Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Noyyau]

I'm with Sogroon on this, I think we don't really need the Mill building, and the Quern can just upgrade to the Bakery. Maybe rename the Bakery to Grain Mill or something like that?

Also I think that Levees and Irrigation Canals should go back to give +1 yield hammers: or respectively) to each river plot, instead of a small flat bonus.

 

[Vokarya]

Afforess made the decision to go to flat +food on Irrigation Canals, not me. I'm not going to countermand it. Levee is still +1 hammer from River tiles. I think Levee comes along late enough that it's not overwhelming, but Irrigation Canals was really good for where it showed up, and so I don't mind Irrigation Canals being flat.

I like Mill too much to get rid of it. I think it's a building basic enough to feel missing if we didn't have it, Mill is the natural upgrade of Quern, and anything with a name that short gets major pluses from me. What if instead of +2 food, it was +1 food for each grain resource (Corn/Rice/Wheat)? Since you have to have at least one of these resources to build either Quern or Mill, you would never lose anything by upgrading Quern to Mill, but you would have to upgrade once Quern goes obsolete.

I also think Bakery needs to be toned down more. It's got pretty big bonuses for the Classical Era: +2 food, a potential +7 commerce from various fruit resources, and 1 Merchant slot. I think we could use some smaller buildings; I think it would be good to lower all bonuses to +1 (+1 food, +1 commerce per fruit) and lower the cost from 120 to 80.

 

[dbkblk]

I also think Bakery needs to be toned down more. It's got pretty big bonuses for the Classical Era: +2 food, a potential +7 commerce from various fruit resources, and 1 Merchant slot. I think we could use some smaller buildings; I think it would be good to lower all bonuses to +1 (+1 food, +1 commerce per fruit) and lower the cost from 120 to 80.

I also think Bakery is too expensive relative to the other building. It may be the good solution to lower the bonuses.

 

[<Nexus>]

Okay, if you want to add Mill anyway, than make it at least a requirement for the Bakery.

 

[Afforess]

I'm with Sogroon on this, I think we don't really need the Mill building, and the Quern can just upgrade to the Bakery. Maybe rename the Bakery to Grain Mill or something like that?

Also I think that Levees and Irrigation Canals should go back to give +1 yield hammers: or respectively) to each river plot, instead of a small flat bonus.

Irrigation Canals +1 per river tile often lead to extreme gains, anywhere from 6-18 / turn in well-placed cities. This heavily distorts city growth, allows lots of extra specialists, and heavily slants the game in the favor of any place lucky enough to have extra river tiles.

 

[Noyyau]

Fair enough.
I do not think it is overpowered to have river cities be bigger, so I'll just make my local xml reflect that. Good thing this is easy to tinker with.

 

[Rezca]

Irrigation Canals +1 per river tile often lead to extreme gains, anywhere from 6-18 / turn in well-placed cities. This heavily distorts city growth, allows lots of extra specialists, and heavily slants the game in the favor of any place lucky enough to have extra river tiles.

Would it be at all possible to have a fractional bonus added on to it?
Like, some health buildings add +0.15 (example) Health per citizen, perhaps the irrigation canals and similar could have a flat bonus just for being there, and then a fractional bonus per river tile? So cities that have more than one river tile in their radius can still benefit from this situation, but not so much as they'd be overgrowing from doing so?

 

[Afforess]

Would it be at all possible to have a fractional bonus added on to it?
Like, some health buildings add +0.15 (example) Health per citizen, perhaps the irrigation canals and similar could have a flat bonus just for being there, and then a fractional bonus per river tile? So cities that have more than one river tile in their radius can still benefit from this situation, but not so much as they'd be overgrowing from doing so?

Yields received from tiles can not be fractional (but buildings can generate fractional yields). The yield a tile produces is always a whole number and changing that would be a fairly complex change that risks adding a lot of new issues.

Another option would be to have a cap to the maximum extra yield an irrigation canal could produce. Have it give +1 per tile, but limit the maximum effect to 1 + pop / 3. So a size 9 city can get +4 , and a size 21 city would get +8 . The downside to this is that this mechanic favors larger cities over smaller ones, which may contribute to runaway powerful civilizations. So we might also consider making the maximum be: num river tiles - pop / 3. Then a size 9 city with 6 river tiles would get +4 and a size 21 city with the same river tiles would get + 0 . That mechanic would favor weaker, smaller cities and discourage growth.

Just ideas, I am not saying I am going to change it.

 

[Vokarya]

I don't think Irrigation Canals needs changing either. I think the default bonuses to River tiles, with +1 commerce in general and +1 food from Irrigation, is enough for the early game.

On that note, what do you think of the River Authority? It has the same situation going as the Irrigation Canals, only commerce rather than food, but it's still +1 commerce for a lot of tiles early in the game. I think cutting this out entirely would slow down the early game just a touch.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Or perhaps it's requirements could be changed to City Hall so that it's delayed further in time?

 

[Vokarya]

Or perhaps it's requirements could be changed to City Hall so that it's delayed further in time?

That's not far enough. City Council requires City Planning, which is another Classical tech; remember River Authority requires Currency and a hidden requirement of whatever tech is required for your Courthouse or equivalent (Aztec and Sumer get early Courthouses through their UB's). If we really want to keep the river tile bonus, I would sooner give the bonus to Toll House/Customs House, which serves the same purpose without having to have a separate building for it. But I'm still thinking the bonus to all River tiles is too powerful.

 

[<Nexus>]

How about changing the +1 anything / river tile mechanism to have a minimum and maximum range? Maybe 3 to 7. So it gives you 3 even if you have only one river tile; but also it won't give you more than 7 even if you have 21 river tiles. Would be more balanced, IMO.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

It would still unfairly favour the larger cities, the more population you have the more tiles that are worked and the bonuses incurred would increase.

 

[Rezca]

Might suggest a civic building for Barter, so those who prefer skipping Slavery as a civic in favor of Coinage aren't held back as roughly by the -33% penalties of Barter.

Bartering Post? Something to slightly relieve the negatives of the civic without making it too 'good' of a civic? Might tie in with the Hunting Module somehow perhaps...


Just a thought that I had earlier

 

[<Nexus>]

Might suggest a civic building for Barter, so those who prefer skipping Slavery as a civic in favor of Coinage aren't held back as roughly by the -33% penalties of Barter.

Bartering Post? Something to slightly relieve the negatives of the civic without making it too 'good' of a civic? Might tie in with the Hunting Module somehow perhaps...


Just a thought that I had earlier

Hmm... Maybe
A little bonus and stored after growth?

 

[Afforess]

Might suggest a civic building for Barter, so those who prefer skipping Slavery as a civic in favor of Coinage aren't held back as roughly by the -33% penalties of Barter.

Bartering Post? Something to slightly relieve the negatives of the civic without making it too 'good' of a civic? Might tie in with the Hunting Module somehow perhaps...


Just a thought that I had earlier

Why do you skip slavery?

 

[Rezca]

Why do you skip slavery?

I don't - I beeline for it in fact

However I remember a few people saying in the past they refused to touch Slavery as a civic no matter how bad the penalties on Barter were, and would prefer Slavery just being removed entirely. So, keeping these comments in mind I thought about some building (Maybe unlocked at Trade?) that would ease Barter's limitations to making it a somewhat acceptable alternative until Coinage is unlocked.

It wouldn't be as good as anything Coinage would offer, it wouldn't be better than Slavery, but neither would it be as painful as waiting for Currency at -33% Research and Income.

 

[<Nexus>]

I just noticed that the Potato, Wheat, Rice and Corn resources seem "unbalanced" compared to each other. What I mean:

• Artesian Well: +1 with Rice
• Mill: +1 with Wheat or Corn or Rice
• Bakery: requires Wheat or Corn

But nothing (early) for Potato. This makes Rice the most important resource of the list and Potato the least important one.
I don't know about any building that could be tied to Potato. My only idea of increasing its value is to make it give +2 with farm while the others only have +1.

Just an idea, maybe it doesn't matter at all

 

[dbkblk]

Maybe make an unique building for Belgium (in MCP) to transform potatoes into french fries

 

[<Nexus>]

Maybe make an unique building for Belgium (in MCP) to transform potatoes into french fries

You mean Fritkot (Belgian UB for Grocery)?