1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

War AI is so terrible

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Klik17, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Linklite

    Linklite Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2019
    Messages:
    214
    Gender:
    Male
    It does make sense when you think about it.
    Civ AI is basically a giant set of if... Then... Statements, from what I've read on here. By that I mean it has a set of rules and follows them, making it predictable and therefore also there being an optimal strategy to defeat it. Play Civ enough and eventually you'll find that optimal strategy (or one of several).

    The people who post here are more likely to be the type to play Civ a lot, and therefore
    1) more likely to be skilled than your average Civ player/owner.
    2) more likely to have found an optimal strategy than your average Civ player/owner.

    They're probably right in that they find Deity easy, but that's probably just because they've played more than your average Joe and probably have found an optimal strategy, even if they don't realise it. If you want some evidence, notice how many have a build order or have a set way of playing. I'm still new to the game (my copy is out of action until they fix a bug) and I have a far less pre determined order to how I do things because I haven't found an optimal strategy.
     
    civxander and Depravo like this.
  2. japanesesamurai

    japanesesamurai Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2019
    Messages:
    174
    Gender:
    Male
    beating deity and having to fight a poor combat AI are two different things.
    although not entirely...
    the ai will sometimes "murder each other". and a victory on immortal-deity could end up being braindead easy. Because of poor combat skills and decision making (usually conflicting agenda's) of AI.
    A trick in civ V was to have them fight each other, but in 6 AI will just do it regardless without winning anything, only losing production and gold.
    Usually the one 1 civ that wins is isolated and just pumping out science/culture without any outside obstacles
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  3. none

    none si vis pacem para bellum

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Nowhere
    The AI is the one thing that keeps me from playing more Civ 6. Too bad it hasn't been fixed in all that time.
     
  4. Zdarg

    Zdarg Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    514
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    Who cares? The game started at 1991, and all 28 years war AI was equally terrible. To say it was better in previous versions would be direct lie, I'd think. It never was. So, why it would become suddenly netter now?
     
  5. Kaan Boztepe

    Kaan Boztepe Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2018
    Messages:
    300
    Gender:
    Male
    AI beats go grandmasters , starcraft2 proplayers , dota2 etc. This forum is aware of this fact and by the way for 20 years civ did not have an AI just huge bonuses to computer controlled opponents with a lot of hardcoded actions.
     
  6. 679x

    679x Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Messages:
    235
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think that's really a fair argument. It's like saying "well, politicians have been corrupt for centuries. Corruption is bad, sure, but it's been happening for so long, so why should we care about it?". There are people on this forum who think that the way the devs have always approached AI is not the best way, and that it's time to make a change to it.

    I can't keep up on Deity difficulty. Or even Immortal. But, if it were up to me, we'd have the AI's warring be improved considerably, and the difficulty setting would have the AI's strategy/tactics scale. The highest difficulty would have the most advanced tactical AI, and would probably be more intelligent in other manners as well (prioritizing Campuses/Theatres over holy sites most of the time, better district placement, etc.). That way, we wouldn't really have to just give the civs a ton of extra settlers at the start, which makes the early game super unbalanced (for a lower-difficulty player like me - the extra settlers for AI are the reason why I don't play the highest difficulties), and require the human player just play the catch-up game and have an easy time later on in the game because the AI can't stay powerful.

    In an ideal world, the tactics would also vary based on the leader, and maybe even the match itself, to keep things interesting - it might not be as fun if all the AI leaders just play the exact same way all the time. Agendas should still be taken into consideration. Example: maybe in some games, John Curtin won't have any problems being a jerk because he knows that if you declare war on him, he'll get doubled production. Or, in other games, he plays the way his agenda probably intends, where he'll fight against a warmonger to liberate cities specifically so that he can get the production bonus for longer, but otherwise won't be aggressive, and only fight if you initiate it (again, bonus production). In any case, though, he'd prefer to settle cities in positions where he can reach high-appeal tiles for the district yield bonuses, and also try to map out district placement to maximize appeal bonuses AND adjacency bonuses. He'd plant cities on coastal tiles, but only beside the highest appeal tiles and not right on top of them, or else he won't be able to benefit from the yield bonuses. Does John Curtin think like this in games already? I don't know. I don't think he does. But maybe he should.

    So yea, this discussion was about AI's combat skills specifically, but I think that if the devs improve the AI in that regard (which they should!) then they should consider taking a look at AI decision-making overall. After all, it often is connected. How are the difficulties going to scale if the AI's combat skills are improved? Would they be improved at all skill levels, so the lowest difficulty AI fights just as effectively as the highest difficulty AI? Is that really fair? Maybe the lower-difficulty AI shouldn't be stupid, but at least shouldn't be a strategic genius like a Deity AI might be. And while we're at it, maybe we can improve the AI's non-combat related decision making in higher difficulties, and then we can remove the whole "30 extra free settlers at turn 1!" thing.
     
    tomekum likes this.
  7. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,001
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buenos Aires
    Go and chess are orders of magnitude simpler than Civ, especially recent Civs. Invalid comparison.

    SC2 and DOTA 2 are more interesting comparisons, but there's a number of important details to point out.
    • The AI development is recent and I believe part of a partnership more than actual Blizzard work. At least in SC2's case. Not sure about DOTA.
    • Both are high-profile, esports type games. Civ is more niche so less likely to draw the attention of serious AI developers.
    • Both games are still simpler than Civ. SC2 is all about build orders, fixed maps and APM. DOTA 2 barely has more than one fixed map (if that).
    About Civ AI, it has definitely improved over the years. The problem is that the game's complexity has outpaced it. We're past the point AI players can handle the mechanics as they should, and therefore Civ7 (or Humankind) should put the brakes on features and focus on optimizing the AI in the context of what already exists.
     
  8. Zdarg

    Zdarg Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    514
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    Why? If they didn't make a change in 28 years, it's more than probable they won't make it ever. Why now? Why to hope for impossible exactly now?
    I'd say if there was time to make a change to it, this time definitely gone. Many years ago. Too late.
    And, personally, I don't regret this. I've grown accustomed to this weak AI and won't be happy to have better. It would ruin my experience with the game and I am too old to relearn.
     
  9. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,001
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buenos Aires
    To say the AI hasn't changed in 28 years is patently false, and fails to acknowledge the game has changed A LOT in that time.

    The AI has necessarily improved, a lot, but it's been losing the "mechanics race" since Civ5.
     
    tomekum likes this.
  10. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,576
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
    The power of computer hardware, multiple cpu chips and graphics card power are far greater than 15 years ago when Civ4 came out. There have been advances in programming AI and it seems that it is time to, at least start, programming a more competent AI foe. The question is whether it is profitable to do so?
     
    tomekum likes this.
  11. Zdarg

    Zdarg Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    514
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    Literally, it changed. It improved, quite evidently, since military win condition was changed from "conquer all cities on the map" to easier "conquer all capitals".
    But it was, is and always will be suboptimal, in comparison with average player's skill.
    It isn't worse than in Civ4 now. Except, maybe, in specific area of air combat.
     
  12. klail

    klail Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    99
    Agree with the others how the AI is terrible. I find this mod to make warmongering at least a little better:

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1293939096

    Basically it just adjusts the combat bonus the AI gets to (try to) make up for its incompetence. Can adjust the XML # to a higher number than +12.

    +1 on hoping the dev's release more modding/DLL tools so we can get more people working on AI for it.

    I'd love a mod that helps the AI ensures that their units all get upgraded. That is a big part of the problem that seems easily solvable since cheating as par for the course for the AI.
     
    glider1 likes this.
  13. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,183
    1. Civ VI has reached such a point of complexity in the series that the AI cannot be expected to competently compete with the Human player. I'm hopeful technological advancements will have a huge impact on the Civ series in the future.

    2. Despite the shortcomings, there's still plenty of space to improve AI competency even under the current limitations. I'm talking small tweaks which are glaring while you're playing. (e.g. AI settling cities which flip within 5 turns.)
     
  14. none

    none si vis pacem para bellum

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Nowhere
    If you still play Civ 4 then you can tell the difference.

    Sure, Civ 4 is an easier game for an AI to play (no one unit per tile limit).

    Sure, the AI in Civ 4 gets some massives bonuses to keep up with the human player but that's not the problem either.

    Sure technology has come a long way since Civ 4 came out but it doesn't make up for a better game as far as challenge is concerned and I find that Civ 4 is still more fun when it comes to difficulty even if the AI may cheat a lot.

    Last time I played Civ 6 (which must have been in February 2018) the AI was as dumb as a bag of bricks and couldn't wage war or defend its cities, its settlers or its workers (apparently sending a settler next to an occupied city in wartime while enemy units are nearby is a good idea). The only challenge was when it started to spam missionaries but that was more of a nuisance than an actual challenge. The AI leaders kept berating me for no reason, telling me I was going bankrupt when I was rolling in money or that I wasn't putting up a fight when I had just taken out an entire civ from the game.

    Civ 6 is a lovely and charming game with some nice ideas but if someone like me who is definitely not a great player (I'm a Noble or Prince difficulty kind of guy and I don't get to play as much as I'd like to) can win effortlessly while still figuring out the new mechanics then there is a problem (playing on Prince felt like playing Settler difficulty and I did go for a science victory with Tomyris of all people just to see what the later eras were like).

    Civ 6 has lots of new and interesting features that may just prove too challenging for an AI and that may be the problem unless they can somehow make it work.
     
    tomekum likes this.
  15. Kayak06460

    Kayak06460 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    19
    I was recently at war with the Netherlands on Immortal level. They attacked with four bombers and one fighter. They then sent three modern tank armies and two Death robots over an ocean to attack one of my smaller island cities. This is rare, but shows that it is possible for the AI to make war.
     
  16. Zdarg

    Zdarg Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    514
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    Last time I played Civ 4 the AI was as dumb as a bag of bricks and couldn't wage war or defend its cities, its settlers or its workers.
    Last time I played Civ 3 the AI was as dumb as a bag of bricks and couldn't wage war or defend its cities, its settlers or its workers.
    Last time I played Civ 2 the AI was as dumb as a bag of bricks and couldn't wage war or defend its cities, its settlers or its workers.
    Last time I played Civ 1 the AI was as dumb as a bag of bricks and couldn't wage war or defend its cities, its settlers or its workers.
     
  17. James_Champagne

    James_Champagne Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2019
    Messages:
    69
    Gender:
    Male
    Something I'm curious about: does the AI in Civ VI ever raze cities (and by that I'm not talking about city-states, just the major civs)? I don't think I've ever seen them do that. I almost kind of wish they would because it would add more suspense when they actually do take one of your cities.
     
    Pure24 likes this.
  18. Pure24

    Pure24 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2019
    Messages:
    187
    Civ VI AI is actually quite good! No really, most of the issues I find personally is their inability to perform certain actions (e.g. upgrading and promoting units, building/using air units etc...).

    I usually use mods which fix these things, and man... you do NOT want to come up against a 4-promotion Crossbow!

    Which is not to say the AI is excellent. What they need to improve more on, for me, is its ability to capture/defend cities, and yes, @James_Champagne ... to even raze cities sometimes (which I've never seen)
     
    James_Champagne likes this.
  19. none

    none si vis pacem para bellum

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Nowhere
    For the record I never had the AI send a lonely settler next to a city being attacked by the enemy in Civ 4.

    Interesting. I guess that you can't compare the difficulty rating in previous Civ games with Civ 6. In my experience (and I stress that point) Prince level was fine for a decent challenge with Civ 4 and 5 and it's clearly not the case here.
     

Share This Page