Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop

[azum4roll]

It's not exactly "passive". You want to snowball with your high pressure (= more food = more pressure, a positive feedback loop), so there's an incentive to go thick, build pressure-boosting buildings (+TR-lengthening ones) early, and take those beliefs. All of them are active choices.

The numbers are currently toned too high, so expect the pressure to go back down to 0.6 per follower (still pre-modifiers).

 

[ma_kuh]

Orthodoxy's behavior ("Pressure to friendly City-States and via owned Trade Routes doubled") should be the core mechanic. Weaken adjacent city passive spread (mostly India's), and either make TR-enhanced spreading baseline, or replace the building spread modifiers with +25% spread from TRs (number subject to balance).

Directing your passive spread via trade routes is way more engaging than trying to out-pressure people with population.

 

[azum4roll]

Orthodoxy's behavior ("Pressure to friendly City-States and via owned Trade Routes doubled") should be the core mechanic. Weaken adjacent city passive spread (mostly India's), and either make TR-enhanced spreading baseline, or replace the building spread modifiers with +25% spread from TRs (number subject to balance).

Directing your passive spread via trade routes is way more engaging than trying to out-pressure people with population.

That'll create a scenario where you spread better to further cities than your neighbours (and your own). "TR from trade route" is Base Pressure - Base Pressure modified by Distance.

 

[ma_kuh]

That'll create a scenario where you spread better to further cities than your neighbours (and your own). "TR from trade route" is Base Pressure - Base Pressure modified by Distance.

Does Base Pressure already account for city connections? If not, it could. Those are basically (weak) gold-only internal TRs you get for free, and would make sense to apply the boosted pressure. That would help with internal pressure (if that's a thing that needs solving). As for better spread in far-away cities than neighboring foreign cities, I see that as working as intended that your trade delegations are spreading your faith, and if they aren't trading in nearby cities, those cities aren't hearing your words.

 

[Zuizgond]

Orthodoxy's behavior ("Pressure to friendly City-States and via owned Trade Routes doubled") should be the core mechanic. Weaken adjacent city passive spread (mostly India's), and either make TR-enhanced spreading baseline, or replace the building spread modifiers with +25% spread from TRs (number subject to balance).

Directing your passive spread via trade routes is way more engaging than trying to out-pressure people with population.

I like the idea of increasing active spreading from TR and reducing passive spreading but then we should find a new mechanic for Byzantine.

 

[ma_kuh]

How have the Granary/Lodge/Herbalist changes shaken out? I think I like Granary/Lodge interplay, but it's annoying that you can't run Food TRs from a lodge --you eventually need the Granary anyway, which kind of defeats the purpose of treating them as "equivalent food structures".

Herbalist I build more for the plantation hammers than food, I think that one isn't quite living up to its goals. I wonder if making it a foil to the Stoneworks might be an interesting approach? Something like requiring plantation resources, give it a little more and bump it back to 110 .

 

[Stalker0]

How have the Granary/Lodge/Herbalist changes shaken out? I think I like Granary/Lodge interplay, but it's annoying that you can't run Food TRs from a lodge --you eventually need the Granary anyway, which kind of defeats the purpose of treating them as "equivalent food structures".

Herbalist I build more for the plantation hammers than food, I think that one isn't quite living up to its goals. I wonder if making it a foil to the Stoneworks might be an interesting approach? Something like requiring plantation resources, give it a little more and bump it back to 110 .

My general thoughts:

1) Granary is a solid and essential building. You always build it, its just a question of when.
2) Lodge has a solid niche when you have certain terrain (which is fairly common). And the +2 BGP is good enough to put me over the top sometimes, especially on progress where border growth is a weakness and you get building bonuses anyway.
3) Herbalist is the most niche, and most often the building that just stays in my queue, but its cheap enough that it still gets good use.

In summary, I'm pretty darn happy with the balance right now.

 

[axatin]

God of Stars and Sky (1 Faith, Culture and Food for Tundra/Snow tiles with Resources) can be way too strong. What do you think about changing it to "1 Faith, Culture and Food for every two worked Tundra/Snow tiles"?

 

[Stalker0]

God of Stars and Sky (1 Faith, Culture and Food for Tundra/Snow tiles with Resources) can be way too strong. What do you think about changing it to "1 Faith, Culture and Food for every two worked Tundra/Snow tiles"?

I think dropping the faith like that would make it too hard for founding, but the other adjustments miiiiiight be worth considering.

Aka +1 faith per tundra. +1 culture/food per 2 tundra.

 

[pineappledan]

it's too strong. It's not 100% too strong. It's more like 33% too strong.

 

[Undertaker02]

- add an option to change the number of available religions when creating a game.
Maybe a slider like one for city-states, or a box to enter a number like the one for max turns?

- Add a way to change the size of the mini-map in-game. Or at least, in the UI, make a button in the the top right that you can click to bring up a full screen version of the map. (kinda like the one in the religion menu tab. But make it for political instead of religious control of cities)
People like me, running the game on 2560x1440, the minimap becomes hilariously small and useless in the mid-game. Specially when playing on large, huge or any bigger custom maps.

43 civ option for Vox populi is way more stable now. Much better than a few years ago. I can run games entirely without the game bugging up, it's great. However there is still two things annoying me.

- Increase the number of available city-states past 20.
- After a congress vote, there is an icon that appears for every issue voted on the right side. Hovering your mouse on them tells you who voted for what. However, past a certain amount of civs, some of the votes do not show up. I'm also uncertain as to if they were also counted.

 

[N.Core]

- add an option to change the number of available religions when creating a game.
Maybe a slider like one for city-states, or a box to enter a number like the one for max turns?

Impossible without changing the Advanced Setup lua file, which can cause incompatibility with other mods that also affect the same thing (e.g. Really Advanced Setup.) So no, I kinda disagree.

- Add a way to change the size of the mini-map in-game. Or at least, in the UI, make a button in the the top right that you can click to bring up a full screen version of the map. (kinda like the one in the religion menu tab. But make it for political instead of religious control of cities)
People like me, running the game on 2560x1440, the minimap becomes hilariously small and useless in the mid-game. Specially when playing on large, huge or any bigger custom maps.

You have to edit it yourself. UI is harder to work than it looks. Adding options is possible, but there is other stuff to fix first in order to make it possible.
I already give you a guide here.

Quick Questions / Quick Answers

Is there anyway to change the size of the minimap and make it look good? I'm playing huge maps on a 2560X1440 resolution and the minimap is next to useless once it starts zooming out in the mid/late game. I've tried to edit the "config" file in the My Games/Sid Meier's Civilization 5 folder. Ive...

forums.civfanatics.com

43 civ option for Vox populi is way more stable now. Much better than a few years ago. I can run games entirely without the game bugging up, it's great. However there is still two things annoying me.

- Increase the number of available city-states past 20.

If you're playing with 43 civs, then it's impossible. The DLL only has a limit up to 64 individual entities on the map and you can't have more, with one slot reserved for barbarians.
Regular DLL has 22 civs + 41 CS, so it's 63 entities. While 43 civs games can only have 20 CS.

- After a congress vote, there is an icon that appears for every issue voted on the right side. Hovering your mouse on them tells you who voted for what. However, past a certain amount of civs, some of the votes do not show up. I'm also uncertain as to if they were also counted.

Notification limitation. It can't show a lot of items within a single notification. Don't worry, your missing vote counts.

 

[axatin]

Maybe it depends very much on the map. I play on Tectonic, and there God of Stars and Skies is definitely more than 100% better than every other pantheon in the game. Is it different for other maps?

Spoiler :

 

[pineappledan]

that is an outrageous amount of resource density. The default continents maps don't have stone and deer on every 2nd tile.

So yes, I would say that you are playing with a mapscript that is heavily biasing your perception.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The World Congress Projects may want another look at to see if their rewards are worth the increased Production costs. The Silver cost is the Hammer per Civ and the Bronze Cost is half of this. The Treasure Fleet has you paying 750 Production (Bronze) for 300 GA Points and 1 Frigate, which are worth 375 Production. A little low on the value scale. Where as something like the International Games has you putting in 6750 Hammers for a Great Person and a 50% Tourism Modifier for 20 Turns. The Tourism Modifier is a bit ambiguous whether I would always want it, but the Great Person can be well worth the 6750 Hammers.

Spoiler The World Congress Projects :

 

[N.Core]

Maybe it depends very much on the map. I play on Tectonic, and there God of Stars and Skies is definitely more than 100% better than every other pantheon in the game. Is it different for other maps?

Spoiler :

View attachment 665150

That's an insane amount of resources. Look at those Stones!
Because my map doesn't alter any resource placement, it's probably the AssignStartingPlots.lua file that's causing this.

 

[axatin]

I see, then it is an issue with the map. But as there's some agreement that the pantheon is too strong also on other maps, we can maybe settle on "1 Food and 1 Faith per worked Tundra/Snow and 1 Culture for every two worked Tundra/Snow". That would nerf the pantheon slightly and also make it less dependent on the mapscript.

 

[Undertaker02]

If you're playing with 43 civs, then it's impossible. The DLL only has a limit up to 64 individual entities on the map and you can't have more, with one slot reserved for barbarians.
Regular DLL has 22 civs + 41 CS, so it's 63 entities. While 43 civs games can only have 20 CS.

Then, would it be possible to remove the hardcap on the city-state slider to give more leeway?
Or at least make an alternate dll file?

22 civs is not enough in the normal version while only 20 city-states is very penalizing for some civilizations in the 43 civ dll.
Something like 33 civ + 30 city state to be middle of the road between the two.

 

[pineappledan]

Proposal: changes to America's 3 wonders

Spoiler current America wonders :

Hoover Dam

1500​

Available at Electricity​

Mutually exclusive​

22​

22 to Every World Wonder on Empire​

1Great Engineer Point​

-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles​

FREE Hydro Plant in this city​

+5Gold and Production to Factories and Stadiums on Empire​

10% of all Gold generated on Empire is converted to Production​

+25% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Tiles in all cities' contributes to Tourism Output.​

All Trade Units complete their routes 25% faster​

Smithsonian Institute

1500​

Available at Biology​

Mutually exclusive​

22​

22 to Every World Wonder on Empire​

1Great Scientist points​

-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles​

FREE Museum in ALL Cities on Empire​

+5Science and Culture to Museums and Research Labs on Empire​

10% of all Gold generated on Empire is converted to Culture​

West Point

Available at Replaceable Parts​

Mutually exclusive​

22​

22 to Every World Wonder on Empire​

5 City Defense​

5Great General Points​

-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles​

5 Science and Production to Military Academies and Military Bases on Empire​

10% of all Gold generated on Empire is converted to Science​

3 FREE Iron​

3 FREE Artillery Units appear next to this City​

All Siege and Naval Ranged units on Empire receive Splash I​

Proposal:

• Replace Hoover Dam with Slater Mill
  • Current Slater Mill becomes Soho Foundry
  • No changes to Soho Foundry; not even the art needs to change. Just purely text
  • New Slater mill full writeup below
• Make all 3 American wonders World Wonders:
  • change from 1 max player instance to 1 world player instance
  • Gives a Historic Event when completed
  • Capturable by other civs
  • Subject to wonder production modifiers
• move all 3 wonders earlier, into Industrial
  • Reduce all construction costs to 1000, in keeping with earlier unlock
  • Slater Mill unlocks at Industrialization
  • West Point unlocks at Military Science
  • Smithsonian unlocks at Archaeology

Spoiler New 3 Wonders. differences from current versions underlined :

Slater Mill

1000​

Available at Industrialization​

Mutually exclusive​

22​

22 to Every World Wonder on Empire​

1Great Engineer Point​

10% of all Gold generated on Empire is converted to Production​

-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles​

FREE Factory in this City​

+5Gold and Production to Factories and Stock Exchanges on Empire​

+1 Trade Route Slot, and All Trade Units complete their routes 25% faster​

- No more free Hydro Plant​

- Removed 25% Culture from tiles converted to Tourism​

Smithsonian Institute

1000​

Available at Archaeology​

Mutually exclusive​

22​

22 to Every World Wonder on Empire​

1Great Scientist points​

10% of all Gold generated on Empire is converted to Culture​

-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles​

FREE Museum in this City​

+5 to Landmarks and Artifacts on Empire​

+5Science and Culture to Museums and Research Labs on Empire​

- Free Museum is now only in 1 city and not on Empire​

​

West Point

Available at Military Science​

Mutually exclusive​

22​

22 to Every World Wonder on Empire​

5 City Defense​

5Great General Points​

10% of all Gold generated on Empire is converted to Science​

-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles​

FREE Military Academy in this City​

5 Science and Production to Military Academies and Arsenals on Empire​

All Siege and Naval Ranged units on Empire receive Splash I​

- No more free iron and Artillery Units​

Reasoning
Making them world wonders:

• Making them all full-blown world wonders is more interesting and cool
• Differentiates America's world wonders from Venice's national wonders
• justifies their higher production cost

Moving them forward

• The modern era unlocks were too late. You didn't get a lot of time to play with them. Moving them forward 1 tech level will feel a little better
• Historically, all of the 3 wonders are Industrial era.
  • The Smithsonian institute was founded in 1818, and the iconic castle was built in 1847
  • West Point was first occupied as a military base in 1778, and was inaugurated as a military academy in 1802
  • Slater Mill was constructed and began business in 1793

Swapping Slater Mill and Soho Foundry

• The Hoover Dam is more than 100 years older than the other 2 wonders, and was out of place.
• Slater Mill is a better fit, closer to the other 2 in time
• The current bonuses in-game, the timing, and even the art used for Slater Mill currently would fit Soho Foundry better
  • Slater Mill uses this icon, from the vanilla civ 5 atlas:
    
  • That icon obviously is not Slater Mill. It's a generic refinery/factory with smoke stacks, but the Slater Mill is a water-powered cloth mill. It doesn't have smoke stacks
  • The Soho Foundry is the place where the first steam engines were built.
  • Soho Foundry was built by Watt & Crick. Watt was the original inventor of what we think of as the first modern steam engine, replacing the Newcomen engine.
  • re: world impact, Soho Foundry has much more to do with coal, steam power, and the industrialization of the world economy than Slater Mill, which is only relevant to American history
  • Slater Mill was the first English-style cloth mill in North America. It marked the beginning of America’s entry into the Industrial Age. But Slater Mill was a river-powered cloth mill that was 20 years younger than the Soho Foundry and the first coal-powered factories in England.

Balance changes

• The current smithsonian gives a free museum everywhere. Unless you are already inches away from a domination win it is almost always the best pick. The hammers and maintenance it saves on empire can't be outdone.
• With the industrial unlock we can put a building on each of the wonders from that tech which fit perfectly with the theme.
• Armory has been moved back to Modern, so that is an appropriate tech level for the 2nd boosted building on West point. With Hoover being replaced and moved sooner we can tie it more into instead of . The stock exchange is at an appropriate tech level and theme.
• Both Hoover and smithsonian gave CV-related bonuses and it wasn’t great to have the two piled up like that. It also made it pretty clear how inferior Hoover Dam was. I’m hoping players can make use of that extra trade route, and that the earlier and compounding global yields on the factories makes the new Slater mill more of a contender.

 

[N.Core]

Then, would it be possible to remove the hardcap on the city-state slider to give more leeway?
Or at least make an alternate dll file?

22 civs is not enough in the normal version while only 20 city-states is very penalizing for some civilizations in the 43 civ dll.
Something like 33 civ + 30 city state to be middle of the road between the two.

The slider reads dynamically the maximum amount of CS that can be added in a game.

The hardcoded part is in the DLL, someone has to make a custom 33 civ + 30 CS version of DLL.
Also, not just the DLL, but also AdvancedSetup.lua file and some custom modmods have to account for compatibility for it.