Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

I think I have an idea for what to do with Oil Refinery and Steel Mill. I've never been particularly comfortable with these two buildings as regular buildings, as it's possible for them to turn 1 Iron or Oil resource into a gigantic number of Steel or Oil Products resources. Most of the other buildings that provide resources are National Wonders, but I don't think that's quite the way to go here.

What if instead, Oil Refinery could only be built in a city that had Oil in its city radius, and Steel Mill could only be built in a city with Iron in its city radius? I think that would restrict the two buildings without crippling them completely. Also keep in mind that Ironworks and Biofuel Refinery would be exempt from these restrictions.

Well... I love the "in city vicinity" thing in cases, when the resource cannot be traveled (Stoneworker's Hut in ancient era, or the idea of geothermal energy plant), but not this time.
I am not all against it, just don't think that it is the very best solution.
I would prefer a "cathedral-like" mechanism, when you can build 1 Oil Refinery / Steel Mill only if X of other building is already built. Just what should be that building?? :rolleyes:
 
Well... I love the "in city vicinity" thing in cases, when the resource cannot be traveled (Stoneworker's Hut in ancient era, or the idea of geothermal energy plant), but not this time.
I am not all against it, just don't think that it is the very best solution.
I would prefer a "cathedral-like" mechanism, when you can build 1 Oil Refinery / Steel Mill only if X of other building is already built. Just what should be that building?? :rolleyes:

I think this time I agree with Sogroon, provided we find a suitable prerequisite building. Limiting it to just a city with vicinity requirement looks too narrow to me. But I prefer to hear other opinions too before we decide such a thing. It looks pretty important to me.
 
I would disagree on the 1 resource, 1 city model. Resources are by their very nature highly portable, and refined in other places, mostly far from place of source.

The Cathederal model, is much better, 1 resource shouldn't spawn a Civ wide industry of what ever, but a tiered system of support buildings would be of much better structure.

Going down the path of limited production of units, ie 5 Oil per oil well resource?? No, but limit the amout of refineries, like a national wonder, seems a much more realistic idea.
 
Well... I love the "in city vicinity" thing in cases, when the resource cannot be traveled (Stoneworker's Hut in ancient era, or the idea of geothermal energy plant), but not this time.
I am not all against it, just don't think that it is the very best solution.
I would prefer a "cathedral-like" mechanism, when you can build 1 Oil Refinery / Steel Mill only if X of other building is already built. Just what should be that building?? :rolleyes:

New building with requisite "in city vicinity: Oil": Extraction Facility
Refinery: to be built requires one Extraction Facility built somewhere in the empire (and river access and whatever else it does normally)

Or instead of an extra building, make each Refinery consume one Oil resource and give one Oil Products to build units with.
 
I expect that it'll be very difficult to achieve some kind of fix to the resources issue which Rezca brought up in Civ IV without significant changes, and it's been indicated to me that RoM AND wants to retain the basic Civ IV concepts.

The resource depletion concept appealed to me initially, but I found it very frustrating when all of a sudden with no warning all six of my iron mines 'expired' one turn. Not being able to manage stock levels, nor even <i>monitor</i> them in some way, makes the whole depletion thing feel like a pure game of luck.

Instead of trying to manage resources to limit unit-building, I'd love to see more building requirements applied to units. E.g. building a big modern ship should require a big modern naval construction yard, and building a tank would require steel, a factory and/or industrial park and/or manufacturing whatever, and also power. Then you really would have to build up an industrial base to use modern units (or import them). As was pointed out recently here somewhere (in relation to tech' diffusion), DRCongo does have modern weapons - but I bet they don't build many of them themselves.

Is it possible for units to require the presence of one building somewhere in the Civ? I'm thinking the 3D studio building could enable certain late-era units, which would be a more interesting perk for that building (and tech') than just an economic boost.

Back to the topic of some of the preceding posts... Is it even possible for a building to consume ONE unit of a resource (as noyyau suggested above)? I'd like to see the factory, perhaps, consume one unit of steel, the manufacturing plant consume one aluminium (say), and so forth. That way you'd actually have a reason to build multiple steel mills / oil refineries, etc..., or import things you can't make yourself. This would, to me, make the game feel much more as though I was actually developing an inter-connected industrial empire (not to say that the same concepts couldn't work pre-industrial-era!).

I'm with Ipex on the "1 resource, 1 city" model: i.e. against it. Resources <i>were</i> often traded long distances. Didn't Britain get it's name because it was a source of tin throughout Europe? But I also don't like the Cathedral mechanic, because it's hard to know how many of something you can build until you actually reach the (weird and arbitrary) limit. If the resource-consumption I talked about in the previous paragraph works, neither of these two limiting mechanism would probably be needed.

Just ideas... Love this mod.

A.
 
I expect that it'll be very difficult to achieve some kind of fix to the resources issue which Rezca brought up in Civ IV without significant changes, and it's been indicated to me that RoM AND wants to retain the basic Civ IV concepts.

The resource depletion concept appealed to me initially, but I found it very frustrating when all of a sudden with no warning all six of my iron mines 'expired' one turn. Not being able to manage stock levels, nor even <i>monitor</i> them in some way, makes the whole depletion thing feel like a pure game of luck.

Instead of trying to manage resources to limit unit-building, I'd love to see more building requirements applied to units. E.g. building a big modern ship should require a big modern naval construction yard, and building a tank would require steel, a factory and/or industrial park and/or manufacturing whatever, and also power. Then you really would have to build up an industrial base to use modern units (or import them). As was pointed out recently here somewhere (in relation to tech' diffusion), DRCongo does have modern weapons - but I bet they don't build many of them themselves.

Is it possible for units to require the presence of one building somewhere in the Civ? I'm thinking the 3D studio building could enable certain late-era units, which would be a more interesting perk for that building (and tech') than just an economic boost.

Back to the topic of some of the preceding posts... Is it even possible for a building to consume ONE unit of a resource (as noyyau suggested above)? I'd like to see the factory, perhaps, consume one unit of steel, the manufacturing plant consume one aluminium (say), and so forth. That way you'd actually have a reason to build multiple steel mills / oil refineries, etc..., or import things you can't make yourself. This would, to me, make the game feel much more as though I was actually developing an inter-connected industrial empire (not to say that the same concepts couldn't work pre-industrial-era!).

I'm with Ipex on the "1 resource, 1 city" model: i.e. against it. Resources <i>were</i> often traded long distances. Didn't Britain get it's name because it was a source of tin throughout Europe? But I also don't like the Cathedral mechanic, because it's hard to know how many of something you can build until you actually reach the (weird and arbitrary) limit. If the resource-consumption I talked about in the previous paragraph works, neither of these two limiting mechanism would probably be needed.

Just ideas... Love this mod.

A.

I seem to remember resource depletion being in one of the early civ versions (?) If not then I really like the concepts.:)
 
I have the following idea about Steel mill and Oil refinery:

Steel mill is simple: Make it require 4 or 5 Foundries. Foundry does not obsolate or get replaced.
Oil refinery needs a little tricky solution: Make it require 4 or 5 Laboratories. The "problem" is that Lab gets replaced by Research Lab. So let's introduce a new building:
Fuel Refinery
-requires Modern Physics (just like Res.Labs)
-requires 4 or 5 Research Laboratories
-replaces Oil Refinery keeping its bonuses and gets +10% :gold:
An additional advantage Fuel ref. over the Oil ref. could be to require less buildings (if 1Oil ref / 5Lab, than 1Fuel ref / 4Res.Lab)

What do you think? Would this work?
 
I have the following idea about Steel mill and Oil refinery:

Steel mill is simple: Make it require 4 or 5 Foundries. Foundry does not obsolate or get replaced.
Oil refinery needs a little tricky solution: Make it require 4 or 5 Laboratories. The "problem" is that Lab gets replaced by Research Lab. So let's introduce a new building:
Fuel Refinery
-requires Modern Physics (just like Res.Labs)
-requires 4 or 5 Research Laboratories
-replaces Oil Refinery keeping its bonuses and gets +10% :gold:
An additional advantage Fuel ref. over the Oil ref. could be to require less buildings (if 1Oil ref / 5Lab, than 1Fuel ref / 4Res.Lab)

What do you think? Would this work?

I think the Fuel Refinery is a bit too complicated. The Foundry/Steel Mill thing could work. It does have the problem with the Cathedral mechanic, though. The Cathedral mechanic is confusing because it scales by map size and it's very hard to see unless you are either looking in the Civilopedia in-game or you turn off "Hide Nonconstructible Buildings" in the city screen.
 
I managed a while ago to link together Elder Council and School of Scribes, and I created Printer with the idea that it would be a precursor to the Press Agency. It was suggested to, and I want to, link School of Scribes with Printer. I think I figured out how to do that; there was a stumbling block in terms of how much upgrading to allow, but I think adjusting the percentage boosts will fix that.

Here's what we will need to do:
  • School of Scribes decreases to +10% science (originally +15%). This will slow down Ancient Era science a bit, although I neglect School of Scribes quite a bit and often Plato's Academy does not show up until the Medieval Era.
  • School of Scribes goes obsolete at Scientific Method. This gives you time to upgrade instead of losing the School of Scribes immediately at Printing Press.
  • Scriptorum goes obsolete at Scientific Method. Again, giving you time to upgrade.
  • Printer increases to +15% science, +10% culture, +10% espionage. This gives you a bigger bonus for building it.
  • Printer replaces School of Scribes and Scriptorum (you will lose 1 Priest and 1 Scientist slot, but I don't think there is ever a problem getting Priest specialists, and there are several Scientist slots coming up in the Renaissance Era)
  • Publishing House increases to +20% science. This is to not punish players for upgrading.
  • Press Agency increases to +20% espionage. Same thing as Publishing House.

Does this sound workable? I love being able to make a building chain this long.
 
I think the Fuel Refinery is a bit too complicated. The Foundry/Steel Mill thing could work. It does have the problem with the Cathedral mechanic, though. The Cathedral mechanic is confusing because it scales by map size
I think map size scaling is only good in this case. Afterall we do not want too many OilRef. and SteelMill on any mapsize.

and it's very hard to see unless you are either looking in the Civilopedia in-game or you turn off "Hide Nonconstructible Buildings" in the city screen.
Does everyone play with "Hide Nonconstructible Buildings" on? I am definetly not.
So it is either limiting those buildings or turning off "Hide Nonconstructible Buildings" at least for a short period in the game.


I agree with Linking: School of Scribes and Printer
 
I have obsolete buildings and actions hidden, but nothing else.
 
I hide unconstructable buildings and units, and obsolete worker actions, I don't have a particularly big screen so it helps in reducing the number of icon lines in the city screen and for worker actions.
 
V30, garrison has no exp for melee or mounted.

Please add them as they are the main forces used for most of the renaissance era.

Please describe (show) the lines to add to the xml so I can add them to my V30.
 
V30, garrison has no exp for melee or mounted.

Please add them as they are the main forces used for most of the renaissance era.

Please describe (show) the lines to add to the xml so I can add them to my V30.

I think this is deliberate; I haven't added or deleted anything as far as those go. Matchlock and Leadership mark the transition from a melee/archery-based army to a gunpowder-based army. Barracks aren't going obsolete, so you don't have to build Garrisons until you're ready to build gunpowder units, and I think Arquebusiers are better than any melee unit anyway, even under the bonus conditions (Arquebusier is 15 with a first strike, compared to Maceman 15 against melee, Heavy Pikeman 13.5 against mounted, Heavy Swordsman 14.3 attacking a city). I usually stop building melee units as soon as Gunpowder becomes available, get Leadership first so I can get Garrisons, and then switch to Arquebusiers as soon as I can.

As far as mounted units go, Stable/Knight's Stable is also available at the same time. I'm worried about too many small bonuses stacking up and creating too much of a synergy effect (this is one reason why I'm not all that happy with Meeting Hall).

All bonuses to XP are in Civ4BuildingInfos.xml and controlled by <UnitCombatFreeExperiences> to grant bonuses by combat class. Look at Barracks and you should be able to copy the bonuses to Garrison.

This is what Barracks looks like:
Spoiler :
Code:
			<UnitCombatFreeExperiences>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>3</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>3</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>2</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperiences>
and this is Garrison:
Spoiler :
Code:
			<UnitCombatFreeExperiences>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>2</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WHEELED</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>2</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_TRACKED</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>2</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>3</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE</UnitCombatType>
					<iExperience>2</iExperience>
				</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperiences>
 
Thank you for your help. I recently tried a copy / paste in my previous 705 install game xml which failed , so I thought that there must be more than one line to change. Apparently I was careless and copied too many or too few lines that time. I will be more careful this time.

Posting the two xmls like you have allows me (and other players) an opportunity to learn how to do a little "mini modding" for ourselves and could even stimulate some to want to learn more!

UPDATE; Thanks again, I've got it working now after an hour and four errors. (doing just copy/paste!) HaHa. But now I have a better understanding of what to do.
 
I'm still on the lookout for buildings that I think need some assistance. One of the buildings that I would like to work with is the Potter's Hut. There are so many limitations on this building, and so much else that can be done in the Ancient Era, that this building feels like a serious waste of time to go after. Here are all the limits on the Hut:
  • Requires River Access
  • Requires Copper or Lead
  • +1 unhealth from Lead
  • Goes obsolete VERY quickly at Glass Blowing
I think we should drop both the metal requirement and the +1 unhealth from Lead. Lead already packs +2 unhealth, which is huge for the Ancient Era. I know lead poisoning was a problem for potters, but putting an additional point on top of the 2 inherent unhealth feels like just piling on.

Also, I think we should increase the length of time that the Potter's Hut is available. I originally thought of moving it all the way to Plastics, but that might be too far. I still think it has a place even into the Renaissance, so maybe Assembly Line is a good stopping point for it? There are a few other buildings where I think we really need to expand just how long they last before they go obsolete.
 
Like Potter's Hut, there are a few other buildings where I'd like to see them get a slightly longer lifespan. While I am in favor of buildings doing something other than remain static, either going obsolete or upgrading to another building, I think it has to be balanced against the investment needed to get the building in the first place. This especially matters with National and World Wonders, since you have a bigger investment to make.

There are four particular buildings I have in mind.
  • Candlemaker's Shop: Available with Priesthood and Trade, obsolete with Optics. I like Candlemaker's Shop as an early build for new cities, so I think it should stick around a bit longer. I'd like to have this go obsolete at Electricity, because that's when candlelight really starts to get obsolete.
  • Royal Tournament: Available with Heraldry, obsolete with Cavalry Tactics. Only a handful of units can benefit from this: Heavy Horseman, Rider, Knight, Mailed Knight, War Elephant, and Elephant Bombardier. I would like to move this to obsoleting at Military Tradition so Cuirassier and Lancer can also benefit.
  • Flak Tower: Available with Automatic Weapons and Radio and Flight, obsolete with Supersonic Flight. This is less than an era of existence, which isn't nearly enough for a National Wonder. I think Hypersonic Flight or maybe even Orbital Flight would be better.
  • Magellan's Expedition: Available with Navigation, obsolete with Screw Propeller. Magellan's Expedition has two strikes against it; first, its very short lifespan (again, less than 1 era) and second, it feels almost totally overshadowed by Naval Academy, as they grant the same promotion (Navigation I), have similar cultural bonuses (+4 for Magellan, +3 for Naval Academy), and the Naval Academy grants more XP (+3 vs. +2). I suspect Naval Academy used to be a lot more restricted in the early versions of RoM before it got to where it is now. I think what we should do is make Magellan never go obsolete and change its promotion from Navigation I to Maneuvering I. Maneuvering I is a lot more valuable for Wooden Ships, because Ocean squares have a terrain cost of 2 and Maneuvering I is just about the only way to get -1 terrain cost. Later ships ignore terrain movement costs, so it doesn't matter as much to them, but I find myself universally going for Maneuvering I on wooden ships so that they won't be crippled trying to cross oceans.
 
Those seem like excellent ideas. I'd agree on the Potter's Hut ending at Assembly Line too.
 
Back
Top Bottom