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War with French

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by 2metraninja, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    I think we decided already that we cannot accept French territorial demands. So it means we have either to fight them to the end or until they become less land greedy (not that likely, I am afraid) :(

    So it looks like our goal is to kill them or at least substantially weaken them. Not much freedom of choice here, if French would not change their mind about peace, looks like we have to keep fighting them.

    On the other hand, seems that we still have initiative in diplo with RB - and I was advocating giving RB a "free" NAP.

    I think it is best to leave "what have we gained from the war with CivFr so far" for the post-game discussion. Now we have to fight them. Period.
     
  2. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Goals for the war against CivFr:

    1. Secure all territory west of (former city of) Nobambo.

    ...

    ...

    ...

    2. Secure long-term NAP with CivFr

    3. Be able to regroup on our western front in time to participate in t175 dogpile against RB.


    As has been mentioned, goals 2 & 3 may no longer be possible if CivFr has decided we're enemies for life and refuse to give us a NAP. In that case, we need to decide if we just want to hold the line against them while continuing to build up our economy, or go back into full war mode and try to eliminate or cripple them. Full war mode would mean falling behind economically and relying on our former allies to hold out against RB without our help. Holding the line is dangerous because it means we will forever have an enemy at our gates and that we will never be able to let our guard down over there.

    What have we gained so far? By denying the trade mission, CivFr was unable to upgrade their ha's to knights and take the Zulu cities before we arrived. If that had happened, it would have been much more difficult to secure the area.
     
  3. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    As far as actual strategy for the war, I'm thinking we should move all our one-movers and cats up to raze Chinook and threaten their northern cities, while we move our knights down along the desert isthmus road to threaten their core cities. All the while letting them know we don't want to fight and will accept a white peace with a long NAP anytime they are ready for it.
     
  4. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    So it's like:
    1. DoW French.
    2. ???
    3. Profit!
     
  5. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Ordinarily I'd've thought
    1. DoW Franch
    2. Settle Zulu land whilst they're trying to get around our Knights
    3. Profit

    But we're on a tight RB-related schedule here.
     
  6. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    We do not have to be. But waiting while fighting #1/2 civ may be dangerous - I understand that we have substantial military advantage now, but CivFr economy is very strong.
     
  7. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    As much as we want to focus on RB, we have to do damage to CivFr so they will leave us alone. But don't think they want to deal with us so we have to strike while we can.
     
  8. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Very good question. Initially, the goal of the war with French was to give us a serious lever to use when negotiating terms of NAP with French. This was their GM which could have been paralyzed until we have peace with French. Well, we did not thought about that they will have another GP to start a GA and evacuate their GM elegantly. Well played on their side. Another reason for this war to start was to show them we are not afraid of war and we act swift when someone cross our way. And third reason was to give us the freedom to attack their units in the field if they try to mess with our plans or if they try to help Spaniards.

    Right now, when the Zulus are gone, the purpose of the war is not that good. We would have preferred to have peace and NAP with French, but they maybe feel offended by our declaration of war and want to punish us, or maybe they feel strong right now that they can take some more Zulu land (which luckily for us is not the truth), or worst case scenario for us is that they already spoke with RB and RB told them our NAP is about to expire in 20 turns and then will be war, so French rely on keeping the war for the next 20 turns and then making push on us when they will know we will have to defend on two fronts.

    Unfortunately for us, until now we gained nothing from declaring war to French except for forcing them to use their GM on a GA, which in the long term will hurt French, but right now it is not that good for us. This "not gained anything" can change quick of course in the form of us razing 2-3-4 French cities and extending our land gains. This will also gain us weaker French opponent (who have been non-cooperative, selfish and arrogant to us the whole history). But also very very angry on us French.


    I wrote the things I was hoping to gain from this DoW. Right now, most of those hopes are gone. Taking all the Zulu land for us only still is very likely scenario though. Hurting them military and razing few of their cities thus seriously hurting them in the long term too.


    Our goals I would describe best as mix of keeping as much Zulu land for ourselves as possible, defending those gains successfully, making as much damage to CivFR short and long term, as they decided to be our enemies from now on as it seems, while making the least efforts and hurting our own economic the minimum (we will need economic in the long run). Possibly, getting a NAP with French at some point, as we are not suited to fight long war with them (unless we get NAP with RB of course).

    In the end, I would propose that we send them a mail, saying:
    "OK, OK, we learned our lesson, now lets drop that $hit and make a NAP to avoid further damaging our both teams."

    We risk nothing. Either they start negotiating, or they dont, but think we will not make them big troubles and somewhat underestimate us, while we heal and regroup :)
     
  9. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Very well! Exactly what I think we must do. Except maybe the outcome - I start to doubt we will see peace with those guys. And I am already started training for singing The Rains of MissClick :D
     
  10. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    I have felt this way for some time... I doubt they want anything besides "to see our good looking heads on the end of a pole.":sad: So realistically we must make the preparations to wage full scale War on them. We have nothing to lose. If they do want War to the death, we will be ready, and if they do finally give us a NAP, then we can turn the army against RB instead.

    This is exactly what I think is happening, which is why I think we must face facts and prepare for the 2 front War. The celebrated Invincible Defender of Nabaxica must once again don his armour and fight off enemies from 2 sides.:ninja:

    Good to see you are confident and in good spirits General ;). I hope that we will smoke cigars:cowboy: drink toasts :beer: and :dance: dance on their smoking cities and fresh dug graves when all is said and done.
     
  11. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    Have we even attempted to communicate with them? Or are we just assuming things?

    I'd bet a beer that they are making the exact same assumptions against us, except that they have more reasons to assume that we are hostile (we declared war, etc.)
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    Yes we sent at least one (maybe 2) letter to them right before eliminating SpAP, and before they razed Nobamba. They did not respond to us. The letter asked for peace and a NAP.

    We also sent them an offer of Peace in-game, which they refused. So it seems at least for now that they are in "We will never make peace with you, our worst enemy" mode.:(

    What assumtions are you betting a beer that they are making? (I have to know what you're betting before I decide whether to take the bet ;))
     
  13. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    We had streak of awful luck this turn. We lost 2 fights at 71% and 68%. With the last fight we failed to do ANY damage :( Because of that we had to choose to retreat what we can or stand and try to cover our wounded knight who had to finish the job to kill those lucky French ba$tards. Bistrita left this choice to me and I took the decision to cover with 2 fresh knights, both of which will have odds vs the 2 full health French knights which can attack us next turn. If General Bistrita's luck had temporarily left him, I think it is time for my luck to shine :) Plus: "We leave no one behind!"

    We will have 2 full health knights, both promoted with combat1 and shock, and 2 wounded knights - both at 6.2 str, one of them with combat1 and the other with combat2. French will have in range to hit us 2 full health knights without promotions, one wounded knight (was in the fog already, and General Bistrita wrote only "wounded knight" plus 2 full health HAs.

    We fell in this chaotic skirmish situation because we wanted to take Nobamba before the French as we were still hoping for a diplomatic solution. If the French were sent us earlier their full of hate answer, we would had knew what is the situation and we would had let them capture the city, while we hold our knights and advance in tight formation with our infantry and siege.

    Now is the time if any of you know any Jewish pray or something suitable in Sanskrit, we will need our luck here :)
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    This few losses situation is a small matter. This is a War to the finish for our survival.

    What drafts and whips can we do this turn? The front line has to be reinforced and the supply lines must start now as War is upon us. We can't expect that we will win every single combat over 50% odds. 70% means 3 out of 10 times, you lose.

    There was never any chance that we were going to win the War with only the troops we used to beat SpAp.
     
  15. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    :agree: Loosing two knights is not end of the world. And I understand that the luck remarks were tongue-in-cheek, but we now at war, perhaps life-or-death war, and what we need most is not luck - we need PLANS. As Napoleon Bonaparte famously said, "God is always supporting the side with better artillery" ;)

    And if we want to trick French into thinking we are weak let us do it in the battlefield, by pretending to retreat or setting a trap.
     
  16. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Wrt to plans - I have no idea about military part - but it seems it is time for some Civic Switching fun! :devil: We have been suffering this spiritual leader for more than hundred turns for that exact purpose :D I do hope Sommers would agree ;)

    OK, if we want to do this, first thing is we need to get couple spies asap. It will take them a while to get to CivFr anyway, and we may not want to wait for any discount, so time is of essence. I know that CivFr is in a Golden Age now, but we can safely start to mess with their civics even while they are in GA - they still cannot switch back without waiting 5 turns :D

    Goals of civic switching missions, imho: [*]

    1) keep them away from any civic useful in war:

    * nationhood
    * slavery
    * vassalage
    * theocracy

    2) Ruin their economy by putting them in a very undesirable civics or civics combinations. Especially putting them e.g. in pacifism (extra cost for military units) together with switching them into religion they have in only one city, would be very effective.

    Do they have our religion in at least one city? If no, is it possible to spread religion during war and can we build missionaries? Can our allies spread their religion to one of CivFr's cities and one of our own?

    In my experience, espionage can be a deadly weapon, but it requires a lot of planning and preparation. Pn the other hand, seems that our main goal for this war is to ruin CivFr economy - espionage may be most effective way of doing it.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [*]CivFr would have choose whether they want to be in these undesirable civics permanently or if they want to go through anarchy - and risk being civis-switched again. We can switch "for free" being SPI, but still have to spend 5 turns in these less desirable civics. But we will be in charge of when it will happen, so will be easier on us anyway.
     
  17. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Yes, interesting that I found the game inaccessible this morning while trying to log in to check what would be the price for civic switch mission in Chinook.

    For undesirable civics (pacifism), dont forget that we have to be in the very same civic (or religion in the case that French dont have any Jewish city) for 5 turns at least to be able to switch them in it. And if they dont lose a turn or two switching back (being in a GA right now) it will hurt us equally as them. I think they did not switched civics since their GA started, so real option would be only after they ran out of GA (damned MoM powered 12-turns French GA).

    What I had in mind is at some point around their GA expires we may want to switch to Caste/REP, which for us great, but French wont enjoy Caste much without having the option to switch to REP themselves.
     
  18. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    We can start switching them 4 turns before their GA ends - we will probabably not have spies ready much earlier.

    If CivFrench has any Jewish city, the situation which be much better for us - Pacifism with Judaism would not be that bad for us. BTW, I have just realized that our allies can convert a French city to Judaism for us, too. I think it is very important to determine if CivFr has any city with our religion. And do we have a shrine? Both give considerable EP discounts.

    EDIT: Another way to have a "cheap" city for EP missions would be to let CivFr capture a nice city near our capitol to which we will spread Judaism first. Like Team Amazon did with Sirius :D. Unfortunately, this option is very risky, CivFr can always raze the city, however nice it would be :(
     
  19. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    1230 Esp. points to change 1 civic in Tirecul. Interesting this is the cheapest city to perform espionage missions. We have 100 EP towards them right now and make 10 ept. With maximum bonus 50% for 5 turns, we will have to spend like 500 gold to get to switch their civic.
     
  20. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    This is without Judaism, right? Any chance we or our allies would spread Judaism there? Do we have a shrine?

    EP mission cost depends not only on the distance to our capitol, but also city size.
     

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