War with French

[YossarianLives]

Right now, they probably just have a couple warriors / archers for garrison in those cities. Their Power is less than the Germans, even with their recent "buildup". Poly is keeping tabs on their "army" and at last count it seemed to be up north getting ready to take Chinook.

But I agree it would be awesome if we had a spy around there to take a look at things and know for sure what they have.

 

[YossarianLives]

I smell blood in the water and we need to move in for the kill.

Remember:

Yeah, we are something like

Spoiler :

 

[2metraninja]

Ot4e: RB started great person generation
Ot4e: in the city with national epic
Ot4e: 2 priests, 2 sciensists, 1 engineer
Ot4e: will get one aroud turn 160
2metraninja: 1 wont be enough for much I guess
2metraninja: any news from the French?
2metraninja: can you tell me please where you saw those 7 HAs from Maya?
Ot4e: 5 on them were on the desert 2 tiles to the west from their western city we see
Ot4e: with worker
2metraninja: which city you see?
2metraninja: Saumur?
Ot4e: i dont remember the name
Ot4e: it is the western city from their south group
2metraninja: south.. aha
Ot4e: no news from frenchies so far
2metraninja: so those HAs were west of their capitol actually
Ot4e: if i dont mess some things
Ot4e: i will check
Ot4e: i remember that they were roading desert tiles in the isthmus
2metraninja: yes, please, check that, as it may turn very important info
2metraninja: I see, most probably that is west of their capitol
2metraninja: the southern isthmus
2metraninja: with only 1 worker?
Ot4e: yes, i think it is, there was 1 worker, but they could have workers further
Ot4e: or zulus could road their direction
2metraninja: of course
2metraninja: zulus cant, as we caught most of their workers
2metraninja: 5 so far.
2metraninja: and we are surrounded 1 of theirs too
2metraninja: do you have visibility on the French city on the isthmus?
Ot4e: i need to check
Ot4e: tell me names of the cities you are interested in
2metraninja: ok, please, do so, we need to know if they are sending help to Zulus
Ot4e: i will answer
2metraninja: ok
Ot4e: it allready looks they are
2metraninja: Tirecul
2metraninja: and MisClick - their capitol
2metraninja: those are their most SW cities
2metraninja: if they are moving army to help Zulus in the south, they must send them trough the isthmus and they must be seen in thhose cities
2metraninja: on the North, we are interested in Saumur
2metraninja: and the city west of it if you see it
Ot4e: north cities we dont see as far as I remember
Ot4e: strange that they dont have road to zulu yet
Ot4e: especially if they were going to help them
2metraninja: how you know there are no roads?
Ot4e: probably zulu was to build it ))
2metraninja: hahah
Ot4e: on that isthmus at least they dont
2metraninja: yes, конце концов Zulus need help, why French waste time and efforts building roads
Ot4e: I can spy with missionary I send to you
2metraninja: they did not said anything about it?
2metraninja: that would be great
Ot4e: frenchie agreed to allow it
Ot4e: well I think i cant make zig-zags there saying that I got lost in the landmasses of theirs
Ot4e: what direction do you recommend?

Right now, with the new information from our allies, who happen to see a bit of the French western territories (Ot4e seeing SW, while MZ seeing NW), we know that they are not that vulnerable. 5 HAs on the south isthmus and whole pile of gold meant they can upgrade those at any time to knights and ruin our plans for quick surprising strike in their heart.

I think they will use money for upgrades to make their obsolete army somewhat useable against us. But if they do or do not upgrade, we must be prepared. I think us setting up a trap for the French on the south isthmus must be very easy. We need to move our spy in the neutral territory to watch French movement and try to predict where they will move and prepare catapults/workers/units to annihilate them in the open.

 

[Sommerswerd]

And we need to get another Spy over there to the front ASAP. If we lose our Spy we are blind without info from allies.

 

[2metraninja]

Right now our spy is secure. He ended turn in the Zulu capitol, where I was very afraid he can be caught, but he obviously survived, as otherwise APT mod site would had tell us. And this turn we will move him SE from Zulu capitol and he will be already out of enemy culture, so he wont be caught. But we do have another spy produced in 1 turn from our core.

 

[YossarianLives]

Well, Inao from CivFr logged in earlier and spent almost an hour in the game. The bad news is that they declined our in-game peace offer, and they did not re-offer it. The good news is that they did not attack any of our troops. They haven't ended turn yet, so things could still go either way, but I am fully expecting them to raze Nobambo. It's their smartest move at this point. For all the smack I've been talking about them, I must admit they have played a smart game so far.

 

[classical_hero]

Do we have a settler that can quickly replace the city?

 

[Sommerswerd]

I dont think we want to replace the city right away if they raze it. Razing means they will have attacked and killed our units, so that whole area will be a hot War Zone and not good for settling new cities unless for strategic purposes.

I think that now, especially with Poly acting wishy-washy again, we should prepare for the real possibility that we will have to put our troops on the RB border, while still fighting grueling War with CivFr. We will not be able to do much development of cities while in full War mode, so we need to get our Espy buildings built so that we can steal tech later to catch up.


Unless we can somehow get some big decisive victory in a battle that makes CivFr want peace soon.

 

[Maga_R]

I think that now, especially with Poly acting wishy-washy again, we should prepare for the real possibility that we will have to put our troops on the RB border, while still fighting grueling War with CivFr.

I agree with not resettling on the front line.

But if we cannot get peace we like with CivFr soon why not simply extend our NAP with RB.

I see that nobody seems to share my opinion, but I do believe that there are easier ways to win this than battling #1 civ and #2 civ at the same time

 

[bistrita]

Ye, if allies start acting weird we have to see our interest,i am for anap with rb becasue i am convice we can outech them.

 

[Maga_R]

Ye, if allies start acting weird we have to see our interest,i am for anap with rb becasue i am convice we can outech them.

Yeah, exactly, I also think RB may be right that CivFr has better infrastructure and has huge GNP and to guarantee peace with them we will probably have to give them huge amount of land. But it also means that we should try to verify asap if RB's NAP offer is still on the table ...

 

[Aivoturso]

They haven't ended turn yet, so things could still go either way, but I am fully expecting them to raze Nobambo. It's their smartest move at this point.

My guess is that they are seriously considering their options. I think that our offer for peace probably took them as much by surprise as did our DoW. As you said, this can go either way, but I take it as encouraging sign that they are spending time to think about it.

 

[YossarianLives]

The problem is that if we extend our NAP with RB, then they will be free to steamroll CivPlayers. If they take CP lands, in addition to German lands, then it really is game over for everyone else.

Poly mentioned the extreme scenario where we easily take out CivFr. We know that this is not going to happen. If this does not happen, then he agrees that we are on the right course in dogpiling RB. Of course he is not going to help us win if we easily overtake the #2 team and become the new obvious leader. But as long as RB remains as the clear #1, he knows that it is in his interest to help us take them down. That is why it is in our best interest for the "dogpile" to be a minimal affair that slowly lets us catch up to RB while they continue to appear to be the main threat.

Plus, MZ is probably delighted that we are taking it to CivFr right now. Remember how they almost went to war earlier? Of course we don't have a game-long agreement to be best friends to the end, it would be silly to think that. But right now we both realize that it is in each of our best interests to work together until the RB threat is neutralized. For now he's just keeping us on our toes.

As for CivFr, this is going to be tough. There was no way we could let them take all the Zulu land that they were asking for. We should have tried to resolve the situation diplomatically, and we probably didn't bring our best diplomatic play to the table. Imho, this was a result of the serious delays our team takes in coming to a consensus in what messages to send. If CivFr had completed their trade mission, they could have upgraded all those HA's to Knights earlier and really might have been able to move on all those cities they wanted before we could get there. So, we were left with little choice but to delay the trade mission until we could work things out with them. Unfortunately, we didn't send them any message, they cashed in their GM on a GA, and we're left in this current position.

So what do we do now? Like I said earlier, giving RB a free NAP practically hands them the win. I really really really don't want to do that. Giving CivFr all the land they initially requested might buy us peace, but it also pretty much takes us out of the running to win this game. I don't want to do that, either. Generals, can we use our new Spanish cities to whip out enough defenders to hold the line against CivFr in the long term, while using our core to get the standing army we need on the RB border at T175? Will that damage our cities too much? Will we have any opportunities to move against one of the weaker teams like WPC or UCiv if we have large armies held back to protect us from the two strong teams?

We've really got to think hard about our options here, since there is no obvious or easy play for us...

 

[bistrita]

first they cant steamrol CP, as you seen its not that easy and i think righ now cp its in face with research, and what i actulay think ist cp and poly use us like a shield agains rb and they build as far as few units they can.

 

[YossarianLives]

I agree that CP and Poly are using us as a shield. But if we can all shield each other, then we come out ahead since we start ahead. If CP or Poly don't build enough units and RB invades one of them, then we can use this to our advantage and invade RB in turn. We would need to have the biggest standing army to make sure that we are not the team RB decides to attack.

But if you think that CP could give RB enough trouble, then maybe a NAP with RB would be best...

If we sign a NAP extension with RB and just concentrate on CivFr, do you think we can make gains there, or are we just hoping to keep them out of our cities while we build up economically?

 

[Maga_R]

first they cant steamrol CP, as you seen its not that easy and i think righ now cp its in face with research, and what i actulay think ist cp and poly use us like a shield agains rb and they build as far as few units they can.

I generally agree with Bistrita on that.

And well, as 2metra said I am easily scared, but unless we can beat CivFr into submission quickly, fighting both CivFr and RB really does not look appealing to me: our allies cannot help us against CivFr and anti-RB alliance look shaky.

Perhaps I am too pessimistic, but it looks like we may have to think about our survival chances, too, not only about winning the game And anyway we will not win for sure if we will get ourselves eliminated.

 

[Maga_R]

The problem is that if we extend our NAP with RB, then they will be free to steamroll CivPlayers. If they take CP lands, in addition to German lands, then it really is game over for everyone else.

Poly mentioned the extreme scenario where we easily take out CivFr. We know that this is not going to happen. If this does not happen, then he agrees that we are on the right course in dogpiling RB. Of course he is not going to help us win if we easily overtake the #2 team and become the new obvious leader. But as long as RB remains as the clear #1, he knows that it is in his interest to help us take them down. That is why it is in our best interest for the "dogpile" to be a minimal affair that slowly lets us catch up to RB while they continue to appear to be the main threat.

Plus, MZ is probably delighted that we are taking it to CivFr right now. Remember how they almost went to war earlier? Of course we don't have a game-long agreement to be best friends to the end, it would be silly to think that. But right now we both realize that it is in each of our best interests to work together until the RB threat is neutralized. For now he's just keeping us on our toes.

As for CivFr, this is going to be tough. There was no way we could let them take all the Zulu land that they were asking for. We should have tried to resolve the situation diplomatically, and we probably didn't bring our best diplomatic play to the table. Imho, this was a result of the serious delays our team takes in coming to a consensus in what messages to send. If CivFr had completed their trade mission, they could have upgraded all those HA's to Knights earlier and really might have been able to move on all those cities they wanted before we could get there. So, we were left with little choice but to delay the trade mission until we could work things out with them. Unfortunately, we didn't send them any message, they cashed in their GM on a GA, and we're left in this current position.

So what do we do now? Like I said earlier, giving RB a free NAP practically hands them the win. I really really really don't want to do that. Giving CivFr all the land they initially requested might buy us peace, but it also pretty much takes us out of the running to win this game. I don't want to do that, either. Generals, can we use our new Spanish cities to whip out enough defenders to hold the line against CivFr in the long term, while using our core to get the standing army we need on the RB border at T175? Will that damage our cities too much? Will we have any opportunities to move against one of the weaker teams like WPC or UCiv if we have large armies held back to protect us from the two strong teams?

We've really got to think hard about our options here, since there is no obvious or easy play for us...

Great analysis, Yossarian. I agree that we have a tough decision ahead of us - but that is why we play with high intelligent and skilled opponents, to not to win too easily, right?

I did not realize initially how a dangerous opponent CivFr is. But actually looks that our situation is not that bad and relatively simple:

1) We are now at war "till death" with CivFr. (I do not think they rejected our peace offer to re-offer it later, would be very risky especially without answering our letter. I think we must assume they are just thinking about their war moves). The best we can do is to kill as quickly as we can as many units as we can. The time for "pen diplomacy" is over, now we can only persuade with sword

2) Refusing NAP with RB now would be equivalent to organizing a dogpile against *us*, imho. I think we definitely owe OT4E to talk with him first, but other than that I think we should offer RB a "free" NAP quickly. The question is how long NAP we want?

And generally I think Yossarian is right - if we believe that CivFr demands were unacceptable, the situation with CivFr would end up in war anyway, that was also what Sommers were saying.

Once we win the game it would be fun and very interesting to discuss what we could have done better. But now he have the French to fight so I think it is best not be distracted by looking into the past now, and not good for the team morale either. And as a Great General 2metra says, mistakes are unavoidable, in life and in Civs.

So I propose to focus on the 3 subjects now:

1) How to best beat the French in war
2) NAP with RB (Do we want it? How long? Any chance they would help us in any way against the French? Remember to warn OT4E)
3) Ideas for allies or help against the French?

 

[2metraninja]

French razed Nobamba. I guess this means war

 

[classical_hero]

Yes it does, but I already had war down due to their actions. Based on their diplomacy, they never had good intentions for us.

 

[Sommerswerd]

French razed Nobamba. I guess this means war

What is the goal of the War with CivFr?

So far, what have we gained from DoW on French (As in...what do we have that we would not have if we had not DoW on them?)?

So in the end what do we hope to gain from the DoW on French?

It is important to know our goal so that we know what time and resources will be needed.