Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.1

[Gomurr]

First I want to thank you guys for the continued support of this mod. It's an amazing adaption of the Warhammer setting, and one of the chief reasons why I haven't purchased Civ4 yet.

...really, if people keep saying things like this, the makers of the Civ games are going to start thinking that modability will hurt their profits, and maybe be less willing to allow us to modify their games. So - shhhhhh!

 

[LMR]

Just a quick question stormrage : why am i a perv for liking Cut n Paste?

 

[Stormrage]

Mrtn keeps saying how booooooriiing it is, so I figured there must be something wrong with you, heheh. But it just accured to me... some people like baseball (which is also extremly boring to all non-american and non-japanese life forms ), and I wouldn`t call them pervs. Anyway, I`m really sorry, if I`ve offended you. I can do an edit and remove it if you want. I noticed you put a smile before asking the question so i figure you are not offended, but just in case : I`m sorry, you are not a perv, I have a weird sense of humour, and I love the results of your CnP-ing. How are the exams coming up?

EDIT: i had a unit addign question, asked here so I wouldn`t bump the tutorial threads. I`ve just figured out those are stickies... Stupid...
So, I tried the Hun unit... mrtn...really, what`s not to like? I mean, its as Ungolish as they come! (aaglo, if kossars are of Ungol origin, how come they are blond? Just courious) Sure, it doesn`t have sounds but that can be fixed, right?

 

[Wauthan]

...really, if people keep saying things like this, the makers of the Civ games are going to start thinking that modability will hurt their profits, and maybe be less willing to allow us to modify their games. So - shhhhhh!

If the developers react like that then they are more foolish then I expected. The only reason why I bought CivIII in the first place was to play Drifts Master of Myrror mod.

 

[Wauthan]

- Double post -

 

[Gomurr]

I haven't heard anything about werebears in WH, got any proof? We won't add stuff just because it's cool, it should be anchored in WH "reality" too.

It just occured to me, that if this is true, how do you explain the Saurus gunmen in the current version of the mod? Not that I'm trying to aggitate to give werebears to the Dolgans, because I've already voiced my disagreement with that. But I really don't think those Saurus gunmen belong in the mod. I've removed them from my version, so I'm content. But if you're going to claim that you only include things in the mod that are rooted in the world or Warhammer, the Saurus gunman has got to go

And:

If the developers react like that then they are more foolish then I expected. The only reason why I bought CivIII in the first place was to play Drifts Master of Myrror mod.

There are only two things one should never underestimate - the memory of women and the stupidity of people. Never presume upon the intelligence of people. And while the developers certainly don't seem like the type to get upset, when the people running the company start hearing that fans of the Civ series are not buying Civ 4 because of mods for Civ 3, who knows how they'd react.

 

[LMR]

Don't worry, Stormrage, I wasn't offended. I've been called plenty worse in my time...

 

[Stormrage]

About gunpowder units... doesn`t the default musketman fit better for Reikland? The Greatswordsman has that feather-hat, the Reiksguard has it, the musketman also has it...

And if they are going to keep the "false and made up" Saurus Gunman (and yes, I know ALL of them are made up, but you get the point), than I root for Hikaro`s Mithra ninja unit (without the tail and the ears) for the Amazons.
Rules are made to be broken

 

[mrtn]

It just occured to me, that if this is true, how do you explain the Saurus gunmen in the current version of the mod?

I don't. I'm here for my ultimate w00tness when it comes to being a great modder, 2d gfx man and evil henchman, not for my knowledge of the WH world. Ask Mr. Do about the gunman.

 

[Gomurr]

Well, really, there is no explanation. That was just my way of suggesting the removal of the saurus gunman, or the cessation of claims to only including canon-based units.

Stormrage - I currently have the original French musketeer as my Handgunner, since he has an appropriate 'poofy' hat and pants, and am using the original Musketman for my redone Estalian army, since his armor fits its 'conquistador' style. Really what we could use is a new Handgunner unit made to look like the WH model, but the need isn't really pressing so I wouldn't even bother making such a request.

Another thing, mainly directed at Stormrage. I haven't played as the Dolgans or bordered them in my games, so I'm not that familiar with their army. But, if they need another unit as suggested, the Centaur might be appropriate. I have seen in a number of sources that Centaurs are supposed to exist on the plains east of Kislev, where the Dolgans are, and that the Dolgans often form alliances with them. So perhaps that could be a useable unit. Or the Centigors - after all, the Dolgans are allies of Chaos in the WH world, so they could possibly include certain beastmen in their armies.

And, I had a kind of random idea and was wondering if anyone knew whether it could work. I was thinking of creating a Norse wonder that produces a unit, "Bearman of Urslo" which would use the Hunter unit from Anno Domani, and that this unit would be upgradeable to a Beornwerenar (werebear) using the Bear unit of mrtn. I'm wondering, what would happen if I also made it so that the Bear could then upgrade to the Bearman? Would they be able to change back and forth, from Bear to Bearman, or would the Bearman simply not be able to upgrade at all, or would it blow up my computer? Any chance someone knows, or do I need to experiment?

And one last thing - Does Kislev have a gunpowder unit? I haven't played as them since v2 first came out, but I didn't see one when I was going through the unit lists the other day. If they do not, this is really something that needs to be fixed (imho). I'd suggest the Kislevite War Wagon as their gunpowder unit, but that would require a complex new unit and I doubt the unit makers are inclined to make it. But perhaps a second version of the Kossar, armers with a pistol and handweapon or two pistols, would be appropriate, since the Kislev Army List described Cossaks, now called Kossars in WH, as having the option of being armed with a bow and hand weapon, pistol and handweapon, or two pistols. Of course, this would depend upon Aaglo's willingness to make such a unit, and I will not presume upon his willingness. I'm just putting this out there as something we could use.

 

[Stormrage]

I`ve just read the civilopedia info on Kossars, now I know how come aaglo`s unit is blonde. But the Ungols also use them before the Kislevites, so they aren`t a mix-nationality unit yet... But thats just nitpicking. No gunpowder (pistol) unit for Kislev. Yet.

Musketeer looks too poofy for me, nevermind on that, I rarely even get to the last age.

I like the centaur idea, thanks! Always wanted to try that one out, now I`ve got an excuse

Yeah, were-people change back and forth, but thats kind of pointless in Civ..
What you would get from downgrading units? Except loosing money on upgrades? But I like the Wonder idea. Give werebears to WH! Yeah! I came here all determined to do some dl-ing and give Dolgans the Bear, but the centaurs will work great! (In which tech would you put the SW?) And do you have an idea where i can put the centaur? Creature control? What about stats? They already have the horse archer... And can you tell me what did you do with the Estalians? PM me or something, if you don`t want to post it here. Hey, the Explorer (original Civ) unit looks conquistadorish? What about this one?

This guy for inds infantry? His weapon and fighting style clearly say east...

And this is a good idea... If Reikland is the most powerfull country, than it could have an infantry unit (a bit weaker and cheaper than others - Feudalism - 6-4-1?), using R8XFT`s Norman swordman gfx, which looks awesome with the Reiksguard knigts, and the Greatswordman would get a bit more expensive (with the same stats). So their power would also be in numbers, no? A bunch of cheap inf., supported by the elite Greatswordmen and Reiksguard knights?
R8XFT`s Karkades unit looks great for the Ind pikeman, the blade is kind of lame, and looks more arabic..

About Life, Universe, Orcs & Goblins...
The Goblins get smaller (ED`s) orcs, including the old orc spearman, maybe renamed goblin pikeman. The Orcs get aaglo`s units. And then the two civs are more different, yet the same

A special request for mrtn... I switched the Ungols color to Tilea`s yellow, and then figured out that the ungol soldier and the heavy archer are PURPLE (pink, whatever, Norcsa and Naggaroth got the good shades) on default! I know you do recoloring, and I have no idea is it complicated or hard or it just takes long, but could you please recolor theese 2 units, to somekind of brown? Light-brown seems pretty neutral to me, it would work for a civ that has (well, now it does) units with yellow civ-markings. I totaly understand if you don`t have the time, or can`t/won`t do it.

I found this. The middle one, the archer. It has that wolf skin on his head, like the swordman-marauder... He could be the new unit for Dolgans... I know, I know, he`s naked, but so is the tracker (the animal pelts on their heads are magic talismans that keep them safe from cold, blah, blah, the gladiator doesn`t have one, so I`m kicking him out.)

 

[Gomurr]

Unguls have Kossars?? Well, that's another thing I'll be removing. Kossars come from the northern reachers of Kislev, Ungols live in the far east, north of Cathay. That's like giving a Finnish unit to an Inuit/Mongols amalgam civ.

Musketeer looks too poofy for me, nevermind on that, I rarely even get to the last age.

Well, I'm not forcing you to use them But in defense of my choice - have you seen the picture of Handgunners on the Warhammer site? They're ridiculously poofy.

Yeah, were-people change back and forth, but thats kind of pointless in Civ..
What you would get from downgrading units? Except loosing money on upgrades?

What on earth makes you think it would be pointless? I'm not about to attempt something if I don't see a point to it. In particular, I had considered giving the Bear a strong attack and improved HP but poor defense, as they are unarmored after all, and giving the Bearman a higher defense and perhaps some other feature(s) to make having him in that form advantageous in certain situations. And the question was could it work, not do you think it would be useful

And this is a good idea... If Reikland is the most powerfull country, than it could have an infantry unit (a bit weaker and cheaper than others - Feudalism - 6-4-1?), using R8XFT`s Norman swordman gfx, which looks awesome with the Reiksguard knigts, and the Greatswordman would get a bit more expensive (with the same stats). So their power would also be in numbers, no? A bunch of cheap inf., supported by the elite Greatswordmen and Reiksguard knights?

First off, they are not necessarily the most powerful country. Both Ulthuan and Naggaroth would probably whoop them. And then of course there's Araby, which could be a powerful rival, and Cathay, which in all likelihood is more powerful. And the Greenskins might be more powerful if they could be united under one leader. And lets not forget the Lizardmen, who could probably crush any WH nation if that was their wish. It has even been said that if Bretonia were to turn all its attention upon the Empire their knights would triumph. So, there's no need to go beefing up Reikland in an attempt to make them the most powerful. Second, I've considered doing a similar thing to what you suggest as a representation of the Free Companies of the Empire, and making them either cheap units or produced periodically by a city improvement. But I haven't taken the time to find a good free company unit, so I haven't gotten around to testing out such an addition.

About Life, Universe, Orcs & Goblins...
The Goblins get smaller (ED`s) orcs, including the old orc spearman, maybe renamed goblin pikeman. The Orcs get aaglo`s units. And then the two civs are more different, yet the same

When I redid my greenskins, I also added a few of Aaglo's Ork units to their list, to represent their technological knack (one of the cannons, the zzap gun, and the flash gitz). At one point I read an account of the coming of the Chaos Gods, in which it talked about how a fleeing Hashut and his pursuers brought destruction to the Badlands. At the time, the fledgeling Greenskin civilization inhabited a hospitable Badlands, in which the Goblins, using their superior intellects and technology, were actually forming a successful civilization that withstood the barbaric orcs and backstabbing hobgoblins. The destruction in the Badlands devastated the goblins and destroyed the devices they used to hold off their larger brethren, and they were then enslaved by orcs, resulting in their 'current' position in Warhammer. Based on this, I figured if a goblin civ (Red Eye Goblins) had been allowed to flourish, they would've become a technologically sophisticated race like an imitation of the dwarves, to some extent. And by adding in these technological units, the Goblins can become a suprisingly powerful civ in the Fourth Era, if they make it that far.

He could be the new unit for Dolgans... I know, I know, he`s naked, but so is the tracker

I really wouldn't worry too much about the nakedness of northern warriors. After all, I'm pretty sure Viking Beserkers went into battle nude as they were 'armored by the gods'. And someone can fight nude in Scandanavia, I suppose it can be done anywhere.

 

[Stormrage]

Acording to the civilopedia (and thats probably not made up by mr.do and co)
the Kossars were Ungol mercenaries who fought against other Ungols too, mostly for Kislev I suppose. So the Ungol version is the original one, and Kislev now has those units as regulars (not mercs), made of soldiers of both Kislevite and Ungol origin.

They`re not all that poofey, no more than the Greatswordsmen, it seems to me...

If everyone gangs up on America... I understood that the Empire is the most powerfull one. For now atleast. Anyway, if Chaos can have tons of units, one more for Empire is not that bad. Plus, the Norman swordman and the Reiksguard Knight look really, really good together, and Greatswordmen are above the rolle of simple infantry (forward march, arrows, screaming...figure out the rest for yourself). This way Greatswordmen become elite units of the Empire.

About aaglo`s ork units... i was reffering to the ones already in the mod, that have been placed in a rather strange way. And for some reason, in my games, Goblins are always one of the strongest, and i haven`t made any changes.

Well, you see, about the Berserkers...we are kind of special in our own nude-running-axe-wielding way I`m still giving the germanic spearman to the Dolgans, cause all they do during the day is stand and wait for someone to attack, being defensive and all, and if you are wearing a gladiators mini-skirt in winter, it can get a bit chilly

About the werebears, you should`ve said that in the first place, makes all the difference in the world
I dunno, try it, it should take you, what, five minutes to do it?

 

[Gomurr]

If everyone gangs up on America... I understood that the Empire is the most powerfull one. For now atleast. Anyway, if Chaos can have tons of units, one more for Empire is not that bad. Plus, the Norman swordman and the Reiksguard Knight look really, really good together, and Greatswordmen are above the rolle of simple infantry (forward march, arrows, screaming...figure out the rest for yourself). This way Greatswordmen become elite units of the Empire.

This isn't an everyone gang up situation I was talking about. Ulthuan or Naggaroth or Cathay or Bretonia could each individually defeat the Empire. As such, giving the Empire units to make them more dominant is not true to WH canon. That doesn't mean don't do it, it just means that I don't think adding a unit simply because you'd like to make a the Empire more powerful is appropriate for the mod.

Edit: That being said, I recently stumbled across a reference to "Reiksguard Foot" the description of which said, "Very good and quite inexpensive infantry, the Reiksguard are a common sight on a battlefield."

About aaglo`s ork units... i was reffering to the ones already in the mod, that have been placed in a rather strange way. And for some reason, in my games, Goblins are always one of the strongest, and i haven`t made any changes.

Oh, I understood what you were talking about. I had done that myself when I first changed my greenskins. What I wrote of was a suggestion of how to further diversify the goblins and orcs, as I have done. Of course, if you want them to be essentially the same save in appearance, then my suggestion is pointless.

 

[Stormrage]

Hehe, you edit, I edit: Yeah, it is a good idea! He`s medieval, he`s red...looks like a regular infantry shmoe (look at what Kislev, or Westerland have for infantry, an AoK conversion), awaiting to be slaughtered by my Boyz

Now we have to convince them to do it, cause now we have 2 guys (thats two, not one, but two, and one of them is ancient) saying something is a good idea. Say, gomurr, you are a really neat guy!

I don`t think that I could use WH40k units in this mod... Even the sooside boomma bothers me ... He should be given a barrel of gunpowder instead of a giant (present-day-looking) granade.
My suggestions on them were merelly aesthetic, i like other stuff as it is. Gorbad-axe-smash WAAAAGHHHH

 

[Gomurr]

Why doesn`t he fit with the Empire? He`s medieval, he`s red...looks like a regular infantry shmoe (look at what Kislev, or Westerland have for infantry, an AoK conversion), awaiting to be slaughtered by my Boyz

Empire infantry don't look medieval - they look Renaissance. Empire infantry look like soldiers from the 1400s to 1600s, and the Norman Knight looks, well, like you said - medieval. Plus, you said the unit matches the Reiksguard knights, and that it looks like it should be included due to that. But the Empire is supposed to be like the Holy Roman Empire, which was as far from uniform as you can get. The Holy Roman Empire, and thus WH's Empire, wasn't like Rome where there was a standard military - their army was composed of whatever the individual electors, princes, barons and others sent when the Emperor asked, if they sent anything at all. So a uniform look to the army doesn't really fit the Empire either.

That being said, I did find a reference to "Reiksguard Foot", and they are supposedly a common sight on the battlefield (despite their being no reference to this unit on the WH site). So maybe it would fit in with the Empire, though it really doesn't seem it would in the current version of Warhammer.

 

[Stormrage]

Maybe it wouldn`t fit in the current version of Warhammer... but this is the WH MOD for CIV, and it has 4 eras, and the infantry (feudalism, or steel) appears at the begining of the 2. era, called the Dark ages, and that just screams medieval!
Speaking of Warhammer (weapon), and Holy... Luthor Huss, anyone?

 

[Gomurr]

That still fails to address the fact that adding Reiksguard foot adds an un-Empire-like uniformity to the Imperial army. And while the way ED set up his ages may make it sound like the units should be Medieval, the Empire has never been depicted with an organized, well armored infantry like you suggest. Furthermore, if one were to try to actually depict a medieval type army, you wouldn't have a core of foot knights. Anyone rich enough to be in a suit of armor would have been mounted, and no one would spend much money armoring infantry like the Norman foot knight. I maintain that the unit does not fit the theme of the Imperial Army.

 

[Stormrage]

Then giving this guy to Bretonnia is like a crime? I think this one should go in instead, atleast his helmet is opened, and he looks less knightly.And the Norman has only chainmail, the link shows the spearman version, but its the same dude (and one other thing, about he being red, what you said about the uniforms and everything...R8XFT`s unit doesn`t have Civ color markings on it... so in a way he can only go to Reikland, his whole tunic is just one big Civ color marking. I`m thinking about his Goth swordsman to replace Westerland`s infantry, with AoK gfx, the color fits on them also)... And you agree that the Greatswordsman is not appropriate for mere infantry... Do you have a better suggestion?

 

[Gomurr]

I agree with you about the Italian Foot Knight being Bretonian. In fact, he's already on my list of intended changes, though I haven't gotten to editing Bretonia yet. That Domani could be a good replacement, though. I had been thinking of using it as a Tilean merc of some sort, but it might work well as a Bretonian.

And as for what I would suggest - I would (and probably will, eventually) make it so that Greatswords are a relatively expensive unit that can be produced. To provide cheap infantry, I would do one of two things: either I would create a city improvement, called the recruiting office or something, which would create a relatively weak "Free Company" unit every so often, or; perhaps allow for workers and slaves to be upgraded to a Free Company unit, thereby representing allowing for a cheap militia that can be assembled quickly. Those are just thoughts, though. I haven't gotten around to editing Reikland, so I can't really say the balance would work well. Especially since I'm thinking about making them dependent on Knightly Orders for knights. I'd also have to get around to finding a decent unit to represent the Free Companies, or pestering a unit maker, though they're rarely inclined to listen