VQ06b - Emperor just win!

[Mutineer]

I look on save just to make some whitty comments.

1). You are running theocracy. I do not think you are in shape to fight anyone and actially in process of building infrastructure.
I think it will be a good idea to revolt to orgonised religion.
It was even better to revolt in last turns of war, as because of war wareness your productivity was lower anyway.

2) Many of your cities work less then optimum ties.

Like working 3 commerce cottage when 5 commerce dyes avalible or working grassland forest insted of 4 commerce cottage.

3) Many of your cities unhealthy, but you sell your only wheet to cyrus for 9 gp. May be it is better to sell ivory?

 

[Mutineer]

4). One more thinks, many of your cities have higth happiness reserve.
May be it is a good idea to grow them faster for a time?

 

[GreyFox]

I have look at the save ... and I must say I agre ewith Mutineer's expert advice. Though in our defense, theocracy is reasonable since we had just finished the war, and cottages need to be work on for it grow to towns ....

Agree on the wheat ... we need to get it back. We also need to pump up our culture to grab the clams and the sugar that are within our BFC back from JC.

This is my got it, but as usual, its too late for me to play now ... geez I am now UP on 3 SGs ... but I will definitely play tomorrow evening.

I am undecided on which victory to go to. But I like Armstrong's idea of selling Education ... might as well get something out from it. I am not too keen abt wasting the GE on feudalism though ... at least not before I see the effect of selling Education to Monty cheaply ...

 

[Cosmichail]

I think it will be a good idea to revolt to orgonised religion.

I think it might be good, however it is costly and gpt is what we do not have a whole lot of.

Agree on the wheat ... we need to get it back. We also need to pump up our culture to grab the clams and the sugar that are within our BFC back from JC.

Yes that's something we could switch now for the ivory. JC is trading dyes to us for deer maybe we could get horses instead.

But I like Armstrong's idea of selling Education ..

Let's do that and maybe Monty will lighten up towards us as he would be good for tech trading.

I am not too keen abt wasting the GE on feudalism though

I am a bit torn about this as we will even get to a wonder anyways??? I think we should get gunpowder soon for our UU and think about optics to find that other mystery civ. (yes I saw that in the Team alpha too.)

I think JC will strike one of these days to expand and since we are the weaker we will be the target. I could be wrong but in any of my SP games he always does that even if he is pleased. (usually by bribe though). So getting him to go after Cyrus might be a good idea. (I like Cyrus as he can be a good friend but we have to do what we have to do)

There is of course the difference how these AI's defend and build troops. JC tends to build large SOD whilst Cyrus is lighter on defense/troops and more a builder. If we go against Cyrus we definitely would need JC in on it as Cyrus might bribe him to go against us otherwise. The mutual struggle will aid in a PA down the road. So who knows JC as PA partner.

I realize Greyfox you aren't in favor of this approach but should we come across it I think we should try, otherwise just keep fighting.

I was surprised at the lack of fight in Khan overall. Maybe Armstrong/Greyfox received the brunt end of that and weakened him considerably by the time I got to him.

A shortlist:

1. Better to go after the strong one first right. Cyrus is getting way ahead of us and perhaps he is the better target but we will need a good strong army which we have in Ning Hsia. With our UU it might be better and perhaps wait for Grens/cannons. So domination? Militarily he has an advantage with horses probably knights.

1a: We should get some markets/harbors/universities/courthouses built first to improve our infrastructure. (EDIT)

2. Find the other mystery civ with Caravels to maximize tech trading.

3. Research path to next wonder for GE...Democracy or were you thinking of using him for a National wonder.

Mutineer keep lurking we get so wrapped in the heat of battle we forget about those little things like wheat. DOH

EDIT: one additional thought, it would be nice to capture Cyrus's shrine since he dominates 52% with Buddhism compared to the others which is miniscule. It would certainly solve our financial woes but again we would need a huge army.

 

[GreyFox]

First of all, apologize for delaying this a bit.

Second, >>>> the Save (AD1600) <<<<<. I played 9 turns to 1600AD, bring us to a good nice round number.

And now, the report.

First task is to re-distribute the troops ... did that. Checked.

Next is to cancel our deal with Cyrus .... did that, Checked.

Then is to cancel our dye deal with JC ... did that. Checked.

Following which is to check through our city and assign working tiles better ... did that. Checked.

Then, its trading time!

Jc is kind enough to supply us with horses ... he continues to be a good boy ... for now

Next is to execute armstrong's plan ... sell Education to Monty for a cheap cheap price of 300 ... Its the Great Singapore Sale.

Hmmm ... indeed, he turned from annoyed to Cautious. , armstrong.

So far so good.

And now that all that is out of the way, time for a revolution!

After which, its build this, build that, and pressing enter. I whipped New Sarai (its losing population anyway), and removed the Engineer from Karakorum once its border has popped. Alos traded heavily with Monty:

Soon, after some 100% deflicit research, we have this:

Time for another round of mad trading!!!!

First is to knock on JC's door ... asking for Gunpowder and Horseback Riding.

Nope, he doesn't want to give us two tech, and I settled for gunpowder.

Gunpowder! BUt ...

Uh-oh, we reached the WFYABTA limit. No wonder he doesn't want to give us 2 techs.

Nevemind, you want to stop tech-trading with me? Fine. I have a new trade partner -- Monty:

Nice, Feudalism and Optics. (Told you guys not to waste GE on Feudalism. Why waste the GE on a tech which everybody have?)

Then I knocked on HC ... hmm, he already have Printing Press ... but since I am at his door, might as well negotiate some trade as well:

-- To Be Continued --​

 

[GreyFox]

But then, our new trade partner starts to get b!tchy ...

Sh!t, I knew I should have try to trade him Gunpowder ASAP ... now he is annoyed after we refuse to cancel trade with Cyrus.

In retrospect, we only have OB with cyrus, so why did i not agree to cancel trad ewith cyrus? Hmm ... but cancelling will probably affect our relationship with Cyrus. Coupled with us trading wiith Cyrus's worst enemies, it may cause us to drop to pleased.

Anyway, as it turns out, the next turn Monty came demanding us to give him our map ... sure. Whatever you say, tough fella.

Heh, and our meekiness promote us to Cautious relatonship with Monty again ...

Well, without further ado, I sceure us the Gunpowder trade with Monty:

I think he refuses to give us the 30 gold ... but we got Guilds alright.

And you do know what is the significance of us getting guilds, right? Right? RIGHT?

Knights?

Nope, wrong answer. knights might be sweet, but I have another objective in mind for getting Guilds.

The Answer is:

That's right, with Feudalism and Guilds out of the way, our GE is now going to learn us Chemistry. Time for some massive CRI/II/III maceman upgrades to Grenies and start conquering Cyrus. Hopefully, none of the AI has Chemistry yet, then we can buy JC and Monty into a war with Cyrus.

--

Spoiler autolog :

Turn 221 (1555 AD)

IBT:

Turn 222 (1560 AD)
Karakorum's borders expand
New Sarai's borders expand
New Sarai finishes Theatre

IBT:

Turn 223 (1565 AD)
New Sarai begins building a Library
Corney Hills finishes Buddhist Temple
Okinawa grows to 9
Cuman's borders expand
Tabriz finishes Granary
Karakorum finishes Theatre

IBT:

Turn 224 (1570 AD)
Corney Hills begins building a Market
Tabriz begins building a Lighthouse
Karakorum begins building a Courthouse
Learn Printing Press
Corney Hills grows to 11
Copper City grows to 9
Turfan finishes Courthouse

IBT:

Turn 225 (1575 AD)
Start research on Gunpowder
Turfan begins building a Market
Learn Gunpowder
Start research on Chemistry
Learn Feudalism
Learn Optics
Paris finishes Courthouse

IBT:

Turn 226 (1580 AD)
Paris starts a Caravel
Okinawa finishes Library
Turfan grows to 6
Cuman grows to 8

IBT:

Turn 227 (1585 AD)
Okinawa begins building a Courthouse
New Sarai finishes Library

IBT:

Turn 228 (1590 AD)
New Sarai begins building a Courthouse
Paris equips a Caravel
Old Sarai grows to 9
Beshbalik grows to 10
Cuman finishes Harbor
Ning-hsia finishes Granary
Tabriz grows to 4
Karakorum grows to 12

IBT:

Turn 229 (1595 AD)
Learn Guilds
Paris starts a Caravel
Cuman begins building a Lighthouse
Ning-hsia begins building a Forge

IBT:

Turn 230 (1600 AD)

Roster
-- GreyFox == Massive Trade
-- namliaM == UP to learn us Chemistry and wreck the world!
-- armstrong == On Deck
-- eektor == should be back in pocket
-- cosmichail == patiently waiting for his turns to come up again

Once again, the save: >>>> 1600AD <<<<.

 

[Cosmichail]

Well done Greyfox, that's why I left the GE alone. Figured you would know what to do with him. Selling that Education sure helped. So we are on our way to battle again woooohoooo...

 

[armstrong]

Good show, man! That worked out better than I could have imagined! Thankfully Monty's aggression kept him on trading terms with us.

One thing I noticed is that we have another GP coming in in 8 turns. It's a 40% chance for a scientist... I think hiring two merchants instead of scientists might be a good idea - a merchant would let us upgrade a lot of our CR macers, and now trade missions are worth more beakers ultimately than burning GP's for techs.

I see two possibilities with the GE:

1. Research Chemistry. I just checked - if we heavily MM our cities for maximum commerce (including starvation in some cases, though no "deaths") we can get Chemistry in 1 turn. Absolutely no other civ - not even Cyrus - has Chemistry yet, so we're guaranteed of some nice trades for it, and maybe a declaration of war by JC on Cyrus (he's open to the idea, if the price is right.) That would be huge, though it might make Cyrus stronger in the long run (his power is quite a bit higher than JC's, though JC is no slouch.)

2. Finish researching Chemistry on our own in ~8 turns. Save the GE for a Gren-buildin' and Macer upgradin' golden age.

I leaning towards 1.

We haven't taken any diplomatic hits yet from either Cyrus or JC... hopefully we won't. It's entirely possible his most hated civ is the Mysterious Civilization.

As for our future tech path, if we could get Philosophy & Liberalism in trades, we could go Steel -> Scientific Method -> Communism. Steel is obvious, but the reason for Communism is that it lets you run State Property. I consider this the most important civic in the game. With it, you can turn any plains hill into a 1F4P tile, or any grassland into a 2F3P. That's as good as post-railroad mines/lumbermills, and you don't need forests or hills around. It would also save us 34 gpt (though that's more than offset by the loss of commerce the extra trade route of Free Market gives...)

There are also some other niceties with Communism (Spies, PA's, Kremlin.)

Being a dead-end tech, a beeline to Communism would probably have some trade value, too.

Of course, shooting straight up the military tree to Assembly Line after Steel might not be a bad idea at all, either. What do you all think? I'm not used to being this far behind in the tech game at this point in time, so it might not be the best idea

One more thing: we have tons of happiness now. We could sell our ivory to Cyrus for 13 gpt. That's not chump change

 

[Cosmichail]

Let's get the chemistry and trade to get us some tech parity.

Yes I agree getting to Communism fairly soon for the PA and state property. We should get points with JC for mutual struggle against Cyrus. That will count towards a PA down the road. What would be nice if we can get Persopolis for the shrine. Buddhism dominates 52% of the religion worldwide. Just imagine how much gpt Cyrus is getting from that. No wonder he is so far ahead tech wise. I think together with JC we could take him.

 

[namliaM]

OK got it... will try to pick up Chemistry ASAP (burning the GE) and will be building to my builders harts content... Tho I will try to line up some units too if we are allready planning for some waring... Like having some Olifanten lined up

Will probably play tomorrow (saturday) or early sunday....

 

[GreyFox]

I think we should burn the GE for Chemistry, and buy Monty + JC into war with Cyrus. Thereafter start building grenies ourselves, and 5 turns later, join the war (MUST TAKE THE HOLY CITY!).

Cyrus may be strong, but with 3 Civ attacking him? He doesn't stand a chance.

This also, as mentioned by the Dark Knight, win us the mutual struggle benefit with JC and Monty ... thus securing our diplo relationship with two of the more agressive Civs in this game (unless the Mysterious Civ turns out to be Alex).

Time for War, my friends! No builders turn for you, namliaM!

EDIT: I noiticed the option to sell ivory with Cyrus as well, but it is not too smart to give him elephants if we are going to fight hiim in the next turnset. And tempting as it might be to trade Chemistry for some very useful tech with Cyrus, don't. Not if we are going to fight him.

 

[Cosmichail]

EDIT: I noiticed the option to sell ivory with Cyrus as well, but it is not too smart to give him elephants if we are going to fight hiim in the next turnset. And tempting as it might be to trade Chemistry for some very useful tech with Cyrus, don't. Not if we are going to fight him.

Greyfox, anybody tell you that you are wise like a fox. Oh boy I like the sound of that. Let's start singing war songs.....

Our main objective will be the holy city, just think of the moola we will get out of that..........me is smiling....

With our experienced troops too, upgraded to grenies I can hardly hold my excitement. We stand to loose nothing since we aren't trading anything. A lot will depend on Julius but I am sure he is hungering for battle and more land.

Dark Knight chanting war songs now........What a backstab that will be to Cyrus MOHAAAAAAAAA

EDIT: Armstrong said too that we are like 8 turns from another GP. A Great Merchant would be nice to upgrade those experienced troops. So switching specialists in Besh from scientist to merchants sounds like a good idea. What's even better we have horsies now but we still don't have Horsebackriding yet. (which wouldn't take much to get so we can benefit from Guilds.) Something else I noticed we are no. 1 in land area but 5th in power which will change with upgrades/building grenadiers.

 

[eektor]

Well I just got in tonight and lost my luggage Tomorrow I'll try to catch up with the posts and the game so I'll be ready whenever I'm up. I didn't get free internet where I was staying and the price was a bit ridiculous to get it.

 

[Cosmichail]

Welcome back eektor just in time to get into the heat of things......

 

[GreyFox]

IMHO, the Great Merchant won't fetch us much money, unless we load him into a Caravel and send him to the other continent. Within our continent, I estimate the money fetched will be something like 1100 gold max, only enough to upgrade 5 maces.

Welcome back eektor! Where did you went for your holidays?

 

[Cosmichail]

We have a caravel soon, so if we could get a GM then take him for a trip to the new world and find that mystery civ all in the same move. Wouldn't that yield quite a bit more coin then. However considering, it is more likely we get another kind of great person anyways. Still chanting war songs......It would be nice to upgrade some of those maces with major xp, although with theocracy we could build some pretty decent grenies....

 

[armstrong]

Regarding a Great Merchant, we have a caravel being built to meet the Mystery Civilization. We could keep it in port until we see if we get a GM.

Even upgrading 5 macers isn't so bad. CR Gren's just eat up Rifles.

I don't see the harm in giving Cyrus ivory. I doubt he'd even build elephants since he has knights.

I don't know if Monty could hurt Cyrus. He has Astronomy, but who knows if he has any Galleons to send over. I'd rather get a tech from him...

Regarding trading Chem to Cyrus, if we don't, someone else will. He'll get it once we break our monopoly more than likely - might as well be us who benefits.

 

[Cosmichail]

Regarding trading Chem to Cyrus, if we don't, someone else will. He'll get it once we break our monopoly more than likely - might as well be us who benefits

That is an excellent point. This is something we have overlooked in emporer that techs move fast and he will get it as soon as we trade. Although Cyrus isn't friendly with HC or Monty but maybe the mystery civ???? We can get quite a bit for Chemistry from him but I personally (not unlearning monarch/prince ways hate giving a rival an advantage)

 

[GreyFox]

I beg to differ. Chemistry is a military tech. According to my plan, we will use Chemistry to bribe JC and Monty into a war with Cyrus. If so, JC and Monty definitely won't be trading Chemistry to Cyrus. Being agreesive personality, they would be unlikely to trade chemistry to other Civ which will in turn trade it to Cyrus as well.

Don't be too overly concenred with us being behind in tech ... if its is the warmonger path we are going after, trading Chemistry to Cyrus is, sorry for being blunt, stabbing ourselves on the toes. Once we cripple Cyrus and capture the Bud holy city, no one (unless the mystery civ is finanical, such as Mansa, Liz or Qin) would be able to match us in research power. Why worry abt tech trade now? Plus we would unlikely kill Cyrus in one go (the bfighting-brotehrs-in-faith-WW will stop us from doing that) ... whatever you can get from cyrus using Chemistry, I bet you we can get more from an eventual peace treaty.

--

 

[Cosmichail]

Again I too am leary about trading such a tech to a future rival. HC/Monty both dislike Cyrus so he won't get it that way and JC if convinced to war won't either leaving only the mystery civ. I vote for Greyfox's plan. JC/Monty will both have mutual struggle bonuses so let's go for it. Like you say we can extort more of him as we won't be able to do it in one go although getting the shrine in the first try would be nice.

Hey I don't like stabbing myself in the toe, rather do that to the enemy LOL and don't forget a good debate gets the brain matter going. Armstrong does make some good points.