Vokarya's Workshop: Units

Vokarya · Apr 1, 2016

Here are a couple thoughts on Accuracy promotions. First, I think Accuracy promotions should require Siege Warfare tech.

The reason to change this is prior to Siege Warfare and the Catapult, there are two Siege units available: Battering Ram and Ballista. I am responsible for both of these units, and my purpose for them is that they would split the abilities of Siege units. Battering Ram can remove city defenses, while Ballista can deal collateral damage and range strike. Ballista is not supposed to be able to bombard defenses at all. Catapult is the first unit that gets to do everything (city bombard, range strike, and collateral attack).

At the moment, Ballista can bombard if it gets Barrage I and Accuracy I (possible with Archery Range + Mercenaries or Archery Range + other civic + Charismatic trait). This is not what I intended. Restricting Accuracy to Siege Warfare will prevent Accuracy Ballistas unless you save your promotions. At that point, it's easy enough to upgrade Ballistas to Catapults that it doesn't matter.

Second, Ram units cannot get Accuracy promotions. Accuracy requires Barrage I or City Raider I. Rams can't get City Raider because they are defend-only and can't get Barrage because they don't have the collateral damage ability. What if Accuracy required City Raider I or Drill I? It would force you to split your promotions between increased collateral damage and increased city bombardment. Only Siege Ram would really benefit, but I think Siege Ram needs to be able to keep up with Trebuchet in the Medieval Era.

Vokarya · Apr 1, 2016

Something else that I have been thinking about is the civic requirement on the Noble Knights. The idea of the civic requirement is that you need to be running at least one civic that is not the "most advanced" when the Noble Knight comes available, so you are passing up a civic that might be more beneficial. I think the early civics generally encourage switching as soon as possible, and the later civics are the ones that require harder decision-making.

The current choices for Noble Knights are:

Nobility rule civic, which means passing up Senate and Bureaucracy civics
Feudal society civic, which means passing up Proletariat and Bourgeois civics
Vassalage military civic

The last one is the one I am concerned about. For those who get to the end of the Medieval Era, are you generally running Vassalage at that time? Or are you still using any of Conscription, Warrior Caste, or Mercenaries? When I set the requirements, Standing Army was set at Chivalry tech, at the same time Noble Knights came available, so if you wanted something like Bureaucracy/Bourgeois, you would have to stay in Vassalage. I later moved Standing Army to Leadership, so Vassalage is the most advanced military civic available.

If most players are in Vassalage when reaching Chivalry, then it isn't a very good restriction. If this is true, then I think it would be better to cut Vassalage from the choices and limit the Noble Knights to either Nobility or Feudal.

gay_Aleks · Apr 1, 2016

I'm mostly using Mercenaries in REV; while expensive, the exp bonuses plus the stability and the war weariness reduction are worth it. In a normal game, however, I'd switch immediately to Vassalage.

Rezca · Apr 1, 2016

I rarely use Mercenaries, and the few times I have I've regretted it immensely. Warrior Caste I also hardly ever use since the penalties stack with Caste and the alternative is remaining in either Banditry or Tribal to pick one or the other. Generally, I'll either remain in Banditry or Conscription until Vassalage which I often end up still using near the end of the Medieval.

Cutting Vassalage off it I have no problems with though.

Noyyau · Apr 2, 2016

Rezca said:
I rarely use Mercenaries, and the few times I have I've regretted it immensely. Warrior Caste I also hardly ever use since the penalties stack with Caste and the alternative is remaining in either Banditry or Tribal to pick one or the other. Generally, I'll either remain in Banditry or Conscription until Vassalage which I often end up still using near the end of the Medieval.

Cutting Vassalage off it I have no problems with though.

I do usually the same.

nionios · Apr 4, 2016

Fanatic promotion says that unit has defensive disadvantage on flatlands(grassland,plains,desert,etc).Reasonably that means that such promotion has no problem on hills and peaks but I've noticed that when a unit is on hill,the disadvantage remains because the base terrain of a hill is always grassland or plains or desert,etc.OK even if it doesn't sound very strange what about the fact that also a peak is considered by the game as a tile with base (flat) terrain so again appears the flatland handicap of Fanatic promotion which in conlusion doesn't sound very reasonable.
I've also noticed that tracked units don't have any handicap when attacking peaks which is in contrary to what civilopedia describes.

These are my personal notes and I'd like to know if anybody can confirm them.

<Nexus> · Apr 5, 2016

nionios said:
Fanatic promotion says that unit has defensive disadvantage on flatlands(grassland,plains,desert,etc).Reasonably that means that such promotion has no problem on hills and peaks but I've noticed that when a unit is on hill,the disadvantage remains because the base terrain of a hill is always grassland or plains or desert,etc.OK even if it doesn't sound very strange what about the fact that also a peak is considered by the game as a tile with base (flat) terrain so again appears the flatland handicap of Fanatic promotion which in conlusion doesn't sound very reasonable.
I've also noticed that tracked units don't have any handicap when attacking peaks which is in contrary to what civilopedia describes.

These are my personal notes and I'd like to know if anybody can confirm them.

I guess that the goal with Fanatic was to give attack bonus and defense penalty, but technically it could be done by including terrains, since there is no single xml tag for for attack/defense modifiers. I think this is the reason.

nionios · Apr 5, 2016

Zeta Nexus said:
I guess that the goal with Fanatic was to give attack bonus and defense penalty, but technically it could be done by including terrains, since there is no single xml tag for for attack/defense modifiers. I think this is the reason.

I could accept that Fanatic is an "opposite" promotion to Fieldsman which means that the former is suitable for defense on hills and peaks but not for flatlands while the latter is good only for flat terrain.Nevertheless I feel this isn't the case because the combat modifier calculations count hill as flatland due to base terrain.
What about peaks?They shouldn't have base terrain.

<Nexus> · Apr 5, 2016

nionios said:
I could accept that Fanatic is an "opposite" promotion to Fieldsman which means that the former is suitable for defense on hills and peaks but not for flatlands while the latter is good only for flat terrain.Nevertheless I feel this isn't the case because the combat modifier calculations count hill as flatland due to base terrain.
What about peaks?They shouldn't have base terrain.

???
ALL terrain levels (flat, hill, peak) have base terrain, you just don't clearly see it on peaks since it has its own graphics. (There are some graphical mods that make it more visible on peaks)
I think that the goal of Fanatic is to make it an "always attack - never defend" promotion - regardless of terrain.

Samson · Apr 7, 2016

Zeta Nexus said:
???
ALL terrain levels (flat, hill, peak) have base terrain, you just don't clearly see it on peaks since it has its own graphics. (There are some graphical mods that make it more visible on peaks)
I think that the goal of Fanatic is to make it an "always attack - never defend" promotion - regardless of terrain.

I had completely misunderstood about the meanings of these positives and negatives.

So when mounted units say +25% Attack on grassland, plains and desert it is not saying flatland as opposed to hills, peaks and forest it is saying these underlying terrains not marsh, tundra or ice?

<Nexus> · Apr 7, 2016

Here's the xml of Fanatic:

PHP:

		<PromotionInfo>
			<Type>PROMOTION_FANATIC</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_FANATIC</Description>
			<Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
			<LayerAnimationPath>NONE</LayerAnimationPath>
			<PromotionPrereq>NONE</PromotionPrereq>
			<PromotionPrereqOr1>PROMOTION_COMBAT3</PromotionPrereqOr1>
			<PromotionPrereqOr2>NONE</PromotionPrereqOr2>
			<TechPrereq>TECH_FUNDAMENTALISM</TechPrereq>
			<StateReligionPrereq>NONE</StateReligionPrereq>
			<bLeader>0</bLeader>
			<bBlitz>0</bBlitz>
			<bAmphib>0</bAmphib>
			<bRiver>0</bRiver>
			<bEnemyRoute>0</bEnemyRoute>
			<bAlwaysHeal>0</bAlwaysHeal>
			<bHillsDoubleMove>0</bHillsDoubleMove>
			<bImmuneToFirstStrikes>0</bImmuneToFirstStrikes>
			<iVisibilityChange>0</iVisibilityChange>
			<iMovesChange>0</iMovesChange>
			<iMoveDiscountChange>0</iMoveDiscountChange>
			<iAirRangeChange>0</iAirRangeChange>
			<iInterceptChange>0</iInterceptChange>
			<iEvasionChange>0</iEvasionChange>
			<iWithdrawalChange>0</iWithdrawalChange>
			<iCargoChange>0</iCargoChange>
			<iCollateralDamageChange>0</iCollateralDamageChange>
			<iBombardRateChange>0</iBombardRateChange>
			<iFirstStrikesChange>0</iFirstStrikesChange>
			<iChanceFirstStrikesChange>0</iChanceFirstStrikesChange>
			<iEnemyHealChange>0</iEnemyHealChange>
			<iNeutralHealChange>0</iNeutralHealChange>
			<iFriendlyHealChange>0</iFriendlyHealChange>
			<iSameTileHealChange>0</iSameTileHealChange>
			<iAdjacentTileHealChange>0</iAdjacentTileHealChange>
			<iCombatPercent>20</iCombatPercent>
			<iCityAttack>10</iCityAttack>
			<iCityDefense>0</iCityDefense>
			<iHillsAttack>0</iHillsAttack>
			<iHillsDefense>0</iHillsDefense>
			<iKamikazePercent>0</iKamikazePercent>
			<iRevoltProtection>0</iRevoltProtection>
			<iCollateralDamageProtection>0</iCollateralDamageProtection>
			<iPillageChange>0</iPillageChange>
			<iUpgradeDiscount>0</iUpgradeDiscount>
			<iExperiencePercent>0</iExperiencePercent>
			<TerrainAttacks/>
			<TerrainDefenses>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_SNOW</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_MARSH</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_COAST</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
				<TerrainDefense>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_OCEAN</TerrainType>
					<iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
				</TerrainDefense>
			</TerrainDefenses>
			<FeatureAttacks/>
			<FeatureDefenses/>
			<UnitCombatMods/>
			<DomainMods/>
			<TerrainDoubleMoves/>
			<FeatureDoubleMoves/>
			<UnitCombats>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GUN</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HITECH</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WHEELED</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_TRACKED</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_EARLY_FIGHTERS</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_EARLY_BOMBERS</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_JET_FIGHTERS</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_BOMBERS</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_STEALTH</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_DREADNOUGHT</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
			</UnitCombats>
			<HotKey/>
			<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
			<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
			<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
			<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
			<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Fanatic.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/RoM_Promotion_Atlas2.dds,1,5</Button>
		</PromotionInfo>

Speaks for itself... mostly.

nionios · Apr 8, 2016

I think that the problem isn't the exactly the meanings of positives and negatives but how they work in the game.For example, when a mounted unit attacks a forest on grassland it gets +25% for grassland and -25% for forest so the positive neutralize the negative? :confused:

45°38'N-13°47'E · Apr 8, 2016

nionios said:
I think that the problem isn't the exactly the meanings of positives and negatives but how they work in the game.For example, when a mounted unit attacks a forest on grassland it gets +25% for grassland and -25% for forest so the positive neutralize the negative?

I can't check the code but maybe not. It depends for example if features override base terrains.

<Nexus> · Apr 8, 2016

nionios said:
I think that the problem isn't the exactly the meanings of positives and negatives but how they work in the game.For example, when a mounted unit attacks a forest on grassland it gets +25% for grassland and -25% for forest so the positive neutralize the negative?

Or the feature overrides the terrain, ensuring -25% (would make sense imo)?
Dunno. Have to look after it.
But it is confusing I agree :crazyeye:

EDIT: 45 was faster

Samson · Apr 8, 2016

Oh, can I be usefull? I have tested this with a tank, and it appears to get the -50% modifyer whatever the underlying terrain. See the attached image of the atatck odds on grassland forest, they were the same on tundra and marsh forests.

nionios · Apr 9, 2016

IMO it's reasonable for the feature to prevail over the base terrain for combat modifiers.Of course desert,tundra and ice as base terrain should be taken into account also.

nionios · Apr 11, 2016

I've had recently a strange issue:
my early jet was intercepted by an enemy missile(V1 class) :crazyeye:

while attacking an enemy city.Is this intended?I looked into xml and missile has no iInterceptionProbability.

<Nexus> · Apr 12, 2016

@Vokarya
I know you are quite busy with graphics already, but I have a proposal about replacing trans-human era's navy models. The current ship models are just spaceships from Final Frontier mod, but some mods (Conflict on Chiron, Reconstruction iirc) are using Homeworld's awesome ship models (as spaceships of course). Homeworld ships were designed to look like "naval ships in space" so I think they would look much better in the game.
Do you think it makes sense?

gay_Aleks · Apr 12, 2016

Can we use Homeworld graphics without being struck down? Aren't we in enough trouble for using OST from SC4K?

<Nexus> · Apr 12, 2016

Tolni said:
Can we use Homeworld graphics without being struck down? Aren't we in enough trouble for using OST from SC4K?

Do you refer to Simcity4 soundtracks? I recall that Afforess said that he used those because they were declared free to use (don't know the right legal expression, sorry).

I don't know about HW models legality, but they are uploaded here on CFC as well as converted content and some other popular mods are using them too.

Vokarya's Workshop: Units

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Traveler of the Multiverse

from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!

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