[C3C] WAC Mod Beta Test Discussion

[tjs282]

I might consider a defender's only target, however, most human stacks consist of offensive units.

In the epic game at least, this really only applies when the human has access to fast (M>1), powerful units (compared to the AI) such as Knights, Cavs or Tanks (or UU-equivalents), which -- crucially -- have the ability both to retreat during combat if losing against M=1 (defensive) units, and also to run to friendly city to heal, either via friendly roads (which triple movement speed), and/or over hostile-but-flat terrain which doesn't restrict all movement to one tile per turn regardless of M-value. This allows units to be 'recycled', thus a smaller total army can still fight effectively.

But in this Mod, all units are essentially 'slow', since a unit with M>1 pitted against another unit with M>1, will never retreat if losing -- and even if it wins its fight, it cannot escape to heal due to the high movement-cost of the terrains.

So the 'smart' thing for a human to do (or at least, what I tried to do, which might not be the same thing!) would rather be to build a combined-arms stack(s) consisting of (fast) attackers, defenders, and bombardment units. Problem is, of course, that due to the Imp's Stealth-attacking abilities, the rebels' (my) stacks can't actually get anywhere, and still be useful on arrival...

Pisidia is meant to be a key place of target for the AI, as a strategic resource is placed under that spot to provide a reason for the AI to take control of it.

The Imps made no effective moves against Pisidia in my game to date (although that will likely change in the near future!).

They did initially make some aggressive forays against Leucet, but eventually lost interest due to the stack of bombardment units and defenders I placed there. It was shortly afterwards that they started hammering Matallim (the city, misread the name earlier) instead...

To know more about your situation to consider changes, what was your turn number that you experienced this? and when did Metelim collapse?

I was surprised to note that my (posted) save was/is actually only Turn 22. Matallim had fallen 3 or 4 turns before that, IIRC.

On topic:

If you don't want to nerf the Imps (which is fair enough, it's your mod after all), then another possibility might be to make an SP-version of the .biq which doesn't require (Strategic) resource-trading, by putting all the essential Strat-resources on both halves of the rebel-held area. That way, the human player doesn't have to worry (so much) about defending that trade-route in addition to their cities (because the AI doesn't recognise the importance of keeping that road open itself).

The AI also doesn't send Workers into harm's way while at war, nor does it particularly care about breaking deals -- so it won't prioritise adequately defending its excess Strat-res from pillaging. I actually had to send a Royal Garrison + Worker into Metelim myself, to road + Fortress the nearest Traun-resource to Pisidia, just to ensure that they could supply it to me. Not that it did me much good, of course, because the Imps killed the first defensive stack I'd installed in the Hill-Fortress, and pillaged the road under it shortly afterwards. And although I did regain the Hill-tile, I lost a lot of units doing so, and couldn't hold it long enough to get a Worker up there: I lost it (along with a stack of 8 Ballistae) again after Matallim fell -- and only then did the Imps attack and pillage 'my' Traun!

Strat-res are also generally more valuable to the AI than Luxes, so Astracet is at a trading disadvantage right from the off (just because we're Allies, doesn't mean the Metellim will give me mates' rates on their goods!). Putting, say, 2 different Lux in each territory might be a 'fairer' way of encouraging (Lux-)trading between the rebel sides, without crippling both if trading becomes impossible (which it probably will!).

Even without resource-trading though, a solo-player would still be required to aid their AI-partner, since (presumably) the Locked Alliance means that the game will end in defeat if either of the rebel capitals is captured (and the associated king-unit killed)?

 

[Nathiri]

In the epic game at least, this really only applies when the human has access to fast (M>1), powerful units (compared to the AI) such as Knights, Cavs or Tanks (or UU-equivalents), which -- crucially -- have the ability both to retreat during combat if losing against M=1 (defensive) units, and also to run to friendly city to heal, either via friendly roads (which triple movement speed), and/or over hostile-but-flat terrain which doesn't restrict all movement to one tile per turn regardless of M-value. This allows units to be 'recycled', thus a smaller total army can still fight effectively.

But in this Mod, all units are essentially 'slow', since a unit with M>1 pitted against another unit with M>1, will never retreat if losing -- and even if it wins its fight, it cannot escape to heal due to the high movement-cost of the terrains.

So the 'smart' thing for a human to do (or at least, what I tried to do, which might not be the same thing!) would rather be to build a combined-arms stack(s) consisting of (fast) attackers, defenders, and bombardment units. Problem is, of course, that due to the Imp's Stealth-attacking abilities, the rebels' (my) stacks can't actually get anywhere, and still be useful on arrival...
The Imps made no effective moves against Pisidia in my game to date (although that will likely change in the near future!).

They did initially make some aggressive forays against Leucet, but eventually lost interest due to the stack of bombardment units and defenders I placed there. It was shortly afterwards that they started hammering Matallim (the city, misread the name earlier) instead...I was surprised to note that my (posted) save was/is actually only Turn 22. Matallim had fallen 3 or 4 turns before that, IIRC.

On topic:

If you don't want to nerf the Imps (which is fair enough, it's your mod after all), then another possibility might be to make an SP-version of the .biq which doesn't require (Strategic) resource-trading, by putting all the essential Strat-resources on both halves of the rebel-held area. That way, the human player doesn't have to worry (so much) about defending that trade-route in addition to their cities (because the AI doesn't recognise the importance of keeping that road open itself).

The AI also doesn't send Workers into harm's way while at war, nor does it particularly care about breaking deals -- so it won't prioritise adequately defending its excess Strat-res from pillaging. I actually had to send a Royal Garrison + Worker into Metelim myself, to road + Fortress the nearest Traun-resource to Pisidia, just to ensure that they could supply it to me. Not that it did me much good, of course, because the Imps killed the first defensive stack I'd installed in the Hill-Fortress, and pillaged the road under it shortly afterwards. And although I did regain the Hill-tile, I lost a lot of units doing so, and couldn't hold it long enough to get a Worker up there: I lost it (along with a stack of 8 Ballistae) again after Matallim fell -- and only then did the Imps attack and pillage 'my' Traun!

Strat-res are also generally more valuable to the AI than Luxes, so Astracet is at a trading disadvantage right from the off (just because we're Allies, doesn't mean the Metellim will give me mates' rates on their goods!). Putting, say, 2 different Lux in each territory might be a 'fairer' way of encouraging (Lux-)trading between the rebel sides, without crippling both if trading becomes impossible (which it probably will!).

Even without resource-trading though, a solo-player would still be required to aid their AI-partner, since (presumably) the Locked Alliance means that the game will end in defeat if either of the rebel capitals is captured (and the associated king-unit killed)?

Hmm, I see your point. Thanks for your input and for continuing to play tjs (or rather persevere? )!

 

[Takhisis]

(presumably) the Locked Alliance means that the game will end in defeat if either of the rebel capitals is captured (and the associated king-unit killed)?

Nnnnope. Remember the Firaxis-made Fall of Rome scenario. In it we had two allied halves of the Roman Empire, and if either lost ten cities it would immediately collapse. But the other half would be left standing.

 

[Nathiri]

Alright so I've decided to nerf the OP Imperials some.

Since the internet was down because of the power outage of Zeta, I reloaded a save I was working on a couple months ago and it was in a bad state . I had two decent stacks rolling through my territory that I had to just let them do whatever and I was getting bombarded on my coastline from ships. After they passed Neydda, they stopped (probably because I put all workers on the coast in my cities) and went back and took Neydda and then have started backtracking to Fort Vye.

I'm happy and frustrated at the same time. I wanted them to be a force to be reckoned with, but it is frustrating to have them rolling through your territory like that when you've already lost several stacks to them so you just let them take whatever they want, whenever they decide to do it. This screenshot was late 20s. I had a good economy built, but I managed to get the Imperials to attack me rather than pursue Metelim, and I gradually fell apart. A small victory came when I sacrificed a militia unit to regain 4 ballistas that the AI had left defenseless but my military was scattered, as I was unwilling to commit units that could be in the range of the Imperial units to try and get reinforcements to the danger cities.

 

[Nathiri]

Here's an update I worked on today, since I couldnt work on my homework because of my internet . My internet just came back to a better speed this evening. It has been slow and constantly crashing all day.

Beta 1.1
Complete Download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WzoinJM3x1b-_5JZB433RDOapFmgsFX9/view?usp=sharing (Updated OP too)
Only BIQ, text files, and academy images: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ItbOe-gkY6GBuKJxCWIkk42YSl8lgO5B/view?usp=sharing

.ZIPs are designed for drag and drop of files if wanted.

-Added new city improvement: Academy - Boosts science output by 50% with no city maintenance.
-Split some civilopedia entries and added a description to several that had none. (Shipwreck, Lookout Tower, Palace of Alemeth/Deneb etc)
-Reduced Imperials' Infantry units' offense. Affects Raonassian Inf offense by 2, Imperial and Mountain Infantry by 1. (Basically all at 5 offense now, equals Royal Guard's defense of 5).
-Reduced Precision Attack for Infantry units to only Royal Guard and other Infantry units. It is noted in the pedia entry of that unit. Siege Tower is left unchanged in regards to this and can precision attack any unit.
-Increased city size 2 limit to 10 population. Capital can continuously grow above.
-Added Lethal Bombard mention on ship units pedia.
-Other, not sure, but shouldnt be anything big.

Have not currently fixed the Blizzard's pedia image background because the unit was packaged for download that way, likely because of the whiteness of the unit itself (most pedia backgrounds tend to be white). I could probably put one together with a different background but have not taken the time to do that.

 

[CorvusFortis]

Finally, got to have a game. Got crushed about turn 45, playing as Metelim, because Astracet was destroyed. Difficulty level - Monarch. I wanted to go for turn 100 victory, but wasn't able to defend an ally. I was barely hoding the invasion, but my position was relatively safe. I spamed ballista/onager workshops and defence towers to autoproduce artillery and archers. I stacked them in the camp north of Matallim. Empire kept assaulting my position and got bombarded to death. I was finishing off their troops, sacrificing archers. Didn't use cavalry or footmen much, because they are too easy to go down and not autoproduced like archers. I felt very confident about my position, but there was no way I could help my ally. And, to be fair, I don't even know how I could to. Everything is very slow in terms of both movemen and production and holding off imperial troops takes a lot of effort.

Anyway, I will try better next time. Probably, rush for gold and trebuchets would be a better idea.

I can say, that the scenario is really well made. I can see, how much work you put into it. I like the concept of defending against superior enemy and it is executed pretty well. Also loved the tricks with weather attacks. Forest camps idea is also fun - at last, I was massively planting forests. But it looks like the scenario will onl shine in MP which I do not have access to right now.

The gameplay midgame appeared a bit repetative to me, but it is more of civ3 general problem than the scenario. And the strategy I chose too. I was just sitting and shooting, which didn't help at all in the end. Going to try different things next time. Imperial unit graphics appeared a bit boring to me - just the same variation of legionaries. At least, I had some cavalry and war machines. I understand, that that's a matter of taste and also for balance reasons too, but, personaly, I would like to see some more imperial unit flavors.

I also missed the lore descriptions of some units. Empire doesn't get civilopedia entry at all and all imperial infantry share the same description. I really would like to know how and why they were organized (and I always liked your universe in general).

I am not familiar enough with the scenario yet, so I won't be suggesting any balance fixes for now. I have to get a couple more games. So far I like what I see. Wish you best luck with the development!

 

[Nathiri]

Finally, got to have a game. Got crushed about turn 45, playing as Metelim, because Astracet was destroyed. Difficulty level - Monarch. I wanted to go for turn 100 victory, but wasn't able to defend an ally. I was barely hoding the invasion, but my position was relatively safe. I spamed ballista/onager workshops and defence towers to autoproduce artillery and archers. I stacked them in the camp north of Matallim. Empire kept assaulting my position and got bombarded to death. I was finishing off their troops, sacrificing archers. Didn't use cavalry or footmen much, because they are too easy to go down and not autoproduced like archers. I felt very confident about my position, but there was no way I could help my ally. And, to be fair, I don't even know how I could to. Everything is very slow in terms of both movemen and production and holding off imperial troops takes a lot of effort.

Anyway, I will try better next time. Probably, rush for gold and trebuchets would be a better idea.

I can say, that the scenario is really well made. I can see, how much work you put into it. I like the concept of defending against superior enemy and it is executed pretty well. Also loved the tricks with weather attacks. Forest camps idea is also fun - at last, I was massively planting forests. But it looks like the scenario will onl shine in MP which I do not have access to right now.

The gameplay midgame appeared a bit repetative to me, but it is more of civ3 general problem than the scenario. And the strategy I chose too. I was just sitting and shooting, which didn't help at all in the end. Going to try different things next time. Imperial unit graphics appeared a bit boring to me - just the same variation of legionaries. At least, I had some cavalry and war machines. I understand, that that's a matter of taste and also for balance reasons too, but, personaly, I would like to see some more imperial unit flavors.

I also missed the lore descriptions of some units. Empire doesn't get civilopedia entry at all and all imperial infantry share the same description. I really would like to know how and why they were organized (and I always liked your universe in general).

I am not familiar enough with the scenario yet, so I won't be suggesting any balance fixes for now. I have to get a couple more games. So far I like what I see. Wish you best luck with the development!

Thanks so much for your post Fortis! I didn't expect to see this when I got home and I really appreciate your time to play it. I'm glad there's still some interest in this mod.

You are right about unit flavor and lore. I didn't expand too much in this case and I should. I wouldnt say the same units are for balance reasons if you are just talking about appearance. That's just laziness on my part. As I mentioned previously to another, I cloned several entries to save time as I didnt initially plan on expanding it as much as I did.

It is a little repetitive as it is just about survival, but me and one of my first testers were also just constantly surprised at the amount of depth in just figuring out the most optimized way to play to give us the best advantage. Figuring out the tile yields and what to prioritize in terms of military make-up and how hard do we push economy was a tough battle. Economy is important as the amount of times you might need emergency units is alot or maybe you want to rush a few buildings. All this takes preparation and planning. I found this part of the mod very engaging. The amount of challenge for SP is overwhelming though and it is what I wanted to an extent, but it definitely needs more balance for fairness. I'm reluctant to do certain tweaks because it might remove what is good about the mod which is why I do need a lot of testing.

Another thing I was going to have in the mod is Multiple Units Per Tile graphics to aid the type of warfare aspect I was wanting, which was what would look like big battles taking place. But the guy doing the conversions for me only did half of the ones I wanted and stopped without saying anything so I didnt end up using them.

 

[Nathiri]

Resurrect!

A few weeks ago my mind turned to modding again. I had this one and another project sitting around. Got another civ player and we went into this one coop again and he successfully took Beream as Metelim at turn 36 with 100 units after only 4 and a half hours (one sitting). Definitely a grind there. I was besieging Thamah at the same time with Astracet but had to divert reinforcements when the AI dropped 20 units on my eastern coast (naval drops start after turn 30). So all that is working as intended. At the end, Metelim was -60 something in the hole with all their units until they lost some in the attack. I passed gold to keep them afloat but obviously he could have just gone negative and lost a few things. I was still producing +100 per turn at the end but not much to invest it in at the time as I switched to focusing on cheap units.

An issue he had not being able to pick up the nobleman so have to look into that. But that's a win anyway since he took the city. We also were close to achieving the attrition requirement for entire civ as coalition.

AI acted a little different and not quite as strong in some ways. That may be because we played on a previous patch last time or just the AI choices this time around. I give them the tools to be a menace but that requires them to be relentless and sometimes they choose not to be . When I had them 24/7 menace it was impossible to play.

 

[Ozymandias]

Phirst! ... subscription post

Ditto!

 

[timerover51]

I have downloaded it and will look at the biq file first. Generally, if Oz and Takhisis like something, it is pretty good.

 

[Ozymandias]

I have downloaded it and will look at the biq file first. Generally, if Oz and Takhisis like something, it is pretty good.