Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop
- Thread starter Recursive
- Start date
-
- Tags
- vp congress
Not exactly. When you don't have a majority of a founded religion in your civilisation anymore, you still have benefits in cities where there is a dominant religion.
No it isn't. Civilization-level benefits, like receiving science when you spread your religion with Council of Elders, or receiving faith/golden age points from conquering with Hero Worship, apply immediately after you found your religion. You don't need the majority of your cities to follow your founded religion. On the other hand, faith on kill from God of War is completely lost if conquering a city leads to the majority of your cities (or 50%) being faithless.
To be clear, I am not concerned about the conquered city not receiving the city-level benefits like +1 faith from barracks and whatnot. My issue is with the civilization-level benefits from God of War/Defense/Expansion being completely wiped out by conquering a city.
Last edited:
They're all based on "owning the Holy City of your primary religion". But you don't have one before founding a religion, so it has to be based on majority.
If you're trying to push for a redefinition of a game concept, you should specify it more clearly. Don't try to lump pantheons and religions together.
(God of War etc. does work even if none of your cities follow your founded religion. God of the Expanse is local however and I don't know why you included it.)
Last edited:
Yeah I guess I mistakenly remembered God of the Expanse as disappearing as well if you dropped below the majority. I simply think that it should not be possible to effectively temporarily lose your pantheon through conquering. How that is implemented, either by making pantheons spread to conquered cities in the pre-founder stage as they do to settled cities, or by attaching the God of War/Goddess of Protection civilization-wide bonus to your capital, or some other solution, is up to the community.
Nitpicking about the visuals and naming of late-game units
The Mechanized Infantry model and animations do not reflect the infantry aspect of the unit well enough. It'd be nice if the unit could also depict troops outside the vehicles, like what Civ 6 did. For a civ5 example I guess it could be something like this.
The Bazooka unit feels really out of place in the Information Era. They're clearly WW2 Germans and they're using Panzerschrecks yet they're gonna be fighting Modern Armour? Again it makes me think of what Civ6 does better with two seperate units, AT Team (with a Panzerschreck) and Modern AT (with a FGM-148 Javelin). It'd be nice to see remodel (and rename) to be similar to the latter. And maybe the current Bazooka model could be a weaker predecessor Atomic Era unit unlocked by Rocketry tech? (But that's beyond being a visual+name change so moving on).
The Tiger that was in vanilla the German special unit "Panzer" becoming the model for the basic Tank while the vanilla Tank model becoming a special Order ideology specific T-34 unit is pretty interesting. The problem is that the Tiger has a eye-catching desert camo scheme and I just can't shake the feeling that it's a special unit... It doesn't even need it's model replaced, just needs a retexture. A repaint to more generic green-grey would make the line Landship - Tank - Modern Armour all share similar colour scheme and just look more cohesive in progression. Or alternatively (considering the other Information Era units seem to have sandy colour schemes) Modern Armour could be retextured to a desert camo instead.
The "Light Tank" unit with the Ford 3-ton M1918 model just visually doesn't sit right next to the later tech units. It looks fine brand new as part of a Modern Era army but considering it's got to last till it's replaced by the Attack Helicopter at Mobile Tactics, it needs to visually work throughout the Atomic Era as well, and it does not. Two options I can think of:
1. Keep as "Light Tank" but change the model to something more interwar or early WW2 than WW1. Examples for model: Panzer II, A13 Cruiser, M3 Stuart, Ha-Go, T-60 or whatever. Pro: No need to change name and there are lots of light tank models. Con: Light tanks became increasingly obsolete over the course of WW2 so they might still feel out of place in late Atomic Era war. Also, might be visually muddled with a normal Tank and make people wonder why they can't upgrade their light tanks into heavy ones.
2. rename and remodel to "Armoured Car". (From what I can see from old 2016 posts this is what was originally the case, except it used a Smoky Skies scenario asset which just looked even more out of place). Examples for model: SPW 22, Panhard 178, Otter LRC, Humber AC, etc etc. Pro: Armoured car design stayed relatively timeless (Cold War examples: BRDM-2, Ferret SC, Fox AC, AML-90). Also I feel a four wheeled light cannon armed car is more fitting as a successor to skirmisher cavalry than a light tank, and harder to visually confuse with an actual medium tank. Con: Fewer models/art assets, early armoured cars came before tanks did so it might feel weird to see them come later in the tech tree.
The Mechanized Infantry model and animations do not reflect the infantry aspect of the unit well enough. It'd be nice if the unit could also depict troops outside the vehicles, like what Civ 6 did. For a civ5 example I guess it could be something like this.
The Bazooka unit feels really out of place in the Information Era. They're clearly WW2 Germans and they're using Panzerschrecks yet they're gonna be fighting Modern Armour? Again it makes me think of what Civ6 does better with two seperate units, AT Team (with a Panzerschreck) and Modern AT (with a FGM-148 Javelin). It'd be nice to see remodel (and rename) to be similar to the latter. And maybe the current Bazooka model could be a weaker predecessor Atomic Era unit unlocked by Rocketry tech? (But that's beyond being a visual+name change so moving on).
The Tiger that was in vanilla the German special unit "Panzer" becoming the model for the basic Tank while the vanilla Tank model becoming a special Order ideology specific T-34 unit is pretty interesting. The problem is that the Tiger has a eye-catching desert camo scheme and I just can't shake the feeling that it's a special unit... It doesn't even need it's model replaced, just needs a retexture. A repaint to more generic green-grey would make the line Landship - Tank - Modern Armour all share similar colour scheme and just look more cohesive in progression. Or alternatively (considering the other Information Era units seem to have sandy colour schemes) Modern Armour could be retextured to a desert camo instead.
The "Light Tank" unit with the Ford 3-ton M1918 model just visually doesn't sit right next to the later tech units. It looks fine brand new as part of a Modern Era army but considering it's got to last till it's replaced by the Attack Helicopter at Mobile Tactics, it needs to visually work throughout the Atomic Era as well, and it does not. Two options I can think of:
1. Keep as "Light Tank" but change the model to something more interwar or early WW2 than WW1. Examples for model: Panzer II, A13 Cruiser, M3 Stuart, Ha-Go, T-60 or whatever. Pro: No need to change name and there are lots of light tank models. Con: Light tanks became increasingly obsolete over the course of WW2 so they might still feel out of place in late Atomic Era war. Also, might be visually muddled with a normal Tank and make people wonder why they can't upgrade their light tanks into heavy ones.
2. rename and remodel to "Armoured Car". (From what I can see from old 2016 posts this is what was originally the case, except it used a Smoky Skies scenario asset which just looked even more out of place). Examples for model: SPW 22, Panhard 178, Otter LRC, Humber AC, etc etc. Pro: Armoured car design stayed relatively timeless (Cold War examples: BRDM-2, Ferret SC, Fox AC, AML-90). Also I feel a four wheeled light cannon armed car is more fitting as a successor to skirmisher cavalry than a light tank, and harder to visually confuse with an actual medium tank. Con: Fewer models/art assets, early armoured cars came before tanks did so it might feel weird to see them come later in the tech tree.
Attachments
We were having a discussion about bazooka and the mech infantry model on discord the other day.
The suggestion I prefer is to move the mech infantry model to the ranged unit (currently bazooka) and call it like autocannon or similar.
The infantry unit should get some kind of actually-person-involving model, as you suggest.
The tanks don't bother me personally, but if you can find a better model we can consider changing it.
Same goes for the light tank model.
I also wonder if something that could help is bringing the helicopter a tech column earlier.
They're a really cool unit but come very late. IRL we had helicopters in the atomic era (famously), so it makes sense.
The suggestion I prefer is to move the mech infantry model to the ranged unit (currently bazooka) and call it like autocannon or similar.
The infantry unit should get some kind of actually-person-involving model, as you suggest.
The tanks don't bother me personally, but if you can find a better model we can consider changing it.
Same goes for the light tank model.
I also wonder if something that could help is bringing the helicopter a tech column earlier.
They're a really cool unit but come very late. IRL we had helicopters in the atomic era (famously), so it makes sense.
That does sound neat. "autocannon" unit could be called Fire Support and would be more of a direct Machine Gun evolution (no Anti-Tank Rounds, only 2 range) but it would still have Covering Fire II so it would not be particularly weak fighting tanks like its predecessor, just not particularly strong against them either. It could also gain the DFPs promotion.
Both it and Mechanized Infantry would have 3 movement. In my opinion whatever actually-person-involving model Mechanized Infantry gets, it should also include one or two APCs in the unit because it wouldn't feel very Mobile Tactics otherwise. (Maybe with an edited model to look something like a M1126 Stryker infantry carrier vehicle). Simultaneously the Fire Support unit could include modern machine gunner guys alongside the autocannon-armed IFVs to make it feel like more of a direct Machine Gun evolution...
... then again that would require a lot of modeling. Alternatively have it the easier way with the visuals but rename "Mechanized Infantry" to simply "Modern Infantry" and have their base movement drop to 2 because they're all gonna be on foot. Fire Support however would still have 3 movement (and just use the current Mech Infantry model+art assets with vehicles only), and would get a special promotion that makes it grant your adjacent infantry +1 Movement on turn start. That still feels Tactical Mobility to me, but it might be tricky for AIs and also for unaware players too.
Modern Infantry would get compensation for depending on fire support vehicles for mobility, through gains in the attacking department via Javelin Volley promotion! Except in this context instead of being a volley of hand-thrown spears it would be a volley of anti-tank guided missiles, heheh. Maybe also impart a bonus against Armoured units (le Pike and Shot revivial). Fire Support would be vital not only in providing more mobility for your own infantry but also in weakening enemy infantry so they aren't as much trouble for your tanks.
The Light Tank model could possibly be replaced with this Stuart one:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ5-us-ww2-tank-m3-stuart-5-skins.493192/
In a similar way maybe the normal Tank could become a Sherman (meanwhile the Tiger/Panzer could potentially become a Militaristic City-State exclusive unit):
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ5-us-ww2-tank-m4-sherman.483122/
(Both might need a little touch up to make the team colours look decent)
Problem is currently the Atomic Era is a weird blend of WW2 and the Cold War and ingame warfare jumps straight from late WW2 to being basically contemporary. Move back a column and you're on Radar with inline engine prop fighters and bombers. Reducing this "temporal compression" would be a big ask, but imagine a post-Atomic but pre-Information era prominently featuring early-mid Cold War style units...
| Modern Era (column 1) | (column 2) | Atomic Era | Post-Atomic Era | Information Era | |||
| Submarine | Attack Submarine | Nuclear Submarine | |||||
| Destroyer | Fleet Destroyer | Missile Destroyer | Sensor Combat Ship | ||||
| Dreadnought | Battleship | Missile Cruiser | |||||
| Carrier | Supercarrier | ||||||
| Triplane | Fighter | Jet Fighter | Stealth Fighter | ||||
| Bomber | Heavy Bomber | Strategic Bomber | Stealth Bomber | ||||
| Paratrooper | Special Forces | XCOM Squad | |||||
| Rocket-Missile | Ballistic Missile | Guided Missile | |||||
| Nuclear Bomb | Nuclear Missile | ||||||
| Riflemen | Infantry | (Heavy?) Infantry | Modern Infantry | ||||
| Landship | Tank | (Main) Battle Tank | Modern Armour | ||||
| Artillery | Mobile Artillery | Rocket Artillery | |||||
| Anti-Aircraft Gun | Mobile Anti-Air Gun | Mobile SAM | Mobile ADATS | ||||
| Light Tank | Helicopter | Helicopter Gunship | Stealth Gunship | ||||
| Machine Gun | Fire Support | Mobile Fire Support | Mobile Drone Swarm |
Missile Destroyer: use art+model from Enhanced Naval Warfare
Nuclear Submarine, Supercarrier: now arrive earlier instead of being in same tech as Giant Death Robots.
Jet Fighter, Strategic Bomber: use art+models (Mirage and TU-95 respectively) from Enhanced Air Warfare (but not stats). This mod is interesting but the way it interleaves the units in tech tree and alternates their resource requirements make it way too obvious it's trying to extract as much space out of the cramped tech tree as possible.
Also from Enhanced Air Warfare would come the MiG-29 and B-52 as upgrades to the Ideology-exclusive Zero and B-17 respectively. Existing (F-22 model) Jet Fighter is renamed to Stealth Fighter.
Paratrooper: entire line offset into the late Atomic Era because coming with Flight alongside WW1 era planes feels anachronistic. In exchange both Paratrooper and Special Forces would get strength buff due to being offset to later game warfare.
Ballistic Missile: whatever units can carry Guided Missiles (missile ships, mobile SAM) can also carry these too.
(Heavy? Infantry): Oh no now we've got a similar problem that Great War Infantry previously had before it stole the Riflemen name from its predecessor which became Fusilier.
But we can't just not call Infantry Infantry... If it remained a case of Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry, then this question would be easy- just call the Post-Atomic infantry "Motorized Infantry" and have them ride in light APCs (say, BTR-152). How confounding.
Main Battle Tank (or just Battle Tank): variety of possible models of early MBTs- M48 Patton, Centurion, Leopard 1, etc. Also, the Ideology-exclusive T-34 would get an upgrade in the form of T-55 (or maybe T-62? T-64? T-72? Idk whatever model looks best and isn't already used by custom vox populi civs)
Mobile Artillery: use M109 SPG model. Not slowed down in enemy territory (just like Rocket Artillery)
Mobile Anti-Air Gun: lots of WW2 SPAAG examples to choose from?
Mobile ADATS: similar in terms of air defense to Mobile SAM but much better at defending itself against ground targets, being quite a capable tank destroyer. Can transport and launch Guided Missiles (same as Mobile SAM)
Helicopter: Late Atomic Era interim between Light Tank and Helicopter Gunship, that's very specialized in fighting Tanks and compared to the later Helicopter Gunship isn't very good at anything else. Could be something like this ATGM-armed Alouette?
Fire Support: early version that is still foot infantry (2 movement), but doesn't have the same weakness vs Tanks as the Machine Gun. It would be cool if the model featured both recoilless rifles / bazookas / panzerschrecks alongside heavy machine guns (.50cal or MG42/MG3?)
Mobile Drone Swarm: late fire support vehicle with an attack range of 3, launching loitering munition drones at the target. Can also transport and launch Guided Missiles. Speeds up adjacent infantry just like predecessor Mobile Fire Support
Last edited:
Similar threads
