Vpr1-Monarch & Emperor

[viper275]

Definitely build military soon. St. Regis is by the river if i read correctly. That's a good spot for shields, so if we get Horses that city could probably make a Mounted Warrior factory, producing 1 every 3 turns is easy and 2 turns is possible. We could definitely go to war with the Ottomans, but if we're talking about a lot of wars in this, China seems logical because of the UU coming fairly soon, then the Ottomans. Of course, location favors us going to war with the Ottomans. IMHO we should skip the Celts until later. We could try to get them in Anarchy (I don't consider it an exploit and it wasn't forbidden in the rules), but they're Religious so I don't think that'll work too well. The Gallic Swordsman gives a big advantage to them right now because of the large amounts of tiles that don't disrupt 2 movement. They'll get Iron as it's right next to their capital. I think we should wait with them until maybe late MA.

 

[fbouthil]

@ Alexander: Good turn. There is something in your strategy that escapes me. Why should we make settling in the jungle a priority? There are still some good settling spots between the civs if we can grab them and we have our own large backyard south.

Obviously I agree with rushing the temple as I suggested it in post 56.

@

275 : Do not worry about chinese riders as they do not have horses and are far behind in tech. St.Regis has just been settled, it will take a lot of time before it can be as productive as you say.

I think we should worry about the second war after the first one has at least started.

 

[viper275]

Rushed Temple preturn, was worth the 100 gold IMHO.
Turn 1
Horses immediately stolen.
Turn 2
Not much
Turn 3
Very little
Turn 4
China will trade us Map Making for Code of Laws. That's about all they'll trade for except for lots of techs/gold. I take it.
Turn 5
Not much again.
Turn 6
I wanted a spot pretty badly and the Celts took it. At least there's another one nearby like it.
Turn 7
Akwesane founded near forests.
Turn 8
What a turn! Founded Tyendenaga near hills and marshes (I plan to clear marshes and irrigate that grassland to have citizens work mined hills.) Khamawake founded near China and Caughnanaga founded near Flood Plain and river.
Turn 9
Almost nothing, especially when compared to turn 8
Turn 10
Nothing notable, but we now have a nice little stack of MWs near Edrine.

 

[King Alexander]

Kahnawake and Caughnawaga are pretty close to foreing culture: we should connect those cities asap, work their land(1 worker for each should be enough), and build libraries and temples there.

@fbouthil: 1) I don't like my capital to have a foreing city in it's borders, 2) I'd settle the jungle, so we can strike the Ottomans from multiple bases.

I'd leave only Salamanca to build settlers, and make units in the other cities, and when their pop is high, build a worker every now and then.

This is the first time that I play with the Iroquis: now that we have horses, can we built our UU? If so, let's build as many as we can. We can decide to make war with the Chinese and take a few cities, and do the same with the Ottomans.

EDIT: Even better, we could focus on military an all cities, even Salamanca(just built a worker between every 2 units). Once we have enough units, let's attack the Ottomans, and after taking a few cities, the Chinese.

EDIT 2:Btw: good turns, Viper275.

 

[TheNemesis666]

got it. At work currently, will read turn logs tonight and start if I have now q's.

 

[fbouthil]

Kahnawake founded: At last, Pelletier and Lasagna will feel at home!

All right

275! You founded 4 cities and we have a settler waiting to settle. BTW, where was that settler heading?

@ Alex: I like the idea of rushing culture in Kahnawake as it would take the wines out of Chinese hands!

IMHO, we will be at war with Ottomans soon. :devil2: Anyone know a good way to attack them without destroying their cities? I sometimes give them tech to go to another gov so they cant poprush. At other times, I chase the capital (conquer the capital, wait for the new capital to expand, conquer the new capital, etc), but that takes a lot of time and war weariness would be a problem. I sure there is a better strategy.

BTW, there are barbs near Akwesasne, we could use the region S as training grounds.

 

[viper275]

BTW, where was that settler heading?

Nowhere in particular. I just thought that North was a good direction to go because most city sites would be there.

IMHO, we will be at war with Ottomans soon. :devil2: Anyone know a good way to attack them without destroying their cities? I sometimes give them tech to go to another gov so they cant poprush. At other times, I chase the capital (conquer the capital, wait for the new capital to expand, conquer the new capital, etc), but that takes a lot of time and war weariness would be a problem. I sure there is a better strategy.

Since our best units are fast, my advice is to get it over with quickly. Get enough Mounted Warriors to destroy them alone, then declare war and quickly get rid of them, 20 turns or under or something. We won't have to deal with WW a whole lot and they can't do too much to us in 20 turns, especially if they're trying to defend themselves. Their cities are size 1 but hopefully they will eventually grow or gain culture so that we can keep them. Attack plan should first be Edrine, then Istanbul, from there the Ottoman cities are seperated. We could either get a couple more then leave them that way, or we could heal our units, then split them into to stacks, one going to Uskudar and Izmit, the other going to Bursa and Iznik.

 

[TheNemesis666]

preturn
everything looks good

IBT
French complete the oracle in paris

530BC (1)
grand river Mount.War.->Mount.War.
settler continues n

IBT
Celts are building ToA

510BC (2)
salamanca settler->settler
allegheny worker->worker
cattaraugus Mout.war.->mount.war.

490BC (3)
Niagara Falls mount.war->spear (for tyen. defense in the coming war)

IBT
Our wine+2gpt for incense from the ottos expires
(I decide not to renew as we'll probably attack them inside the next 20)
Celts are building the Pyramids

470BC (4)
cattaraugus riots from lack of wine, employ scientist
st. regis barracks->spear (not on trade net yet)

450BC (5)
allegheny worker->worker
tonawanda mount.war->mount.war
iron is now hooked up (so is st.regis)

430BC (6)
salamanca settler->settler
niagara spear->mount.war.
centralia worker->worker
akwesasne spear->barracks

IBT
chinese galley heading s of our west coast

410BC (7)
buy temple in Kahnawake for 196g
caughnawaga worker->temple
cattaraugus mount.war.->mount.war.

390BC (8)
allegheny worker->spear
kahnawake temple->court
ottomans picked up monarchy in the last turn or two I think (unless i've missed it all along)

370BC (9)
grand river mount.war->mount.war
oka founded next to cows on river between nanking and alesia
chondote founded next to iron at uskudar (iron is in our border and if we rush a temple sometime soon the ottos won't get it)

350BC (10)
salamanca settler->settler
niagara falls mount.war->mount.war
mauch chunk mount.war->mount.war


9 mount.war sitting outside edrine 2 more on their way
settler in salamanca unmoved for next player to deploy
settler pair down south, was going to settle somewhere near their current loc.
Lit due next turn

edit - oops, the save:

 

[rrau]

nice turns.

Once we're ready for war, if Ottoman cities are still too small to take without razing, I would recommend taking the capital and other culture expanded cities, then suing for peace and getting most of their size 1 cities in the peace treaty (and monarchy if possible - but I think it's either tech or cities and would prefer the cities).

 

[King Alexander]

And if one of their city happes to be autorazed, we can always replace it!

 

[fbouthil]

All right! You guys have really put me in a good position to attack Ottomans!

Actually, my question about attacking a civ in despotism do not apply anymore as Ottomans are in Monarchy now and only 2 cities are size 1.

Since almost everyone has said his word since TheNemesis666 has played, I will play right now, but will check the forum every few turns in case you have something to add.

Plan:

• Build an embassy with Ottomans to scan for defenses and see when the wonder will be finished (only 30g).
• Go to war with Ottomans once I have about 2 MW for each spear in the capital, or a few turns before the completion of the wonder if it is almost finished.
• Build a galley on each coast to try finding another continent.
• Build TGLighthouse in Cattaraugus as it would be finished before the end of our ga and would really help galleys in their search.
• Build libraries in the cities with the most commerce when I do not need them to build more MW (unit cost is already 62!)

 

[TheNemesis666]

this all seems sensible fb. the only suggestion I might have is look at getting some defenders along our nw border in case china signs with ottos or decides to attack us while our mw's are in otto land. not a pressing issue and can be done while we are putting otto to the sword. (there was only a couple with just warrriors and we could probably just upgrade them to swords)

 

[fbouthil]

People in Edrine tremble in fear, hearing our drums of war!

350BC (preturn): Move the settler S with spear.

IBT
research: lit -> curr at 20% (15t, +6gpt)
Cattaraugus: MW -> The great lighthouse (34t)
Oil Spring: courthouse->spear (too close to frontline for lib)
Tonawanda: MW -> galley
St. Regis: Spear -> galley
Tyendenaga: Barrack -> spear

330BC (1)
Embassy with Ottomans: size 2, ToA in 144t, 3 spears, 9g.
DoW with Ottomans
Moving a MW for training S of Akwesasne, see barb camp and China spear+settler.
Conquer Edrine, kill 2 spears, loose 1 MW, no resistance -> Courthouse
Golden Age! Research at 40%, curr in 7t, +6gpt, TGlight now builds in 19t
Swap Allegheny and Tonawanda production, still galley in 3t, spear in 2t, but spear nearer S for new cities.

(read TheNemesis666 post about defenses near China)

IBT
Barb horse approach Izmit

310BC (2)
Rush temple in Oka. China could not attack it directly from his territory & cultural attack versus Nanking.
8 MW go in forest next to Istanbul.
curragh sees that Sea extends NE of Izmit (island near?)
MW disperses barb camp. Mil adviser says barbs near Edrine (The same camp that sent barb horse to Izmit I guest)
Found Gandasetaigon on oasis (only spot that will get us BG and whales) -> courthouse
upgrade 2 warriors to swordmen.

IBT
Salamanca: Settler->Settler
Niagara Falls: MW->lib
Oil Springs:Spear->Spear
Tonawanda:Spear->MW
Oka:Temple->courthouse

290BC (3)
Conquer Istanbul [dance] killing 3 spear & 1 archer, no losses, no resistance -> courthouse
Kill archer near Istanbul
mil advisor:barbs are now near Istanbul

IBT
Grand River:MW->lib
Allegheny:Galley->spear
Centralia:Worker->rax
Ottoman archer near Chondote.

270BC (4)
Move 5 MW near Iznik
Galley sees island S of Iznik
Move 2 MW near Chondote in case ottomans archer gets lucky.

IBT
Ottoman archer gets killed attacking Chondote
Oil Springs: spear->rax
St.Regis:Galley->lib
Tyendenaga:spear->spear
Chinese galley goes S, probably transporting another settler.

250BC (5)
Conquers Iznik with first attacking MW! 2 resisters->worker
3 MW deverted towards Uskudar, 1 MW towards Istanbul to go toward Bursa with MW healing in Istanbul.
2 MW arrives in Chondote to attack Uskudar in 2t.
Road to Caughnawaga & Oka finished.

IBT
Salamanca:settler->settler
Akwesasne:rax->spear

230BC(6)
science to 20%, currency still next turn.
Road to Gandasetaigon complete

IBT
China moves 2 settlers E
Ottoman warrior appear near Istanbul (What an incredible counterattack!)
Science:curr->const in 7t at 40%, +6gpt
Allegheny:spear->spear
Tonawanda:MW->MW
Mauch Chunk:MW->lib
Oka expands: Nanking is really squeezed!

210BC(7)
Conquer Uskudar killing 2 spears, no losses, 2 resisters -> courthouse
Founded Ganogeh->harbor
2 swords arrives in Caughnawaga for defense in case of an alliance.
Founded Gayagaahe->worker

IBT
Niagara Falls:lib->market
Resistance stops in Uskudar, rioting, set to starving mode.
2 ottoman warriors move out of Bursa

190BC (8)
Kill warrior near Istanbul
galley spots pink border S of eastern peninsula (french?)
moving 6 MW near Bursa

IBT
Oil Springs:rax->spear
Akwesasne:spear->spear
Tyendenaga:spear->spear

170BC (9)
Contact Scandinavia down CoL, Lit, 8 cities
Galley spots brown border (Carthage)
Conquer Bursa killing 3 spears, losing 1 MW and having first promotion to Elite! , no resisters->courthouse

IBT
2 Ottoman warrior move back toward Bursa
Salamanca: settler->settler
Allegheny: spear->market (unit cost is 76, will need money to support them when ga finishes)
Tonawanda: MW->market

150BC (10)
move 5 MW near Izmit spot barbs camp.
Kill 2 warriors near Bursa.
curraugh spots barb camp
Contact Carthage up mon & const, down CoL & Lit, 12 cities, ivory & silks. No deal since const researched in 3t.
Wonders: Carthage is constructing 5 wonders, Scandinavia 3.

Score:433

In my excitement, I left only one MW in Isnik. Now there are 2 warriors more, but there is still one resister.
Celts have 2 workers for sales right now, I will let the next player decide if he wants to buy them.
Carthage is very strong and building SoZ. I am guessing it is an emperor. The other is probably china or france.
I was moving my troops near Izmit in hope it would grow soon to size 2, but it did not. Consider diverting them to Antayla first.
We have competition for TGLighthouse, but we do not really need it anymore. What wonder could we build instead? Maybe ToA since we do not have many temples.
It should not be long, but Celts did not build a road to iron. We have enough MW left to attack them after Ottoman is eliminated (or peace treaty).


Have fun rrau!

 

[viper275]

Nice set of turns, good job with the war. I noticed 2 Chinese units in our territory, one a warrior. Osman's basically gone. It seems like China's the only thing stopping us from complete control over our continent which it looks like we can get soon (the Ottomans are crippled and the Celts are just plain weak until they get Gallic Swordsmen.) WW is lowered when your enemy is the aggressor, so now could be a chance to wipe out China before they get too far ahead if they are indeed one of the Emperor AIs. So I'm thinking tell the Chinese warrior(s) to get lost. If they declare war, the MWs about to take Izmit could grab Tatung and then Anyang if there's enough units left later. Before this but after China's at war with us, the Ottomans probably will give away some cities for peace. If we can protect them, they'll be safe, and the Ottomans can't get too big after what we've done to them (if they do we can attack them again.) However, China might be able to autoraze Uskudar, I don't know whether we cared that much about that city or not.

Of course Mao might just back down. In that case, we finish off the Ottomans and settle where they were. This is just a thought, I don't want to get into anything we can't handle, but it's an idea...

 

[King Alexander]

Nice turns, fbouthil.

One thing: just watch out for hapiness problems, and raise the lux slider if needed (or make taxmen, when you must raise the lux TOO MUCH).

We could try and finish the Ottos, if there are enough units in the front: don't leave our units inside their cities, if there's no visible danger(fear for culture flip).

If there are enough units in the front to qonquer the last Otto cities, don't send any more. Take our new units to our front with the Chinese, and when the war with the Ottos is over, bring back the excess units to join our force in the Chinese borders, and declare(if you want, you can move our units inside their borders, but do not attack that turn, we care about our reputation and possible trades with other civs. However, we can raze those cities that are too close to ours, so we leave them room to expand).
It doesn't matter if we don't take over all China: just take their half empire is enough!(if they do not have good resistance). China is next: better to strike them and reduce their cities, before they get their UU(Rider).

Suggestions?

 

[TheNemesis666]

the chinese warrior is probably a settler pair, i'd seen a chinese warrior and settler moving up and down our border there in my turns, looking back i forgot to note it.

 

[rrau]

got it

I do have a question though - if china refuses to remove their people from our territory, will us dow on them end our GA - I thought it did and ususally refrain from making declarations during GA. Of course, if I'm wrong, I would like to know about it.

so, the plan(s) depending on your answer to my ?:

Finish war with Osman maybe reduce him to 1 city and keep him around until age change and gift him into it for his free tech. Demand China remove her units and either she does, doesn't but doesn't dow, or dow on us. If she doesn't dow on us, dow on her (unless it will kill our GA)

I will try to play tonight after work.

 

[viper275]

I'm not sure about an epic game (although I'd assume it was the same) but yesterday on Napoleonic Europe I got a GA and had another civ declare war on me and I declared war on one so I don't think it gets rid of the GA.

If China has a warrior/settler pair they might just leave when we tell them to, since 1 warrior can't do too much damage and if it tried to attack anyone the settler is undefended.

I don't know what the Ottomans will give for peace (haven't looked at the save yet) but if they give Izmit and Aydin they're down to one city. If not but we want to destroy them, the stack of MWs attack Izmit, the 1 health point MWs defend Bursa, leaving the others to attack Antalya. Once we have spears defending Bursa the MWs can go attack Aydin along with any other MWs that are already in Ottoman land.

 

[King Alexander]

Better demand 1-2 cities from the Ottos, to see what they offer.
It's good to strike China soon, before our Ga ends(how many turns do we have on the GA?). Anyway, GA or not, let's strike them now that we're strong!

 

[fbouthil]

The chinese warrior is with a settler, so they will accept getting out of our territory if asked.

I have never experience a shorten ga. It started on my first turn, so it will end on the first turn of King Alexander (sorry Alex).

Osman would only give us Izmit for peace.

I suggest to take Izmit for peace and move the MW group to the chinese border before declaring war.

I think we should start thinking about where we want our FP. I was thinking about Uskudar or a little bit to the west.

The cities taken from Ottoman were set to courthouse, feel free to change that, especially if you plan on a FP close.