Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop

[ma_kuh]

You are trading X for X, in a sense, but you are committed to units with such a path. But I suppose that just makes it more laser-focused on pumping an army, and does nothing for making the pantheon less 1-dimensional. Maybe better to save this trait for an second "war" pantheon, so that it can compete as the army-builder pantheon versus the army-rewards pantheon.

If it didn't take up so much text, I'd almost say normalizing the building pantheons to be +1 in every city, +1 on the building, just so you are guaranteed a free +1 trickle no matter how slow the components end up being.

Maybe there's a path where Sun can be an alternative expansionist pantheon to Expanse, where it gives you something from founding a city instead of just from border expansions? The granary tie in makes me want something settler-related.

 

[Stalker0]

Maybe there's a path where Sun can be an alternative expansionist pantheon to Expanse, where it gives you something from founding a city instead of just from border expansions? The granary tie in makes me want something settler-related.

Some instant yield boost of faith + x yield when you found a city is an interesting idea. The trick is happiness management, the fewer per turn non-faith yields a pantheon provides, the weaker its happiness management is.

 

[ma_kuh]

Yeah, that's true. I mean, you could always put the free food or whatever in the capital/holy city, and at least this way you would be over-populating the one city that can probably handle it. Doesn't let the new city's needs go down, but it also doesn't work against itself by skyrocketing them.

Hmm, although with that said, just a straight Happiness on Granaries does have the subtle effect of also being golden age points, which I find thematic for the Sun pantheon.

Do we have a WLTKD pantheon already? "+1 (doubled during WLTKD)" to granaries actually seems kind of solid.

 

[rkkn]

I want to propose that the explore area quests don't ask you to explore an area that can't be reached (from where the city state is) without crossing deep ocean. Restriction removed after renaissance (or medieval?).

Is this possible? Can the game determine this?

I also want to propose similar for requests to clear barbarian camps.

 

[azum4roll]

CvPlayer::CanCrossOcean does what you want, and is already used for the Connect Resource quest.
I'd say it's a bugfix instead of a proposal.

1. No explore quests until you can cross ocean. If given too early with the check added, it's not fair to the players that spawn on smaller landmasses.
2. No clearing barbarian camps you can't reach. There should be existing functions for this.

 

[ma_kuh]

Saving this [counter-]proposal for later. I like the idea of it but I'm not sure adding another pantheon change up is a good idea for this congress, if we can help it. Also I'd want to move the Jungle/Forest component elsewhere.

Summary:
God of War continues to dominate as the only hard-scaling combat pantheon in the roster. We need a new pantheon that helps capture this, without further adding fuel to the single fire. Two scaling components, one of which is a reliable founding component, makes God of War too necessary, with no alternative should it be taken from you.

Pantheon	Current	Proposed	Reasoning
God of War	Gain Faith from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +2 Faith and +2 Production from Barracks.	Gain Faith Gold from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +2 Faith and +2 Production from Barracks. Barracks gives +10% towards military units.
Goddess of Renewal	+1 Faith, Culture, and Science for every 2 worked Jungle/Forest tiles. +2 Food and Science from Markets.	Renamed: Goddess of Rebirth +1 Faith, Culture, and Science for every 2 worked Jungle/Forest tiles. +2 Food and Science from Markets. Gain Faith and Food from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +1 Production for every 5 Population in the city.

 

[Stalker0]

Saving this [counter-]proposal for later. I like the idea of it but I'm not sure adding another pantheon change up is a good idea for this congress, if we can help it. Also I'd want to move the Jungle/Forest component elsewhere.

Summary:
God of War continues to dominate as the only hard-scaling combat pantheon in the roster. We need a new pantheon that helps capture this, without further adding fuel to the single fire. Two scaling components, one of which is a reliable founding component, makes God of War too necessary, with no alternative should it be taken from you.

Pantheon	Current	Proposed	Reasoning
God of War	Gain Faith from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +2 Faith and +2 Production from Barracks.	Gain Faith Gold from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +2 Faith and +2 Production from Barracks. Barracks gives +10% towards military units.
Goddess of Renewal	+1 Faith, Culture, and Science for every 2 worked Jungle/Forest tiles. +2 Food and Science from Markets.	Renamed: Goddess of Rebirth +1 Faith, Culture, and Science for every 2 worked Jungle/Forest tiles. +2 Food and Science from Markets. Gain Faith and Food from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +1 Production for every 5 Population in the city.

I'm not a fan of removing a forest boosting pantheon...I think if you were going to pick one to drop there are several underperforming pantheons that would make better candidates.

 

[ma_kuh]

Part of not wanting to submit this is that I want the forest pantheon to exist elsewhere, and I don't have the mental energy to figure that out right now. Plus it would be good to see how the current host of pantheon tweaks goes to see where the overlaps are before proceeding.

Mainly I just don't want +10% production to be stacked with +225% faith from kills, honestly. I think they should be on different pantheons.

 

[rkkn]

if it's getting a rename and a complete and total rework, why even touch renewal? just make rebirth a new pantheon

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Here's what I was thinking for God of the Sun. It's a more streamlined approach to it, making it similar to Hunt and Springtime. Sun's problem is that it gives too much Food and nothing else.
+1 Food, +1 Science, +1 Faith from Farms on Resources (from 3Food on Farms); +2 Faith, +2 Gold from Granaries (down from 3 Faith)

 

[Tarzan737]

The opportunity to annex a vassal Civilizaton into your civilization

Only IF x turns has passed and Only IF
They are extremely happy about it

 

[Autoraem]

Should there be a catchup feature for culture in World Congress like Scholars in Residence but for culture?

 

[rkkn]

I'd say it's a bugfix instead of a proposal.

Should I make a github report, then?

 

[Achico]

Belief	Current	Proposed	Reasoning
(Celtic) Bran, the Sleeping Guardian	+25% increase in City Ranged Combat Strength and +25% Growth. +15 Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness per following City. +5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.	+25% increase in City Ranged Combat Strength +25% Growth in every City +15 Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Production and Gold for every 4 Citizens in a City +1 Happiness per following City. +5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.
(Celtic) Dagda, the All-Father	+1 Culture, Gold, Production, Science in the Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned Cities. +5HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory. +2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.	+1 Culture, Gold, Production, Science, Food, Golden Age Point in the Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned Cities. +25% increase in City Ranged Combat Strength. +10HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory. +2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.
(Celtic) Epona, the Great Mare	+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10 Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era. +5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.	+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +15 Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expands naturally, scaling with Era. +1 tile working range in every city +5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.
God of All Creation	+1 Faith from Monuments and +1 Culture in Capital +1 Food, Production, Gold, and Science in Capital/Holy City for every two Pantheons ever founded(caps at 8 total)	+1 : Faith from Monuments and +1 Culture in Capital +1 Culture, Food, Production, Gold, and Science in Capital/Holy City for every two Pantheons ever founded(caps at 8 total)
Goddess of Protection	+10 HP healed per turn in Friendly territory. +3 Faith from Palace, +2 Faith and Culture from Walls.	+10 HP healed per turn in Friendly territory. +3 Faith from Palace, +2 Defense, Faith and Culture from Walls.
Council of Elders	When a city adopts your religion for the first time, gain 20 Science and Production in your Holy City, scaling gradually based on the number of cities following your Religion (bonus caps at 25 Cities) Unlocks Holy Council National Wonder (+4 Faith, +5 Food; +5 Science from Holy Sites; unlocks Reformation Belief)	When a city adopts your religion for the first time, gain 30 Science and Production in your Holy City, scaling gradually based on the number of cities following your Religion (bonus caps at 25 Cities) Unlocks Holy Council National Wonder (+4 Faith, +5 Food;+5 Science from Holy Sites; unlocks Reformation Belief)
Creativity	+1 Culture for every 3 Followers in the City (max +6 Culture) and +2 Faith if you have at least one Specialist in the City	+1 Culture for every 3 Followers in the City (max +10 Culture) and +2 Faith if you have at least one Specialist in the City

(Celtic) Bran the Sleeping Guardian - +25 ranged strength looks unnecessary here, therefore moved to "Dagda". +15 Gold when citizen is born stucks with progress finisher, therefore it is proposed to add production and gold dependent on the population

(Celtic) Dagda, the All-Father - The main part has only a slight advantage over God-King. +5 HP even weaker than the current Goddess of Protection first ability.

(Celtic) Epona, the Great Mare - Strange pantheon. God of Expanse gives 40 yields - why should there be less? For more efficient use of potentially huge territories +1 working range is proposed. Of course, "expands naturally" is needed in description.

God of All Creation - Ohh, this weird 1 culture just seems out of place. Plus a small upgrade

Goddess of Protection - It's too strong right now for ordinary pantheon, and doesn't need 3 different abilities. 2 Defense instead of faith can justify "Protection" in the title.

Council of Elders - Feels like an upgrade is needed

Creativity - Of course culture is too valuable but... in a City with 30 population, 15 science/production would be better than current 6 culture in any case.
-----------
One Question: is it possible to implement "+ happiness" stats on objects like Holy Sites?

 

[azum4roll]

That Protection is unfoundable. Creativity isn't a good belief right now and certainly doesn't need a nerf. +4 Culture at that point of the game is likely way too good (All Creation).

 

[rkkn]

any interest in reworking reclusive city states to be more interesting instead of just worse than other city states?

 

[Achico]

That Protection is unfoundable. Creativity isn't a good belief right now and certainly doesn't need a nerf. +4 Culture at that point of the game is likely way too good (All Creation).

azum4roll, I appreciate your opinion. ​

​

But still, that Protection (with +3 Faith to the palace) has about the same probability of becoming a religion as All Creation with its +1 from Monuments.​

When we expand to 3-4 cities, we pretty quickly get as much as 6-8 Culture from Protection. It's still too much even without additional Faith

From All Creation we get curently 1 fixed Culture in Capital instead of 4 proposed ones, which makes the pantheon very weak in comparison with others (Only 4 potential Science is interesting). Proposing these +3 (not +4, cause we have 1 in current version) Culture can make the pantheon a little more usable (However it is still bad in long-term)

Creativity is weak (I guess nobody pick it) due to the restriction of 6 Culture(and slow rate 1/3 of course), therefore I suggest increasing this limit to 10 Culture in total. Sacrificing useless at this stage +2 Faith instead doesn't look like a nerf.

 

[Rekk]

You don't pick All Creation if you plan on founding.

 

[azum4roll]

But still, that Protection (with +3 Faith to the palace) has about the same probability of becoming a religion as All Creation with its +1 from Monuments.

All Creation is supposed to NOT found, and has immediately available (and high) yields to compensate.
The proposed Protection also can't found, but the yields are late (stuck behind a late Ancient building when religions are founded early Classical). The defense points and yields will be lost as soon as someone else spreads to you.

Creativity is weak (I guess nobody pick it) due to the restriction of 6

[/URL] Culture(and slow rate 1/3 of course), therefore I suggest increasing this limit to 10

[/URL] Culture in total. Sacrificing useless at this stage +2

[/URL] Faith instead doesn't look like a nerf.

Creativity isn't weak because of the cap. How often are you going to have more than 18 followers (not population!) before the yields stop mattering?

 

[Achico]

Rekk, azum4roll, I realized that there are different visions on the concept.

In my style of play, I try to create a religion 99% of the time, even on Deity. Therefore, in my understanding, every pantheon should have a chance to grow into a religion. But I get your point, though still believe that Protection and All Creation should be balanced.

Speaking of Creativity: when playing for Celts, 18+ followers are quite common. But I also understand your idea that the increment is too stretched and difficult to achieve.

In this case, I would like to suggest other possible proposals for Creativity:

+2 Culture for every 5 Followers in the City (max +10 Culture)
or
+1 Culture for every 3 Followers in the City (max +8 Culture). and +2 Culture if you have at least one Specialist in the City