VS1-Agression

[akots]

Nice discussion. However, I would strongly disagree on only one point - leaders/armies. They are extremely powerful in C3C with large attack, defense, pillage, healing and movement bonuses.

Other minor considerations: FP in Entremont may be a bit too far away for any substantial benefit to us. And since it is a huge map, I don't think we have enough cities to be able to build it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Second core concept is gone now from the game and we have to survive with the only core we have. However, with a leader, we can move Palace to a more central location after certain expansion. Since it is not a free Palace jump, I don't think it is an exploit.

Let's stick to RBC rules more or less avoiding exploits only. ICS is neither dastardly nor exploit according to RBC rules and our current position in the game does not allow a relaxed playing style. It is maximal aggression after all and playing honorable RBC game at DG means basically playing close to Sid or at least above Deity. We may win after all, but it should have been played extremely accurately.

With all other issues these is complete mutual understanding

 

[Commander Bello]

Sorry about joining the discussion that late...

For some reason, I don't get notifications for all threads to which I contributed. Unfortunately, this thread is one of them, so I have to do the update manually. Not nice, but now I know about it.

I will check the save as soon as I am finished with work.

One remark about your suggestions about how to move on (although I haven't studied the save yet):
During my games I found it to be wise and helpful to progress with my little empires as much, as warmongering allowed me to do. Most times, I have a third up to the half of my towns producing military units, while the others are doing things for development (you may see this as creating a strong war-economy).

 

[akots]

Let's vote what route we are going to take. I'm for mostly military with leader fishing and occasional research. Some ICs build in the core (limited) and AW-type production (rax+units+courthouses+markets).

I'm also forced to play today or to skip and am playing now. Since we did not vote yet, I'll try to be more or less consistent with both goals.

 

[Gengis Khan]

If we're deciding on goals for the future noones going to skip you, I would think that would be a priority rather then rushing through a set of turns without us deciding on what to do.

 

[Gengis Khan]

I am for 50/50 military/market-courthouse building.
Absolutly 0 ICS build, especially in the core.

 

[akots]

@GK:
You just had to ask nicely once. There is such a word as "please" in English. Since you prefer to be not so polite with the team members and it is my turns and my call, I will do what I think must be done. That is reason number 1 from what should not be discussed list.

 

[Gengis Khan]

What are you talking about? I stated a fact, and then an opinion on what I think should be done. I see no reason why "pretty please" was needed, or even where it would fit in. I think you're using that as a lame excuse to start your turn knowing you will get outvoted about putting ICS in the core & slam as many cities down as possible.

This game has been suffering from a lack of communication from the very beginning. We havn't been forming a long term strategy, asking others thoughts on our turns, or working together at all. When people start taking each turn as an individual and not a group, acting on impulse("I was bored"), and needlessly bickering back and forth(which I'm more then happy to take 50% of the blame for) losing is inevitable and only a matter of time.


How's this: Pretty, pretty please with a cherry on top don't take your turns till we reach an agreement & decide on our course of action.

 

[gormdragan]

Looking at the save, it doesn't strike me that we are at all in any bad shape, for the reasons below.

(1) We may be at war with many civs, but only one (the Celts) are actually in our targetting sights.

(2) There is a a lot of cities to settle, as we clean out the Celts, so ICS may not be necessary.

(3) This is a huge map with 16 civs, so technically, while we are weak compared to all the civs combined, we are not really very far off from the rest.

(4) Our lack of iron is both our bliss and our downfall, with swords and possibly knights, I am confident, we can crave an empire out off those we step on.

(5) From my somewhat limited experience with C3C, I found courthouse totally useless, and usually make use of civil engineers to combat corruption. Whether this is applicable, I guess there is room for debate.

(6) A good number of catapults, and later Trebuchets would actually enhance our combat capacity, which I think we are still lacking.

(7) Diplomatically speaking, I still think our borders are secure if we can regain and maintaint the friendship of the Japs and the Americans.

To be honest, my view are purely based on a single save view, so there may be things that were not obvious to me. In which case, please enlighten me. My 2 cents.

 

[akots]

@GK: I really appreciate your "please". Thanks. The turns were played and all discussion and whishes were carefully considered and most of them put into reality. To put it short, we had another leader and rushed HE with it. Third is on the way. We revolted and are now Monarchy, we settled 4 more cities without any ICS

Preflight. We are last in score, power, culture, and our country is in pathetic state. Land area, GNP, and productivity are not that bad, we are number 13-14. We have 5 warriors, 5 horsemen, 2 archers, 6 cats and 7 workers plus 14 NM, so purely defensive force. We have 11 cities. Which might be good for 1000BC but it is 30AD. Settler from Carthage goes to rebuild Camulodunum which is not on the river, btw. Carthage switched to settler as well as Theveste. We have enough population to support all units we have now. Built Embassy with America for 39g, Portugal (43g), Germany (123g). Can trade iron from America for furs. But not now, because Camulodunum can flip and this would ruin our rep which is the only good thing we have. Make peace with Hittites straight. Others ask about 17-20 gpt for peace. Make peace with Spain for 15g+6gpt. This would ruin their rep and make them out of next dogpile. Celts are ready to talk peace and will give us 2 cities which we would probably soon lose to somebody else. Overall the situation looks very unpleasant.

IBT. Henry comes and asks for alliance against Mursilis. America and Viking again make alliance against us! Iroquois land MDI in the vicinity of L magna.

[1] 50AD. Elite horse disposes of MDI. America moves a sword to Hippo. Since Celts are ready to talk peace, moving army and troops to American border.

[2] 70AD. America moves sword, MDI, and spear to attack L minor. IBT. Some more American troops advance and they land spear near L magna.

[3] [90AD. We defeat American spear and get our second great leader. Cadiz founded. This madness cannot continue for long. We have to make peace with somebody and make alliance with Japan against somebody. They are too scary to keep unallied. Buy peace from Viking for 19gpt+20g. otherwise it is looking like AW. IBT. More American troops move to L minor. More new wars. Guess we ruined all reputations badly.

[4] 110AD. Camulodunum abandoned, Citra founded, Mago rushes Heroic Epic there. IBT. More American troops move. HE complete.

[5] 130AD. Nora founded, building temple. Next turn we can more or less safely go to Monarchy. Killed some American swords and spear, 6 or 7. IBT. More American troops advance.

[6] 150AD. Killed 3 units. IBT. Lincoln does not give up and moves some more troops.

[7] 170AD. Three units killed. Revolting to Monarchy, 3 turns, not bad. We losing 44 gpt but will survive.

[8] 190AD. Some causalities on American side. IBT. Portugal allies with Theo against Japan. Lincoln moves two SOD but not very large (4-5 units). We can handle that.

[9] 210AD. Killed some more Americans. IBT. More Americans move in. We are now Carthaginian kingdom.

[10] 230AD. Killed 4 American units. We have about 8 or 9 elite victories since our second leader. Since we are in Monarchy, we are paying 12gpt for unit support and income is same as in Despotism (+29gpt). But peace deal with Germany will end in 6 turns. Made peace with Celts getting Monotheism for 90g in exchange. It is the only opportunity while they are still alive. Did not do any other diplo this turn. Defending L minor is easy. Just bombard with cats, kill undamaged units (if any) with army and finish damaged with horses. We are still last in score but power is increasing more or less steadily. We don’t have ICS as requested and since large part of the turns were in Anarchy, there was little to be produced except some horsemen.

Plans for the next turns may include settling of some Celtic lands while staying at peace. We might get iron from Japanese mountain and can try then to get a leader (which is on the way) and build a knight army. Then, raze Boston and some surrounding cities and resettle the area. Tech pace is not that bad considering that only few civilizations are building Leonardo’s and none Copernicus.

SAVE

 

[akots]

Originally posted by gormdragan
... (5) From my somewhat limited experience with C3C, I found courthouse totally useless, and usually make use of civil engineers to combat corruption. Whether this is applicable, I guess there is room for debate. ...

I completely agree with all other points. However, regarding courthouses, we must think of a possibility of flips. Courthouses greatly reduce probability of flipping of our border cities adjacent to Japan. Our culture is virtually zero and flips in this case should be considered as a real threat. They may also decrease corruption somewhat with low-shield cities increasing productivity from 2 spt to 3 spt in some of them.

Edited: some feedback from all players would be nice and we would be better off discussing what we would be doing next.

Again @GK: I take full responsibility for how I play the game and what I am doing and can explain every move. Regarding that early war with Henry, again note that his rep is ruined and Portugal (being in a perfect position at start) is not a major threat. I wish I met a Byzantine settler back then ... Though Theo is currently gracious... And the reason for failure of the game was indeed outlined by you extremely well. Well, the host is supposed to direct the discussion...

Edited for the second time: We need more cities, obviously. Capturing cities is not an option with our culture.

Roster:
1. Strider - in hospital. Vacant
2. Commander Bello
3. Gengis Khan
4. akots ----> Played
5. gormdragan --->UP
6. andvruss ----> ready

 

[Commander Bello]

Taking my first look to the new save, I would propose:

1) Distribution of workers should be improved. There is a worker mining east of Kagoshima, 1 is building a road between Sabratha and Utica (not needed), 3 slaves are working in the forests and fields next to Circa (currently size 1) and so on. But there has no road been build between Nora and Sabratha, so the former is unconnected yet.
2) Next question: why mining plains like at Cadiz? They should get irrigated, since they provide 1 shield anyway.
3) At Leptis Magna, I would propose building a harbor at some point of time. This will make LM our naval "powerhouse" and enable us to make use of the 3 fishes in the surroundings.
4) Rusadir would need some irrigation, since it will loose the currently irrigated tile to either Hippo or Leptis Minor in the future. A harbor there would make some sense as well, since there is a whale
5) W-W-NW of Nora is a Japanese city. This could make it difficult to gain and keep the iron N-NW of Nora (which we bitterly need)
6) Utica is completely ungarrisoned at the moment (??)
7) Sabratha is garrisoned with just one Archer. Both are not under direct threat, but may be reached within 2 turns by enemy mounted units through Celtic territory.
8) I would like to see an outpost on the mountain SW-SW of Hippo. This will give us some early warning chances against an American attack from that direction. The alternative would be to have a fortress on said mountain, which could be the gathering point for a later attack on American Faro
9) Talking about attacks, the logical targets would be Boston (to be razed and a new town build SE of it's current location); Faro and then Atlanta (this sequence would shorten the border and make some ressources accessable in the future)
10) At the moment, I see the main thread coming from the American border, since we can expect some other nations to send their troops through American territory.

Just 2 Euro-Cents.

 

[gormdragan]

Looking at the current save, here are some of my thoughts, most agreeing with Bello's post.

(1) We could probably use a revamp on our worker distribution and actions. I would lump our work force into work groups instead of have a lone slave chopping trees. Also we should only improve the number of squares each city can use of. Eg., we already have 6 improvement squares around Cirta, which is pop 1.

(2) Some MM could be good. I would switch Cathage and Hippo to settler factories. In the case of Hippo, we can create a tree-planting/chopping work group to aid in production (when we get engineering of course). As our horsemen are inferior to the MI, we should invest of cats, to even the odds.

(3) Since we are concern about flips, I say (as pointed out by Bello), we raze. Razing = more slaves = no need for local workers. Since we are industrious, our slaves work like non-industrious workers. Hence, we need to have a constant supply of settlers to take the razed land.

(4) As pointed out by Bello, I think the logical course of action is Boston. As a matter of fact, I think the key city to raze is Atlanta(iron). A 2nd iron source is good as insurance and can help us get back on track on the tech front. AI values resources tremendously.

(5) With regards to courthouses, it is my understanding that it helps fight propaganda (which only exist with epionage), so in what way does it fight flips? Pardon my ignorance, please enlighten me. An alternative is to build cheap warrior garrisons, which I think is an advantage we have that has not been taken advantage of. I would also create a buffer zone between our cities and AI's, like in the case between Celts and ourselves, with the Americans. As to the Japs, let's pray we don't get involved in any action with them. A two-front war is something we can ill afford. We could pile up warrior garrisons on Nippon-Cathage border towns.

(6) I think we are over-conservative on our naval defence, looking at the number of galleys off port. I say arrival from that front is probably sporatic and no more naval defence should be necessary.

(7) We need to strike on the Americans hard and force a peace with techs (maybe it's wishful thinking ). What really concerns me is fighting with inferior units. Looking at our tech front, we are no where near getting chivalry, I say we switch to swords strategy, again this is dependent on the group's opinion.

My 2 cents.

 

[akots]

@Bello:
1) Nora and Sabratha are being connected (two workers under a horse building road). Tree chopping is of no rush at present. We have more tiles improved than we can work with citizens (lack of ICS in the core).
2) We are already in Monarchy, so mining plains is good. We can always irrigate some non-bonus grassland to get more growth if needed. And later on in the game (Idustrial age+Steam Power), we can irrigate these plains. Again, since there is no ICS or dense build in the core, there is no need to irrigate the plains unless terrain dictates otherwise.
3) to 5) Agree.
6) There is no immediate threat and no need for MP in Utica.
7) These towns can be easily defended "dynamically" with horsemen from nearby towns. Which was done a couple of times.
8) A NM was recently moved from the mountain where he was scouting the area. All attacks so far came for out most eastern city.
9) We are not ready for large offense. It would be nice to have knights and knight army for that. There is just not enough unit support and not enough manpower. So far in the preceding 10 turns, we have lost 1 unit (NM I think) and killed about 25-30 American units. But still they are coming and coming. Fortunately, they don't have horses.
10) It is quite possible.

@GD:
1) This may be good but we may lose some worker turns this way. Also note that tiles around Citra were already improved (by Celts as well). Since we are industrious, combining workers in teams is not always a better choice.
2) - 4) Agree completely.
5) This is slightly unclear and looks like courthouses reduce flipping chance as well. But I won't bet my right hand on that. Anarres was testing it and it seemed to work somehow. Courthouses are very useful in cities with about 50% (40-60%) corruption and decrease corruption in these cities by about 20% at least. Keeping Japan at peace is a top priority. They are very powerful and would have Samurai soon. We might want to sign MA with them against a third party to prevent them from sneak attacks.
6) - 7) Getting techs is a top priority. Building some warriors for upgrade is an option but having knights versus MDI is a better option IMHO. We can afford horsemen and cannot afford too many units. With 3 luxuries there is little need for MP yet since our cities are mostly small.

 

[gormdragan]

We are not even researching. With no cash, or tech to trade, how are we planning to get feudalism, and chivalry? I estimate at least 40 turns we before we even see our 1st knight. I would go for swords for the fact that those can be only in about 4 turns time. It is not a matter of being able to afford to build horse. It's having horseman vs MI or pike which bothers me. We will not have good odds if we stick to horse. This is really up to the group, though doing the warrior-to-sword-to-MI-to-guerilla does not really strike me as a bad choice in anyway.

 

[akots]

Please keep in mind we are 1 turn out of Anarchy. If we can make the ends meet, then swords might be a good choice. For now, we cannot afford to keep substantially higher military due to the low number of cities. Hope you would be able to add at least 3 or 4 new. However, our income can be invested in buying techs. We'll have a peace deal with Germany expiring soon (about 20gpt) and our reputation is crystal clear. We can afford a large gpt payment for some warmongering faraway AI with techs. It would not be a surprise if that particular AI declares war to us before we pay the full balance off. It might be tricky to set up though.

At a certain point, since our size is small, we would be able to trade furs for iron. But this requires great caution to keep our reputation intact. Or get iron from that Japanese mountain. And, IMHO, we are not ready for major offense. DG AI is amost Deity and all our neighbors are very powerful (American and Japan). Also, since it is maximal aggression, AI tends to extort some gold from us if we have some cash at hand. Each time we have something like 200-300 gold, some Russians or Vikings come and demand to pay them 50-70-90 gold. That is why accumulating cash for 1-turn upgrade of all units would be difficult.

 

[gormdragan]

Preturn: (in c3c 1.15)

Cycle through our cities to MM, with the following changes.
Leptis Magna to harbor.
Oea to rax.
Nora to war.
Cirta to war.
Rusaddir to war.
Leptis Minor to war.

Removed horse garrison from Leptis Magna to Leptis Minor.
Removed horse escort from Nora worker force.
Removed war garrison from Cathage to Nora.
Removed archer garrison from Sabratha to swap with extra Numec at Kagoshima.

I stopped all non-essential worker actions to better optimise our workers, man, they are in a mess!!! We have a bonus food square (the wine) which is not worked!!!!

My plan is

(a) to fill Nora, Kagoshima and Oea with tons of wars to fight flip. I am not convinced that courthouse works.

(b) to have at least 1 Numec per border city, namely, Nora*, Kagoshima*, Oea*, Sabratha, Cirta*, Hippo and Leptis Minor*. (*cities have Numecs already).

(c) to switch Cathage and Theveste to settler production after the next horse.

BTW, I made a mistake on my comments earlier, I thought those galleys were ours.

Press Enter.

IBT:
Scandi and Portugal signed peace.
Celts and Scandi signed MA against Iroq, Celts at war with Iroq!!!

Inca wants peace for 8g +5gpt, i say no, note Incas has longb.

Inca and Jap signed peace.

Greeks start SunTze.

250:
Cirta makes war, starts war.

Cadiz switch from rax to cat. Since we need cats and cats don't benefit from rax, I am saving cadiz from the rax and build only cats.
Cathage, Utica and Theveste switch to cats too.

Elite horse kills MI without a scratch (thanks to cats). I cannot emphasise the importance of cats when we have inferior units.

Use Hippo as field hospital and save ourselves from building an extra rax at Leptis Minor.

260:
Cathage makes cat, starts horse. This is to time our growth with our settler production.
Cirta makes war, starts war. !!!!!!!! We put our Heroic Epic on a border city??? That's risky. Especially when this city is not under culture pressure.
Theveste makes cat, starts settler. MM Cathage to give Theveste the mined grassland and use the mountain (We were producing 5fpt with 6food to fill, so I drop to 3fpt with no penalty).
Theveste will grow and produce on the same turn.
Rusicade makes horse, starts horse.
Cadiz makes cat, starts cat.

Jap worker trying to road the iron west of Kagoshima. Haha, Thanks a lot!!! It's going to be ours next turn.

Will tackle the American SOD (3MI+1archer) now.
Bombardment redlines 2 MI and yellows 1 MI. Time for the kill, and hopefully some GLs.
Elite horse retreats to MI.
Elite horse kills MI.
Elite horse kills archer.
Elite horse kills MI.
Elite horse kills MI.

Moved an extra Numec in Leptis Minor to occupy the mountain SW-SW from Hippo, for picket role.

After playing my first 2 turns of the game, I think we are in excellent position. We have 3 native luxuries (with 2 spare), a native horse and 2 close-by iron resources. I can't see why we are lamenting at all.

Since there are 16 civs, I see the logic of not researching and either getting tech @last (or near last) by buying, or by war. Good strategy!!!

IBT:
Germany wants to renew peace, I agree. I would kiss your Nazi ass for peace.

Hittites and Celts signed MA against the Spanish.

Babylonians started Knight Templar.

5MI, 4spears and 2 archers amass south of Leptis Minor, 1 spear at West of Hippo. American galley appear near Rusaddir. I am putting a horse to shadow the galley in case it lands something nasty.

Our borders covers the jap iron, as i predicted.

270:
Utica makes cat, starts cat (raxless).
Leptis Magna makes harbor, starts marketplace (notice I am improving LMag, it has 3 fishes and 1 cow, huge potential. Not to be wasted on making troops)
Sabratha makes horse, starts horse.
I spotted an all-important road to be build south of Rusaddir. We should keep note of such shortcuts for our troops.

Let's clear out our aggressors.

Bomdardment yellows 2spear and 2MI.
Elite horse kills MI.
Elite horse dies to spear.
Vet horse kills MI and promotes.
Vet horse retreats from spear.
Elite horse kills spear.
Elite horse kills spear.

Cat bombards american galley.

Wow!!!! We got a 2nd source of horse!!! Now how can we say we are in bad shape. Imagine those civs without horse and/or iron. What's the use of having the techs if they can't build the advanced units. No wonder I see so many longb moving around.

IBT:
Oh no, Japs landed a longb/spear pair beside Theveste, I fear the worst. I am going to get ROP from the Japs, so if they atack us, they get a rep hit.

Haha, the dmged galley (from our cat bombardment, fled from our waters).

Byzantine makes Sun Tze.

Russians building Leo.

Russian building Sistine.

Spanish building Sistine.

Spanish building Templar.

Spanish building Leo.

280:
Get ROP from Jap for 1g. Oh no, Japs have iron, which means....SAMURAIS!!!! We are in deep trouble. We can get an alliance with Japs for all our g (147g) and 23gpt.

This is an important point of the game. We have 147g and 47gpt.

What do the rest of the team think about allying with the Japs?

I have attached the save for your reference and this is my 2 cents. We are in no position to fight samurais and especially not a 2 front war that is so far apart. I would vote for the alliance. Just as an insurance, I would change to all gpt (31gpt) MA in case he breaks his word. In the meantime, we can get our iron online. With iron, and some swords (with attack value of 3)+cats, we may stand a chance against sams. horse and Numecs? I don't think so.


The Save

 

[akots]

Yes, this is of grave danger. Make all deals possible with Japan. Alliance against America or against something else, re-negotiate peace, gift them a luxury, but by all means try to avoid war with Japan. We are in no position to fight and looks like they have their orders to attack us. If they do, there is little possibility to recover. RoP does not help against these attacks since AI does not care much about the reputation. Alliance against third party is usually very effective... Good luck!

 

[Gengis Khan]

We're all lamanting because we can't get a Domination Vic by 500ad.

The only lux we have an extra of is furs, which they already have. Japan don't have any surplus cash that we can get for gpt, nor do we have enough money for any of his techs. From my brief scroll through Japan is at war with at least 4 other Civs(and that's only the ones we're not at war with).

I think the RoP, and keeping the cities thier troops are close to defended will suffice. However, just to be safe you might want to sign them up to an alliance. I'd increase the gpt a bit so if they cop out early we'll get a break.

 

[gormdragan]

Ok...then alliance, with Tokugawa against Lincoln.

 

[gormdragan]

280: (continued)
Allied with Japs against Americans for 31gpt.

I kept 2 horse+1war shadowing longb and spear pair, just in case.

Bombardment redlines 1MI and yellows 1MI.
Elite horse kills MI.
Elite horse kills MI and we get a MGL. I make an army (though I would have preferred to rush a marketplace), as per Akots orders.

Elite horse kills MI and we get another MGL!!!!! Wow wow wow!!! I make another army.

Moved workers to road our extra wine and horse, comodities for tech trading.

IBT:
1st Samurai appears at our borders.
longb/spear pair heading for Americans. So are the Jap galleys. The alliance IMHO is the right choice.

Our people want a pentagon, I will rush if I get another MGL.

Vikings, Incas, Babylon building templar.

Vikings, Americans,Japs building Leo.

Incas building Sistine.

Vikings completed Templar at Trondheim.

Russians building Co-Ob.

290:
Cathage makes horse, starts war (to time growth and production for settler).
Hippo makes horse starts cat.
Leptis Minor makes war, starts war.

We add a palace section.

I tried to try our spare horse, wine and fur for some tech, but they are still to expensive. Well we need to be patient.

Elite horse kills vet spear, but redlines.

Bombardments redlines 2MI and 1longb.
Vet horse dies to MI.
Vet horse kills MI.
Vet horse kills MI.
Elite horse kills longb, and we get yet another MGL!!!!!

Rusaddi makes war next turn, so I will rush a pentagon after that.

Numec army moves beside Boston, he only has spears (lack of iron). Americans are deadmeat.

SOD of 1 Numec Army, 5horse, 3cat laying siege to Boston.

IBT:
Germans and Byzantines signed MA against American.

Russians completed Leo at Yaroslavl.

300:
Cathage makes war, starts settler (grow and produce in sync).
Theveste makes settler, starts horse.
Nora makes war, starts war.
Rusaddir makes war, starts pentagon, MGL rushed pentagon.

Bombardment redlines 2MI, yellows 1MI and 1longb.
Vet horse kills MI.
Vet horse kills Mi.
Vet horse dies to MI.
Vet horse kills MI, promotes.

IBT:
Portugal and Greece signed peace.Germany and Celts signed peace too.

Vikings,iroq,byzantines, japs building Sistine.

Byzantines, Inca building Co Ob

310:
Oea makes rax, starts horse.
Utica makes cat, starts cat.
Rusicade makes horse, starts horse.

Pentagon completed in Rusaddir. starts war.

Bombardment yellows 2MI and 1longb. (less cats available, half moved onto SOD adjacent to Boston).

Vet horse kills MI.
Vet archer kills longb.
Vet horse kills MI.

To be concluded.