Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop

[Anarcomu]

I was thinking about this too, and I agree with your rationale. The great person though feels very similar to the coup quest and whatever one gives you great people points in all cities.

My suggestion would be to make the quest only pickable by militaristic city states and to make the reward 6 auto gifted military units. (with the unique unit rules applying)

Since CS rewards can have a varying amount of yields from quest, I'd suggest something like 3-12 units instead, based on era and possibly increased by bonuses to quest reward.
Definitely like the proposal, even though I like bonus XP as it is. IMO spawning should occur in the capital and benefit from building XP.

 

[Enginseer]

I'd like for Great People Point Rewards to get nerfed. If a city never had any point in them. Don't reward them in that category. Seeing 200 Great Writer Point in a city that can't work Writers....

 

[Zuizgond]

To be consistent, shouldn't galleries be added to Faith of the masses?

 

[Enginseer]

To be consistent, shouldn't galleries be added to Faith of the masses?

no cuz Faith of the Masses would have 2 buildings that are faith-purchaseable at Renaissance Era.
Hmmmmm

	Classical	Medieval	Renaissance	Industrial	Modern
Divine Teachings	Library	University	Public School	-	Research Labs
Faith of the Masses	Amphitheater	-	Opera House	Museums	Broadcast Tower

 

[Captain of a Cannon Canoe]

Here's a nitpick: What about moving the Gatling Gun to Steam Power and the Machine Gun to Replaceable Parts, right next to Rifleman (GW Infantry)? I think it's more in line with the historical timeline and with it being available to counter the rifleman (possibly before the landship is invented). The Maxim was invented in 1884 alongside advancements in smokeless powder, better machining, and other replicable parts stuff. Modern Rifleman doctrine was really developed in response to the modern artillery and machine guns, and the machine gun proper was used in tons of conflicts even before WW1.

 

[pineappledan]

would be so much easier to distribute bonuses on culture buildings if the ones that boost guilds and the ones that have the 2 slot theming bonus were two separate, full lines, and the amphitheater wasn't pulling double-duty on writing.

Womp womp.

 

[rkkn]

Currently, if you don't have any tiles to grow to, you will not gain border growth points.

confirmed on my current game that if you have no tiles to grow to, bgp keeps accumulating and rolling over, and the border growth cost keeps going up. Exactly as though you were still growing. except with no growth and no on-growth yields

 

[azum4roll]

confirmed on my current game that if you have no tiles to grow to, bgp keeps accumulating and rolling over, and the border growth cost keeps going up. Exactly as though you were still growing. except with no growth and no on-growth yields

In this case it's fine to keep giving on-growth yields even with no tiles to grow to.

 

[Captain of a Cannon Canoe]

Hey what about moving the Refrigeration Tech back into the late Modern Era? It's a bit more in line with the history since there were industrial fridges before home fridges. The Tech tree could look as follows:

(Late Industrial)	(Early Modern)	(Late Modern)	(Early Atomic)	(Late Atomic)***
Archaeology	Biology	Plastics
			Penicillin	Electronics
Fertilizer	Electricity	Refrigeration
			Atomic Theory	Computers
Industrialization	Corporation	Radio
			Rocketry	Nuclear Fission
Dynamite	Replaceable Parts	Flight
			Combined Arms	Radar
Military Science	Combustion	Ballistics

***Since we would have two 4 tech spaces in a row, perhaps we can add in a brand new tech for the era; something super cold warlike. Maybe 'Military Intelligence' to coincide with the recent Espionage updates, the tech including Police Station, Special Forces, and National Intelligence Agency, and other spy stuff.

 

[Stalker0]

Hey what about moving the Refrigeration Tech back into the late Modern Era? It's a bit more in line with the history since there were industrial fridges before home fridges. The Tech tree could look as follows:

(Late Industrial)	(Early Modern)	(Late Modern)	(Early Atomic)	(Late Atomic)***
Archaeology	Biology	Plastics
			Penicillin	Electronics
Fertilizer	Electricity	Refrigeration
			Atomic Theory	Computers
Industrialization	Corporation	Radio
			Rocketry	Nuclear Fission
Dynamite	Replaceable Parts	Flight
			Combined Arms	Radar
Military Science	Combustion	Ballistics

***Since we would have two 4 tech spaces in a row, perhaps we can add in a brand new tech for the era; something super cold warlike. Maybe 'Military Intelligence' to coincide with the recent Espionage updates, the tech including Police Station, Special Forces, and National Intelligence Agency, and other spy stuff.

So if you did that without adding a new tech (and I personally don't think we need more techs). The prereqs (in parenthesis) would look like this, with bold for the changed ones). This assumes the standard prereq structure we have used elsewhere for a 5 tech moving into a 5 tech area.

Plastics (Biology, Electricity)
Refrigeration (Biology, Electricity, Corporation)
Radio (Elec, Corporation, Replaceable Parts)
Flight (Corporation, Replaceable Parts, Combustion)
Ballistics (Replacable Parts, Combustion)

As you need combustion for flight to make most of its unlocks work, that's not that big a change. Likely the biggest change here is radio.


The other option is to go a complete 180 and just remove refrigeration (which I personally consider a pretty weak tech right now). You give the oil platform and town +3 to Plastics, the sea range and fishing bonus to peniccilin (which is a bit of a weak tech itself), and then those prereqs would look like:

Penicillin (Plastics, Radio)
Computers (pennicilin instead of refrig)
Electronics (atomic theory instead of refrig)

 

[Captain of a Cannon Canoe]

So if you did that without adding a new tech (and I personally don't think we need more techs). The prereqs (in parenthesis) would look like this, with bold for the changed ones). This assumes the standard prereq structure we have used elsewhere for a 5 tech moving into a 5 tech area.

Plastics (Biology, Electricity)
Refrigeration (Biology, Electricity, Corporation)
Radio (Elec, Corporation, Replaceable Parts)
Flight (Corporation, Replaceable Parts, Combustion)
Ballistics (Replacable Parts, Combustion)

As you need combustion for flight to make most of its unlocks work, that's not that big a change. Likely the biggest change here is radio.


The other option is to go a complete 180 and just remove refrigeration (which I personally consider a pretty weak tech right now). You give the oil platform and town +3 to Plastics, the sea range and fishing bonus to peniccilin (which is a bit of a weak tech itself), and then those prereqs would look like:

Penicillin (Plastics, Radio)
Computers (pennicilin instead of refrig)
Electronics (atomic theory instead of refrig)

Yeah that would be correct, I mulled over a ton last night because what stood out to me was that (timeline-wise) refrigeration was a bit too late, while flight did not have combustion as a prerequisite (not sure the feasibility of steam powered aircraft?). So I tried flipping the techs around a while to see if there was a better arrangement more in line with the path of innovation and our VP tech tree methods; other than early plastics requiring refined oil-based chemicals, this new arrangement makes more sense. Speaking generally:

'Refrigeration' (and food safety regulations by extension) required knowledge of microbes and study of the foods, electricity for the practical power of the fridges, and corporations that would handle the massive logistical operations of food transportation and preservation through industrial refrigeration (as with the American meat industry and fruit importation).

Radio needed mass-produced, precise electrical components to get the early radio in households, with electrical power and broadcasting corporations.

'Flight' required reliable engines which could only be manufactured by late 19th century motor corporations, made with precise replaceable parts from the fabrication techniques of more-developed industry, and of course the internal combustion engine.

A lot got developed in the modern era, and historically speaking, refrigeration was an extremely important technology! We take for granted how long we can keep foods fresh with refrigeration and freezing, an ability which massively changed the scope of imperialism and capitalism at the time. I'd say it's worthy to keep with a sizable buff---and now that I think about it, that extra spy tech would be kind of cool with these new espionage overhauls...

 

[Stalker0]

A lot got developed in the modern era, and historically speaking, refrigeration was an extremely important technology! We take for granted how long we can keep foods fresh with refrigeration and freezing, an ability which massively changed the scope of imperialism and capitalism at the time. I'd say it's worthy to keep with a sizable buff---and now that I think about it, that extra spy tech would be kind of cool with these new espionage overhauls...

the problem with reliance on history is.... I can make that case for a score of techs. There are so many inventions that "changed the game" across the world but are underrepresented in civ 5.

Or heck you probably could combine penicillin and refrigeration into some kind of "food preservation" tech, as obviously anti-biotics were a big win for both us and the food supply.

So when I consider techs I'm always asking do I "want" to get this tech, and if I don't, is that tech really needed? as the quote goes, "a designer knows they have achieved perfection, not when they have anything left to add....but when they have nothing left to take away."

 

[Captain of a Cannon Canoe]

Indeed indeed, I have been thinking through tech tweaks in terms of the history first and usually the game flow falls into place, though I much prefer to respect the VP design philosophy when it comes to adding things. But sounds like we got to buff the fridge and make people "want" the tech then, perhaps by extending food bonus plus one to fish, meats, and fruits as well. Interesting too, seems like the stadium and offshore platforms were first built between the 1890s and 1920s, so again much before the atomic era.

The fridge is indispensable! (So too are anti-biotics, imo)

 

[axatin]

draft 2 of the Arabia/Byzantium swap:

Spoiler :

Details:
New Arabian UA: Seal of the Prophets
Can always found a religion.
Can pick any belief even if it was already adopted, and has 1 additional belief slot.
-15% Faith purchase costs.
Can purchase unlocked Great People with Faith in Classical
View attachment 669888
Bazaar(unique market UB)

32​

+1 and for every 4 in the city​

1 Merchant specialist​

1 to Trade Routes to or From this City​

+100% religious pressure from Trade Routes originating in this City​

+1 to Spice and Sugar​

New Byzantine UA: Arete
+1 Culture and +1 Science in your capital whenever a Historic Event occurs.
Whenever a City adopts your Religion for the first time, a Historic Event is triggered.
Cities gain 10% of their City Defense as Faith each turn.
View attachment 669890
Lavra (unique temple UB)

32 (up from 3 faith only)​

+50% Pressure in this city (up from 25%)​

Gain 100% of the city's and output as an instant yield when a new Citizen is born​

1 GW Music slot​

-1 from religious strife​

+1 to Incense, Wine, and Amber​

Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to make completing a trade route not count as a historic event any more? In my opinion it's a terrible design choice that completing a trade route is part of a list of events of historical relevance like building a world wonder or winning a war. (And its also very inconsistent, because the notifications when finishing a trade route don't even say "Historic Event", but "Tourism and Trade". So apparently this wasn't meant to be considered a historic event to begin with, it only uses a similar internal logic.)

 

[Stalker0]

A couple of religious beliefs proposals I'm considering:

God of the Sea - Remove 2 food from coastal cities.
I honestly think God of the Sea is S tier, when I have a sea start it feels crazy how good it is. This is a simple nerf to curb it a bit.

God of War - Reduce barracks prod bonus by 1.
Even with the recent God of War nerf, the pantheon is still teh go to pantheon for all wamongers imo. It gives better faith scaling than almost any other pantheon, but also gives some pretty solid yields as well. I think it can stand another nerf.

God of Wisdom - Increase per city faith from +1 to +2. Remove +2 faith from specialist.
My problem with wisdom is in order to get decent faith out of it, you basically have to go merchant specialists (libraries take too long to get online). so that's weird thematically, and wisdom isn't all that strong at the moment. This change would allow wisdom to generate faith from raw power expansion, and then you can go libraries and get big science should you want to.

Is this actually more a nerf than a buff? The faith certainly kicks in faster, but scales weaker, so its a debate point.

God of Craftsman - Increase Stoneworks Faith and Prod bonus from +1 to +2.
This pantheon is very brittle, you have to have perfect circumstances to use it. Even if you can found with it, is it really worth it? This at least gives it a bit quicker faith scaling and a little bit more production.

God of the Sun - Remove +2 gold from granaries, gain +1 culture. +2 food on farms (down from +3).
Sun is terrible right now, and so I'm giving it the ancestor worship treatment. By giving this a little culture, we can now substitute this for the monument in our build order. Its not as good as the monument, so we lose a little culture, but not a huge amount, and we get a number of other benefits on top. This might help make it competitive.

Goddess of Purity - Increase happiness bonus from +1 to +2
Purity's main issue is that her incredible food bonus inevitably just leads into big unhappiness, and +1 happy is not enough to compensate. +2 happy will both allow you to enjoy your growth, but also rounds this pantheon off a bit once you have to leave the big lake.

Abode of Peace - +100% pressure from missionaries spreading to a city state.
I like the new AP but maintain your religion on CS is actually quite tough, they tend to get bounced around by the AI hitting them up with missionaries. This can help keep them in line, and might actually make those late game "convert CS to my religion" quests usable.

Inquisition - Change spy bonus to "+15 pressure in all cities for a foreign civ per spy you have in that civ's cities" (wording needs work).
One of the problems with inquisitions is, my spies are too tied up. I'm never going to send a spy to a place for "spreading needs", so the spy bonus is just a happenstance, and not something you can combine as part of a core strategy. This version works on a civ wide basis, when you send your spy into a civ, you effect all its cities. This makes the bonus much more useful and possible powerful if you send lots of spies to that civ, providing a cool new alternate way to spread your religion.

Sacred Sites - Add, National Wonders have -25% population requirement, and build +25% faster.
I feel like SS just needs something that isn't strictly tourism related, just something to round it a little bit more. NWs seem special enough to be considered a "sacred site".

 

[dpr3113]

draft 2 of the Arabia/Byzantium swap:

New Byzantine UA: Arete
+1 Culture and +1 Science in your capital whenever a Historic Event occurs.
Whenever a City adopts your Religion for the first time, a Historic Event is triggered.
Cities gain 10% of their City Defense as Faith each turn.

I really like the Arabia/Byzantium swap, but "Arete" feels a bit weird as a name to me - it's an ancient Greek term for excellence/virtue. While Byzantium was a Greek state, was "Arete" a particularly relevant word to them a thousand+ years after Homer?

Suggestion: maybe "Basileuousa" would be a better one? It means "Queen of Cities" in Greek, and was a term used during the Byzantine period to refer to Constantinople. Obviously the Byzantine civ is more than just Constantinople, but it was the primate city of the empire and indeed of all Europe during the Byzantine period. More, the UA seems heavily themed around Constantinople in particular - extra yields in the capital reflects the city's illustrious history, faith for city defense reflects the Theodosian Walls, and historic events (increasing the city's yields) on conversions reflects the reverence Eastern Orthodox Europe had for Constantinople.

 

[pineappledan]

Arete is still a relevant word today. Virtue ethics shapes much of western philosophy. However, you’re correct that it’s not a perfect match for what is invoked by the UA bonuses. I like Basileousa, that could work well.

Yet another reason why the UA bonuses in question work so much better for Byzantium. The capital, and the name of the empire were the same, and never changed. The Center of culture of the Islamic empire, meanwhile, was never Mecca. It was Medina, and then moved to Damascus, and then in Harun Al Rashid’s time it was in Baghdad, with the famous House of Wisdom. The super-tall and capital-centric ability on Arabia kind of ignores how Mecca, outside of its religious significance, was a bit of a political and economic backwater for most of the empire’s history.

 

[ma_kuh]

Inquisition - Change spy bonus to "+15 pressure in all cities for a foreign civ per spy you have in that civ's cities" (wording needs work).
One of the problems with inquisitions is, my spies are too tied up. I'm never going to send a spy to a place for "spreading needs", so the spy bonus is just a happenstance, and not something you can combine as part of a core strategy. This version works on a civ wide basis, when you send your spy into a civ, you effect all its cities. This makes the bonus much more useful and possible powerful if you send lots of spies to that civ, providing a cool new alternate way to spread your religion.

Thoughts on an update to Spain's UA. I don't think it'll make sense to submit for this session, but I was thinking about some of the issues Spain suffers from (can't remember where I saw the discussion, either on the forum or Discord), namely that the flavor and main victory stance of Spain is domination, but there's actually very little direct support for waging a war built into the kit.

How about:

1. Remove the Inquisitor/free conversion piece from Reconquista (the UA).
2. Replace this with combat bonuses:
   • +15% for units within 6 tiles of a city with Spain's dominant religion (doesn't need to be founded by Spain) [maybe limit to owned cities, or smaller radius, for performance]
   • +15% when fighting units from civs with a different dominant religion
   • (Kind of like a free Defender of the Faith/Crusader Spirit that counts for naval, and which rewards converting border towns to your faith, then pushing on/from them)
3. Give the Free Inquisitor of your religion on conquest to the Inquisition belief
   • Natural synergy with Spain's kit: you capture a city, get the inquisitor, convert it to your religion, then have a new 6-tile hub for the "my religion" bonus on the UA.
   • This belief never really feels enticing, at least here it would give domination strategies an alternative to Defender/Crusader.

Thematically this approach tries to simulate the Reconquista not by reclaiming lost cities --a UA that only kicks in if you lose is pretty unviable-- but by "liberating" the peoples of your faith trapped in civs that don't share their beliefs.

I'm planning on submitting a change to Spain that also touches the Inquisition belief. Do you think your change would be an independent proposal group, or do you want to coordinate on adding the change in a single proposal?

 

[azum4roll]

I honestly think God of the Sea is S tier, when I have a sea start it feels crazy how good it is. This is a simple nerf to curb it a bit.

It's just as S tier as Stars and Sky when you start on tundra.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm planning on submitting a change to Spain that also touches the Inquisition belief. Do you think your change would be an independent proposal group, or do you want to coordinate on adding the change in a single proposal?

As you can imagine, I’m pretty invested in Spain’s design. Could you post what you plan to propose?