more time to comment on this right now, but it all looks great and sounds interesting V_C! keep us posted! and ill give more helpful feedback pretty soon!