VS1-Agression

[akots]

Sleep well, Bello, these things happen. Actually, building culture in border cities does not help that much against the flips. Sometimes, it is the opposite. You get cultural border extension and then the city is exposed to flipping chances because it gets overlapping tiles within the 21-tile area of the enemy (ally) city.

Flips just happen and we have to live with them. I used scientific approach (flip calculator) and it looked like we needed to garrison Oea with approximately 30 to 45 military units to reduce the risk of flipping down to zero. Our five units reduced it by 2%. However, probability of the flip was not very high, roughly about 15% to 25% (for 10 turns) whereas in Kagoshima it was over 25% approaching 30-35%. It is just that cursed pRNG. Somebody gets 5 leaders in 10 turns and somebody gets a flip, alas. This is the beauty of the game. We'll fight the pRNG with armies and get our beloved Oea back very soon.

IMHO, fighting with flips is very costly. We just have to live with them, accept them, and kill them all in their own time. The way this game develops, there was little possibility to build any culture.

 

[Commander Bello]

Ok... back at home <sigh> and continuing....

Everyone's on board?

 

[Commander Bello]

<return>

IBT

Germany and Portugal signed against Japs
Japs and Celts made peace (this should ruin Japs reputation, shouldn't it?)

AmKnight kills vetHorse W of Saldae
AmGalley still heading north

JapGalleys => north to JapShores

Carthage: finishes Sword, stays on Sword
Cirta: finishes Rax => NumMerc (Heroic Epic in town, so no need for temple at the moment)
Kagoshima: finishes NumMerc => Market. NumMerc sent to Sabratha
Leptis Magna: finishes Settler => Aqueduct
Leptis Minor: finishes Cat => Temple

For the moment, we are building just 1 Cat. We have 20 of them, however.

Turn 8 (430 AD)
Carthago Novo founded SW-SW-SW-W of Hippo, adjacent to hidden Jap town and N-NW-NW of German Faro => Temple. Garrison: 2 NumMercs
We spot 2 PortArchers

Settler/NumMerc combo from Leptis Magna S-S-S

Checking diplomacy:
Polite Japs could trade comm with Mayas for wines or 45 gold. Declined
They would trade Republic or Engineering for horrendouos amounts of gpt/lump gold and wine. Declined.

Polite Scandinavia would trade comm with Mayas for 50 gold.
Republic for 60 gpt + 285 gold. Declined
No Feudalism, Engineering, Theology tradeable.

Polite Greece would trade Republic for horrendous gold. Declined
No Feudalism, Engineering, Theology tradeable.

Polite Germans would trade comms with Maya for wines or 45 gold.The four techs are just too expansive. All deals declined.

Polite Byzantines would trade like the Germans. All deals declined

Annoyed Spanish would trade Feudalism for wines, horses and 30 gpt.

Polite Portuguese demand too much for the techs. They don't know about the Mayas, yet.

Theoratically, I'd like the idea to get comms with the Mayas from the Spanish to turn them polite, then to broker comms to the Ports and to try to get a good deal based on horses with the Spanish. But Spain is just on the other side of the continent, with our trading routes running through (at least) Germany and Byzantine. One of them makes war, and our reputation is in the sewer.

And even if we would get Feudalism, we couldn't afford to upgrade our horses, since we need that gold to rush improvements. Our best 2 cities (Sabratha with a net of 12 shields and Carthage with a net of 10 shields) would need 6 and 7 turns for knights. This averages into 1 knight every 4 turns.

No. Keep on pressing on the Americans and hope to get a good peace with them.

For all the temples: I decided to rush them not prior to half of the building queue being filled with shields. Everything else would become to expensive.

Cities for temples to be built in:
Nora (currently 14 turns)
Rusicade (currently 6 turns)
Sabratha (Celtic Entremont already extended its borders 4 tiles towards Sab. If Celts are going to build another town there, we are in trouble again - except for Portugal, in regards to culture everybody is strong compared with us)

3rd Horse Army
Pillage, and S of Washington, pillage and spot 2 Incense
San Francisco is an AmHarbor. With pillaging in the next turn, the Americans will loose their trades dependant on Incense.

1st NumMerc Army (S of Saldae)
With 13 Cats => hill W of St. Louis.

Uncle Sam would give Engineering and comms with the Maya for peace. I decide to stay at war. After the loss of St. Louis and Washington, he might be willing to give Feudalism.

Switched Sabratha to Settler (1 turn), who will arrive in 7 turns at current Washington site. This should be compliant with our military approach.

End of turn

Plans:
Red dots: New St.Louis and New Washington
Yellow: Attack paths.

 

[Commander Bello]

<return>

IBT
Hittites request audience. Granted. They want peace for currency. They have just 7 cities (capital & Tarsus, Ugarit, Hattusha, Tyrana, Aleppo, Kadesh). Not accepted.

AmKnight attacks Saldae, gets red and retreats towards Washington.
AmArcher heads from Washington towards Saldae.

Utica finishes NumMerc. Stays on NumMerc.
Theveste finishes Horse. Stays on Horse.
Hippo finishes NumMerc. Stays on NumMerc.
Sabratha finishes Settler. Switches to NumMerc.

Byzantines start on JS Bach's Cathedral. They like the 5th symphony, I guess. I like the 5th av, as well

Turn 9 (440 AD)
3 Cats arrive at Sulcis to join 2nd NumMerc Army

3rd Horse Army spots, that San Francisco has fallen to the Vikings!!!

Made empty army of Hamilcar in Leptis Minor (this should enable us to get other MGLs)

3rd Horse Army
Pillage Incense, move north, spot AmSpear => SanFran, pillage, kills AmSpear
Seattle & Denver area almost disconnected from main American territory.

1st NumMerc Army
11 Cats bombard St.Louis, redlining 2 AmPikes and 1 AmSpear.
EliteHorse attacks AmSpike and kills him, getting red.
EliteHorse attacks AmSpike and kills him.
1st NumMerc Army kills remaining spear and razes St.Louis for 5 workers and a cat. Heads back to hill

Saldae garrison
VetHorse attacks AmArcher and gets redlined for 1 point of damage.
VetHorse attacks AmArcher, redlining it, but killed
VetHorse attacks AmArcher and kills it.

2nd NumMerc Army
Moves along attack path and kills redlined AmKnight.

Uncle Sam would offer peace, theology and 6 gold now.
We negotiate and he would offer peace for Feudalism and comms with the Maya, getting 210 gold from us. I decline. After the fall of Washington, the American territory will be split and most probably we will get Feudalism for peace. At least for better conditions.

Worker gang at Saldae => SW on forest chopping
Worker gang at Leptis Minor starts irrigation.
NumMerc @Leptis Minor => Sulcis
Sword @Rusaddir => Sulcis
Settler/NumMerc combo at Rusadir => Leptis Minor
NumMerc @Hippo => Leptis Minor
Worker gang between Hippo and Carthago Nove starts irrigation on bonus grass (to be mined later) for CarthNovo
Settler @ Sabratha => Utica
Worker gang north of Nora start mining of iron.
NumMerc @Utica joins Settler
NumMerc @Hippo => Leptis Minor


Summary:
We have 16 cities
We have killed 04 units
We have lost 01 units
We have razed 01 city.
We have gained 06 units (5 slaves, 1 cat)
Unit count: 2 Settlers, 7 native workers , 17 Warriors. 2 Archers, 2 Swords, 10 Horse, 20 Cats, 4 Armies (1st: 3 NumMerc, 2nd: 3 NumMerc, 3rd 4 Horse, 4th empty) 10 NumMerc [Horses and NumMercs in armies subtracted from unit listing]
Income: +55 gpt, Fuedalism in 35

Plans:
no changes yet. Build New St. Louis in proposed spot. Attack, conquer, raze Washington, squeeze Abe for Feudalism. Build New Washington at proposed spot.

End of turn

 

[Gengis Khan]

I beleive that puts it on andvruss.

 

[Gengis Khan]

I beleive that puts it on andvruss.

 

[Commander Bello]

Last turn.

The save:

<return>

IBT
Russians request audience. They want peace for 300 gold. Ahmm... no, thx, madam

Spain declares war on Celts
Iroquois and Germans ally vs America

Rio de Janeiro (American) has been captured by the Germans.

Byzantines are building JS Bach's cathredral.

Begin of turn 10 (450 AD)
3rd Horse Army spots Viking Galley sail to San Francisco.
AmLongbowman heads towards Washington. This seems to be an indication that the American have no iron anymore.

Worker gang @Sulcis starts chopping for temple.

NumMerc and Sword arrive at Sulcis.
2 NumMerc @Leptis Minor => Saldae.
Worker gang @Carthago Novo starts chopping for temple.
Settler combo @Utica => Cirta
Worker gang @Cirta => hills west of Cirta for roading (attack lane against Celts) and mining afterwards.
NumMerc @Sabratha => Rusicade
Rushed temple @Rusicade for 128 gold
Worker gang @Kagoshima starts chopping for market.
Horse @Theveste => Cadiz

3rd Horse Army
pillages last road towards disconneted Seattle & Denver area
and moves towards Washington
Abe offers peace, Theology, 10 Gold and 2 gpt.
We negotiate and would get peace and Feudalism for 75 gold. We decline, since we want to get Chicago in the west as well, thus getting access to the fertile areas there and blocking further German advances.

Yellow Horse => Saldae for recovery

1st NumMerc Army
Fortifies

2 NumMerc Army
Fortifies

Summary of turn 10
We killed: nobody
We lost: 0 units
We have 16 cities
Unit count: 2 Settlers, 7 native workers, 29 slave workers, 17 Warriors, 2 Archers, 2 Swords, 10 Horse, 21 Cats (1 slave), 4 Armies (1st NumMerc: 3, 2nd NumMerc: 3, 3rd Horse: 4, 4th: empty), 10 NumMercs
Income: +55 gold, Feudalism in 34

Summary of my turns:
The Americans have been broken. Atlanta and St. Louis have been razed for slaves and space for expansion. 3 towns have been founded, 1 town has been lost due to cultural flipping.
We have successfully crossed the northern desert belt and pushed back the Americans. This is due to the fact that the players prior to my moves left me a lot of units. Thanks for that. This campaign wouldn't have been possible without that.

end of turn

Plans:
Get and raze Washington, get and raze Chicago, squeeze Abe for peace (Feudalism and Theology), build cities at locations as shown below.

 

[Commander Bello]

Sorry, I just noticed that my remarks "end of turn" might have been confusing.
Anyway, I am done.

It's up to Andvruss. Good luck!

 

[akots]

Roster:
1. Strider - in hospital. Vacant
2. Commander Bello ----> just played
3. Gengis Khan -----> get ready
4. akots ---->
5. gormdragan --->
6. andvruss ----> UP

@andvruss: Please post "Got it" within 24 hours and you have 48 hours to play the turns. It would be nice to discuss what you are going to do but this is up to you.

IMHO, America would never give both Feudalism and Theology for peace. It is a huge map with huge tech values. But we can try that in practice.

 

[Gengis Khan]

I disagree, nothing like forcing the AI to capitol jump to bring them to the bargaining table. Besides it's not that valuble to them, it's only a first tier Middle Ages tech(although a mandatory, Wonder one but still).

I either missed what's going on in the northern front or it wasn't mentioned much?

 

[Commander Bello]

Well, I agree that we may not get Feudalism AND Theology. But we should get Feudalism in any case to improve our military, and get as much as we can besides it.

Furthermore: as the incident with the AmGalley has shown, our "core" isn't very safe, yet. The best of our cities are located at the shore, and lack good defenders. This is due to our slow production rate and the necessity to improve our military at the battle theatres as well.
This was the reason for me to switch Leptis Magna to aqueduct. We need to improve the size of our productive cities.
I would suggest to concentrate on a group of 4 - 5 cities, which have to be massively improved. By that, I mean that 3-4 of them would be producing units, while 1-2 would get improvements. So, we could cirlcle around between them. As soon as one has finished an improvement, it would switch to units, freeing another one to start on improvements, and so on.

Furthermore, I would propose not to build anymore *defensive* armies. Those armies have a speed of just 2, which still is more than the cats. So, the armies do not make use of their speed. But they inhalate the defenders, we bitterly need in our border towns. So, those armies are almost like a sitting duck.. no, like a sitting elephant.
Cats on the march may very well be guarded by 3 NumMercs - they all have the same speed. As soon as a new town has been founded, the Mercs will become the garrison for it.

Offensive armies (with horses, that is) are quick and (still) are deadly to our enemies. We can make use of them to quickly invade enemy territory and put havoc on our enemies supply lines or take out single enemy reinforcements. Then, as the cat-groups approach enemy cities, they are quick enough to go back and meet those for the final attack.

Just my two Euro-cents.

 

[Gengis Khan]

I agree that we're pretty well stocked on the Numids armies, but I disagree on the horseman armies. A horseman army against pikemen is a wasted army, if it's lucky it gets to attack once then runs back to a city to heal. Plus it's an army that we actually have to walk along with defensive units due to it's dismal D rating and Knights being in the field, that turns that 3 movement into a 1.

 

[Commander Bello]

Originally posted by Gengis Khan

I either missed what's going on in the northern front or it wasn't mentioned much?

On the northern front - for the moment - everything is quiet. But we have to keep in mind that the ROP with the Japs will extend in 2 turns.
After that, we should be very careful.
Personally, I wouldn't trust the Japs farther than I could throw a Cat... ;-)

Some fortresses in the north might be of value.

 

[Commander Bello]

Originally posted by Gengis Khan
I agree that we're pretty well stocked on the Numids armies, but I disagree on the horseman armies. A horseman army against pikemen is a wasted army, if it's lucky it gets to attack once then runs back to a city to heal. Plus it's an army that we actually have to walk along with defensive units due to it's dismal D rating and Knights being in the field, that turns that 3 movement into a 1.

GK, sorry, but I can't agree to all of your statements.

I agree that our units are completely weak. Our horsemen with an attack of 2 aren't very impressive, even not if taking the army bonus into account.
Nevertheless, to the best of my knowledge, the AI is very reluctant to attack unharmed armies.
This gives us the chance to use the rather speedy 3rd army to go around and to pillage, thus limiting our enemy's options more and more. I agree, though, that as soon as it has lost some health points, it has to go back for quick recovery.
But, hey, that is, how the situation is.
Our only advantages against the AI are the better tactical understanding of the combined arms (defended cats and attackers) and to have the quickest unit with the most hitpoints, yet available.

But, I think that this shouldn't be so important for the moment. Washington and Chicago we should get without any bigger problem. This will end the American war for the moment.
After we have secured the American front, we should go after the Celts, as I see it by now. They are already under pressure and won't have the chance to confront us with too many or too good defenders. And they occupy good terrain, which could help us.
If we were able to capture Entremont, I would even think about keeping it unrazed (the more as it holds two GWs) and to protect it by a belt of small cities against cultural flip. Furthermore, getting Entremont would disable the Japs to combine their territories, as they still have a town south of Entremont. With a little bit of luck, this would steer their military efforts versus the Byzantines to the west, lowering the potential pressure upon our territory.

We have to get Fuedalism and then either race for Chivalry or Invention (for better attack units). Chivalry has the charme of giving us Knights, while we have to take into account that it is just a dead-end tech. Invention would lead us further on the tech-path and the attackers provided by it are much cheaper than the Knights.
In the later case I indeed see army groups consisting of a defensive army and an offensive Longbowmen army, accompanied by some 10 cats for each army group.

 

[steviejay]

lurker's comment:
sorry had to comment. the AI WILL attack an army, full strength if they have an advantage. I've seen Infantry attack my Conquistador Army before (much swearing ensured let me tell you, Fresh Army, just out the box, send it into enemy territory, lasts a turn, doh)

Thats all I have to stay. Good Luck!

 

[Commander Bello]

In that case we should just skip Chivalry. Although I like to crush AIs with Knight-armies.
But we are that much behind, that we shouldn't go for any dead-end techs.

 

[akots]

With Chivalry and a few 4-knight armies (we need 3 or 4 of these), we might be in a good position to capture Great Library for a single turn thus catching up in techs. Knight armies are good even against riflemen. We are so much behind, it would be very painful to buy or trade or extort all the techs. And Byzantines may be close to Industrial Age if not already there. We'll know soon when they start on Universal Suffrage... Extortion works best for short wars. Raze 4-5 cities, get a tech. Then, rinse and continue with another AI. Pressing hard on a single AI does not give you that much except for pure satisfaction that "we got them". Focused effort in one direction might become futile at a certain point because this ignores other splendid opportunities.

@andvruss ----> You're UP here, please post something. We need you to play your turns and get this game moving!

 

[Gengis Khan]

Wow, I think your drastically overestimating the AI tech pace. They've been at war with nearly everyone, alliances apon alliance since the beggining of the game. On my turns(what? 20-30 turns ago?) the AIs were just hitting Theo & Fued. The GL snag is a good idea we should gun for in a bit after we lock our area down, all depends on who has it & how far away it is.

 

[Commander Bello]

Well, at the the moment we would have those Knight armies, the AI for sure would be way ahead!
At the moment, we don't have:
Fuedalism
Chivalry.
Then we need some time to get the Knights. After that, we need some turns to put pressure on an AI....

So, we can expect 30 turns to go by before we can make an AI give us something due to our proposed knights armies.

What will be crucial, is to get a common decision what to do after Fuedalism. Either we go for Chivalry => Knights armies, or we go for
Medieval Infantry and Longbowmen... .That is something, we should get clear about...

 

[andvruss]

Oh, I didn't say got it? Will try to post partial turn log today then.