Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)

[BornInCantaloup]

@BiC Looks interesting. No chock again?

Thanks, although, as you say: no choke. I suspect I've been too passive already. e.g. I've let China settle very far south, on a spot that should be ours.
I sort of wanted to choke but I couldn't force myself into investing the early hammers into military. Then the opportunity/timing was lost.
On the plus side, I've got a woodsman 3 warrior that stole 2 workers and pillaged a couple roads. Little gain, sure

Great Lighthouse seemed like a better choice before settling all those inland cities. Denial value is fine, though. I guess it will pay off over time.

 

[bhavv]

Whoops, I've been playing the Warlock game after picking it up on the steam game and forgot to update my progress.

I played up to 1000 AD, but havnt played anymore of this game for a few days now:

Spoiler :

 

[GKey]

@BiC In fact China capital surrounded by forests is just prefect for worker steal. I compared my save and Snaaty's: around 1000 BC we both had 11 workers with only 1 built. How many coastal cities you expect to have?

 

[GKey]

1200 AD

Spoiler :

Economic is driven by UoS+Spiral and Versales just been built on this turn.
527 BPT before Mercantilism (got it last turn, did not switch yet). The plan is to tech Philo and start GA - then switch into Merc, CS, Pacifism and milk some GS for academies. Not sure if it worth delaying Merc for 3 turns.

Cities work unimproved tiles, 33 workers not enough with such conquest + REX...

Opinions regarding delaying Merc for 3 turns?

 

[Thrar]

In the screenshot, it looks like with some tile and slider adjustment you can get Philo in 1 turn. Then start the GA and switch right away.
Where is the 3 turn delay coming from?

 

[GKey]

Well I have researched it last turn, so yeah Philo in 1 turn makes it 2 turns delay not 3, my bad.

Then I start GA, switch civics and BUM !

Spoiler :

Edu in 2 turns?

1260 BPT 1210 AD! Just few turns before that I barely could get 250 beakers per turn.

 

[Snaaty]

@ gkey:

some random things after looking at your screens and reading about your progress:

1. i did build 2 or even 3 workers myself in my game (before first settler ) to speed up early-game chopping. i also lost both woodies between 1000 BC and 500 BC, so you did a lot better in workerstealing then i did (got 6-7 only earlygame, if i remember right, rest only after capturing them with the cities)

2. forget about the academies. try to get the gps for another ga instead. with all settled and cottaged it´s a bigger and, more important, a faster boost of your economy

3. at the highest point of my research curve (and in a ga), i managed to get a bit over 2900 beakers without loosing money (and over 4000 at 100% research). was around 1350 AD with the invasion already in full operation but without cities on the other continent comming out of revolt and therefore without colonial upkeep (and smethod delayed). so i guess with full focus on commerce and without going for invasion 3500 beakers might be doable (at least in a ga).
after smethod, oversea-upkeep and without ga, my research stabilized around 1700 beakers, droppinig only slowly due to more upkeep comming each turn...

4. go for the taj

5. go for sol (forge, org + bureau and you should get it in around 15 turns in capital)

6. you should have built the wonder that speeds up worker-improvements

7. i started hating micro along the process of settling 250.000 cities, and at a certain point simply stopped it (was even thinking about automation workers to be honest) and put all cities to chainproduce cavallry or ships... ...how about you?

...

edith adds:

about my game, i´m struggeling right now a bit with motivation, reached 1510? AD and 6 % are missing for the dom.limit, all bigger enemy stacks are destroyed already (from all remaining nations, around 150 units in stacks in total, losses around 20-30 units on wang´s side) so it´s all down to moving a lot of units around and hitting buttons...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BiC In fact China capital surrounded by forests is just prefect for worker steal. I compared my save and Snaaty's: around 1000 BC we both had 11 workers with only 1 built. How many coastal cities you expect to have?

Well, I expect to restart Old habits die hard.

 

[GKey]

1430 AD, Civics switch.

Before:

Spoiler :

After:

Spoiler :

Proves again how ridiculously overpowered State Property is. Almost no change in commerce while HUGE gain in production. I can only regret I cottaged all that jungle rather then farm/Workshop it. Game will be over long before these cottages mature.

And I don't see any reason to research Democracy, btw. SoL would give me what ~130 beakers? Will not make any difference, I'd rather get 6-8 more cavalry from these 750 hammers.

I doubt cottages + US would be stronger. If you go for space ship may be. Then you have enough time for cottages to grow up.

 

[ben-jammin]

GKey, looks to me like you can finish philo in one turn in that screenshot, why would you need to wait 3 turns for the civic switch? Edit: sorry this was already mentioned.

With so many tiles worked I would do some quick and dirty math and really see if an academy is as strong as saving for another golden age.

 

[Htadus]

I saw this thread last week and I will finally have a few hours this week and would like to get to the prince level goal; 1AD. I wonder if it is possible to do without the whip.

Initial thoughts

Spoiler :

are that this continent will slowdown while the other continent will advance unless they are in war too. So no early religions for us to promote AI getting their own different religions. Then aim for Christianity via GP bulb or Confu via direct learning for OR or Pacifism.

The plan is to settle on Stone, build a worker first and head toward AH fast; so it should be via Hunting and it will help us get Archery. Then Masonry for GWall and then head toward getting MC from the Oracle. The plan is to build the SH as well as the Mids in the capital to get, ideally, at least 1GE, 2GP and GSpy early on the game. That way I can bulb Theo for AP, Machinery and part bulb CS with the second GP by avoiding Monarchy. GSpy is obviously for tech stealing.

Do I want to go HBR route or Construction? Not sure yet. But I intend to use 2 nearest AI for worker stealing and thereby making them backwards. I think as of right now I am inclining toward construction and hwacha and any other unit combo. Maces sounds good.

So how did it go? Well I thought you'll never ask. First thing was to open the file under Buffy since I need all the help I can get.

Spoiler :

Settled on the stone and started a worker and headed to AH. It was followed by the wheel, BW, Masonary, Aggriculture and towards Priesthood with the hope of building the Oracle.

Worker mined the gold and waited to complet AH and then built 2 pastures before building a bunch of roads.

The original warrior went south and then headed NW for about 7 turns. Finding no one turned east-northeast eventually found Chinese border. By that time all 3 AI were met and I went on the business of worker/settler theft. My second warrior eventually found Alexanders border and his adventures were quickly ended by two Greek archers. Damn. I forgot Alex is not very bashful. Well I send another warrior again to end up dead but this time by a chariot. Hmmm. He has horses but no copper so far at 1500BC's.

At size 5, grew while building a barracks, the capital finished a settler and started the GW after Masonary. The second city was to North on the jungle hill with corn and copper in the BFC. The city was already connected when founded and chopped 3 forsts into the Mids for failed gold. Needed the 4th forest to complet an emergency spear to defend the third city. The third city was to southwest of Chinese capital as a magnet city. It has pigs, wheat, 1 flood plain and horses in its BFC. 4th claimed the gold, corn and pig site to west.

Capital meanwhile built the SH and nearly completed Oracle and has 7 turns to finish the Mids when I stopped for the day. So far all the chops where used for stone based Wonders. There is a GP sitting around for me to learn Mono in order to bulb Theology. Damn, I just realized that I am teching CoL right now but should be learning Alpha to steal IW/Math from China.

Both support cities will build libs and run 2 scientist while AI keep increasing the GG points for me. The frst was settled in the capital. I may build my first wall ever in Civ4....may. Damn, I forgot archery.

Last but not the least, I have built 1 worker but have 9 total. Mostly chinese workers but 3 of them being settlers, yes china only has 2 cities total. In 950BC 2 spears and a chariot is 3 turns from Greek border on a keep down/pillage mission. And a spear is heading out to replace the W2 warrior that just died in China. Will not pillage any cottage based improvements since I need them later. That's it for now. Oh yeah, a few turns later we switch to Rep and slavery

 

[GKey]

Definitely need some motivation to win this...

1615 AD, every turn takes like 15 min with tedious working management and moving armies back and force.

Spoiler :

.67 % missing from domination. OK! I capture 4 cities in this turn, press end turn button and win!

1:

Spoiler :

2:

Spoiler :

3:

Spoiler :

4 (End of Pacal)

Spoiler :

Ohh last time give orders to workers and press button:



Are you fricking kidding me?!

Spoiler :

61.61%



Really lots of motivation required just to not delete civ from hard disk at this very moment.

Next turn, finally...

Spoiler :

Have to admit, despite been out of Rep/Merc, not having SoL and whipping/drafting non stop tech rate grow steadily.

Host of the next AW map please make sure there is no ivory nearby. All this elepult thingy pretty much kills AW aspect of the game.

 

[Grashopa]

Awesome GKey, thanks for all screens and write up.

 

[GKey]

Thanks! I haven't made writeup this time, though! This format is sooooo time consuming.

 

[Doshin]

Congrats, GKey!

Regarding the Ivory...

Spoiler :

I chose a start that didn't have Ivory right on our doorstep, but clearly maintenance costs are low enough on Immortal (compared to Deity, at least) that it didn't really matter. Of course, some players (Tachywaxon, Shakabrade) just attacked with HAs...

More generally speaking, it seems difficult to maintain a balance between a challenging and unfair map for the AW format. Stone or Marble within reach makes things easier. The tropical climate makes things easier. Having two continents is easier. But if you just roll a random, albeit generous Pangaea start (let's say Gold/Wet Corn in the capital's BFC) the AI will simply crush you when they reach Guilds or Rifling. I left tech trading on, but since you, Snaaty, Grashopa (et al.) were self-teching Education in two turns, that didn't really hurt.

For the next one, I'd personally like to see a Global Highlands script without too much additional help for the player. I think this start has proven that it's entirely possible to cripple two, maybe even three Immortal AIs by choking. But what if the player has to face six AIs, all of which have sufficient space in which to expand, and enough trading partners to limit the effectiveness of a prolonged HA/Elephant/Treb war?

 

[Snaaty]

@ doshin:

whatever you do, dont make the map to big (standard sized continents / pangea is the max. most players will accept to handle. please dont even add low sealevel) because else nobody will finish the game (just imagining 80 cities instead of 50 makes me want to throw my laptop out of the window)

if you are looking for a nice aw format with all ai on 1 continent, use pangea, tropical, natural shoreline (gives a pangea map with lots of peninsulas and a few islands). but thinking of it, removing the need to tech a bit, most experienced players will simply rush more ais on immortal and gain even more advantages, so 2 continents, normal climate, average starting land, no phants, no stone/marble seems most interesting, at least to me)

...

edith adds:
btw, will post my writeup shortly

 

[vranasm]

global highlands is a chore... I guess you would have to go to small or less size with more AI's...

these type of maps can be good for space race games, but other then that...they are just too annoying most of the time.

 

[Snaaty]

uhg... ...i finished also.

in the end i used cheesy raze and resettle to get there faster and raised the culture slider for instant borderpops (and automated workers, thats why i dont have oil connected)

endpic in spoiler...

Spoiler :

View attachment 340456

1525 it was in the end. if i would have razed and resettled a bit earlier (same with culture slider, it could have been even a few turns faster)

 

[Htadus]

Finally found some time to advance my game.

Picking up from last save. I was able to get MC with the Oracle.

Chinese:

Spoiler :

Then I got a break when IBT Qin placed his archer right in front of my spear heading to replaced the W2 warrior who captured about 7-8 workers. When he killed the archer, he was promoted to W2 and immediately began adding to the worker collection and thereby kept China down to 2 cities. About 6 more workers by 1AD. All my espy was set on Chinese

Greeks:

Spoiler :

The 2 spear and 1 chariot pillage team made Alex's life miserable. Alex was my biggest concern in this game and knew that he need to be controlled or he will go into unit production like crazy. So the team managed to pillage many farms, mines and the horses. Since I did not know IW for the longest time, I was not aware of the iron he had near his Marble city and later in the jungle city. So he managed to build a single phalanx and kill the chariot but the spear killed the damaged phalanx and locate the plains iron and pillage it. He has 6 cities and been loosing many chariots to Korean Pillage team.

Germans:

Spoiler :

Well they were allowed to do all they wanted only because I just could not get any units there but they sent about 3 different stacks and attacked the blocking city. They almost captured it once. It was down to 1 damaged spear and a warrior. But luckily reinforcement got there for the next turn and he removed the wounded back to china. Good thing it was not Alex.

Techs:

Spoiler :

After Alpha, the tech path headed to Construction, followed by techs needed to bulb Theology. First GP was a prophet and bulbed Theo and founded Christianity. The second GP should have been another Prophet but got a GE and he bulbed nearly entire cost of Machinary and with some luck got a GPro as the 3rd GP. He bulbed all but 3 turns of CS. Now we can build maces and Ai are fairly backwards. Stole IW and fishing from Chinese and switched espy points to Germans.

Empire:

Spoiler :

Slowly managed to expand the empire to 10 cities and had gems and elephants online. I have a feeling some of my cities will be considered to be poor choices by others but I have a habit of doing odd things. Like not whipping much. The blocking city did most of the whipping and some other cities whipped a few settlers and granaries as needed. I was delaying the completion of HG until the 10th city was founded and ended up looking the wonder by 1 turn. The turn added to allow the settler to found the City. Oh well got nearly 220 gold from that fail for 100+ hammer spent. Not the worst thing but would have liked to have the wonder.

Plan for next set:

Spoiler :

When I find time, next set will get rid of Greeks and the Chinese from the game. There are 3 cities that is ready to go on the war production mode and have several Hawachas ready to roll. It will be a 2 front war and will be fairly quick. Prime target is he Chines capital with all its forests to build the AP and then to finish him off to create a new front for the German stacks. A the second team will head to Greece and workers are roading toward Greece. Hope to find some time to play.

 

[grabblaka]

Hi, this looks like a really interesting game. My 1st time trying an AW game at such a level, trying it out after reading the spoilers. I'm wondering how people steal so many workers in the early game. In my game, I managed to get a w2 warrior early and stole 1 worker from Qin. I then pillaged his rice and parked my w2 warrior on a hill outside his BFC, but he just continued to build archers, and would only send his next worker out (at ~t30-40) escorted by an archer. Should I just use the warrior to continue exploring/look for other workers to steal, or try to choke Qin as much as possible?