Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

[Ahriman]

make them gain EXP as normal then?

Yes. The "does this mean they don't gain xp?" was a genuine question; I wanted to know if that is linked to the racial promotion or separately to the units.

Tomb Guard (replaces Royal guard). Strength 7/9. Curse of Nagash, Eternal Army, Death does not cause War Weariness. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Bodyguard. +25% vs melee units.

This is fine.

Skeleton Light Horsemen (replaces ancient cavalry) Strength 3+1death, 2 moves. Can use wartats/bronze/iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. +25% vs chariots, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs missile cavalry. Curse of Nagash, Eternal Army, Death does not cause War Weariness.
Skeleton Heavy Horsemen (Replaces Lancer). Strength 4/2+2death, 3 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 25%, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs chariots, +50% vs siege units.Curse of Nagash, Eternal Army, Death does not cause War Weariness.

Sounds fine.

(changed to your method. is this ok?)

Sounds good. I have nothing against the strong-in-territory-weak-without, that sounds fun, just using culture to implement it.

Another random thought; maybe the nippon temple dog shouldn't have any upkeep cost?

I think we're looking pretty good designwise now.

The priority is probably then on pulling together what we have and starting to get an alpha up.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I think we're looking pretty good designwise now.

were not quite out of the woods yet, still got Greenskins and Human Chaos Tribes to do

The priority is probably then on pulling together what we have and starting to get an alpha up.

im going to get this started fairly soon i just hope i dont get flooded with untracable/ unfixable errors. eep.

out of curiosity Ahri, Which of the civs look to be your favourite?

 

[Ahriman]

out of curiosity Ahri, Which of the civs look to be your favourite?

Hmm. I don't have *particular* favorites I guess. But in terms of general personal preference of coolness:
I lean towards High elves, dwarves, Araby and Skaven. I quite like the fantasy human versions, and I'm looking forward to playing against AIs with the Eternal Army mechanic.
I kinda dislike chaos dwarves, lizards/amazons, greenskins.

In terms of balance, I think we're probably going to need to come back and revisit some of the earlier factions; the later-designed ones tend to be more heavy weighted with goodies. But thats all about playtest/balancing.

 

[rocklikeafool]

im going to get this started fairly soon i just hope i dont get flooded with untracable/ unfixable errors. eep.

Good luck, man!

 

[Nelia Hawk]

Why not just scrap Necromancers for the Vampires. Leave those to the Tomb Kings. It’s easier, eliminates balance issues, & encourages a difference in magic units.

Necromancer Same stats as Hedge Wizard. starts with necromancy 1
Necromancer Lord Same Stats as Wizard. starts with necromancy 1, 2

i would agree here.
in edition 7 the vampire necromancers are not the strong casters anymore that they were in the 6th edition.
in 7 they dont have a necromancer lord anymore, and can just cast spells 0-2 (necromancy 1).

so atleast the necromancer lord should be taken out.




in edition 7 the necromancers can mount a "chariot" called "corpse cart".
rules are somehow: weak chariot, str2, toughness4, attacks 2D6, armor 5+, regeneration. the corpse cart can cast a spell "miasma of deathly vigor" that is a bound spell and all friendly undeads 12" get "always strike first".
additionaly the corpsecart can buy one of these two:
balefire: enemy wizards in 24" suffer -1 to cast spells.
unholy loadstone: units in 6" around the cart get +1 wound when targeted by invocation (necromancy heal spell 0)

so the suggestion is:
leave necromancers as weak casters (necro1) and add the corpsecart instead of the necromancer lords as weak support chariot. (some medic promotion. maybe a +10% heal when the heal spell is casted on this stack)
or
take out necromancers too and add the corpsecart as (mounted by necromancer). as weak chariot (some medic promotion, and ability to cast necromancy 1)

maybe something like:
Corpse Cart (replaces chariot), Strength 4/3, 1 move. 0-2 firststrikes. Can not get iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units. starts with medic promotion, causes fear, undead, regeneration, and unholy loadstone promotion (= it would grant undead units in the same field the "affected by corpsecart" promotion that grants +0-1 firststrike and +10% heal with necro spell 0)
avaiable with necromancy? (or when necromancers get avaiable)

it could replace the "unfitting":
Skeletal Chariot (replaces Chariot) Strength 4/3, 2 moves. Can get bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units. cause fear. Undead.

mounted necromancer corpse cart version could cast necromancy 1 too.
+some national limit like necromancers?

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Black dragon (replace red dragon) Same as red dragon but half of the fire strength becomes unholy strength. Requires aerie.

in edition 7 the darkelf black dragon breathes poison... so it could be:
Same as red dragon but half of the fire strength becomes unholy strength the other half poison.

basically the fire and poison of dragon and hydra would just swap... hmm
but noone liked to change the hydra from poison to fire... so i guess this wont happen either.


also as darkelf idea:
Couldron of Blood (replaces war chariot, or same slot as chariot? or replaces catapult? (it uses the war machne rules in the tabletop, but that might confuse the AI when its under catapult?),

stats basically same as witchelves... +1unholy and marked as chariot or warmachine.
some national limit too... maybe 5?

str 4 +1unholy +2poison, 1 moves. Can get iron weapons. +25% vs disciple class, 'Frenzied' promotion.
if the couldron of blood kills an enemy unit (or a unit witchelves on the same field) it grants the "blessings of khaine" to a randomly chosen friendly unit on the same field.

blessings of khaine promotion: +1 firststrike, -1str +2unholy, 5% chance to withdraw combat.

or as unique town building?:
+1 happyness, maybe some additional bonus when slaves are sacrified/used in the city, and grants the blessings of khaine to here created units.

but i guess the chariot version that grants a blessing when it kills something could be nice?
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fear and units with fear

i aggree that the most terrifying units should cause terror i.e. a dragon or a greater demon...a skaven bell? a steam tank?

and the 2nd most terrifying ones should get fear... i.e. a black coach? spirits, banshee, a hydra, blood knights, a stegadon?, a chaos spawn?...
maybe a death/necromancy spell (lvl 2 or 3) could cause fear in enemy units.

and all other minor stuff that would get fear in the tabletop (i.e. skeletons, zombies, basic undead knights, minor demons, etc) dont get fear.

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skull catapult

yeah yeah its fine

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No, please unchange them. Nelia, its great to get some ideas and feedback and I appreciate that, but I think you don't have the whole mod design in your head the same way that I do.

also this!
all i suggest are just ideas (mostly based on the tabletop rules/books) and not "this must be in the mod change it now!!!11"
and yeah i have no idea about the whole concept of the mod... you work for years on the mod and know what is aceptable balance wise and what is not, i dont realy know all details.

 

[Ahriman]

Corpse Cart (replaces chariot), Strength 4/3, 1 move. 0-2 firststrikes. Can not get iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units. starts with medic promotion, causes fear, undead, regeneration, and unholy loadstone promotion (= it would grant undead units in the same field the "affected by corpsecart" promotion that grants +0-1 firststrike and +10% heal with necro spell 0)
avaiable with necromancy? (or when necromancers get avaiable)

I don't like stack buffers for vampire counts. This is the direction we have gone with for khemri. Vampire counts should play differently. They have the very powerful vampires, they shouldn't be getting stack buffers too.

We also aren't trying to model a particular edition of tabletop rules, we're trying to capture the feel of the setting in a way that is fun to play and leads to good faction differentiation.

I have no particular problem with a necromancer unit who lacks channeling and can only cast level 1 necromancy spells. It would have a national limit cap (probably 10) like all the other initiate-type units.

I don't care if sylvania get a chariot at all; I'd lean towards no. Lahmia should have chariots though, we're also giving them a middle-eastern feel.

Whether hydras and dragons have poison, fire or unholy is all pretty unimportant.

I'm inclined to make the cauldron of blood a building, maybe surrounding slave sacrifice.

i aggree that the most terrifying units should cause terror

In this mod, fear and terror are purely supernatural effects, and only really belong on units that have some supernatural powers. So a dragon can emit a terrifying aura, but no way a steamtank does.

Here, fear basically makes the units stronger vs units that aren't immune to fear, while terror gives defensive bonuses and scatters defending units.

all i suggest are just ideas (mostly based on the tabletop rules/books) and not "this must be in the mod change it now!!!11"

Understood. New ideas are always worth posting, just be aware that 90%+ will be rejected ;-)
Thats just how it works.

 

[Ahriman]

Just noticed this:

Celestial Temple Replaces temple of Spirituality. +1 happy. +1 influence. can train disciple units up to 10EXP. Disciple units start with Lore of Light 1, Lore of Shadow 1.

I think putting light and shadow magic 1 on some priest units is a good alternative to creating a night and day magic. However, its probably better to put it on some specific units rather than putting it on the temple; otherwise missionary units would end up getting these.
I forget what the spells are for those magics, and how powerful they are.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I think putting light and shadow magic 1 on some priest units is a good alternative to creating a night and day magic.

yay

However, its probably better to put it on some specific units rather than putting it on the temple;

any suggestion on which unit these should go then?

 

[Ahriman]

any suggestion on which unit these should go then?

Well, whatever their religious units are. Their Shaolin monk could have light and shadow 1, and whatever their crusader unit at fanaticism is could have light 2 or shadow 2.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Well, whatever their religious units are. Their Shaolin monk could have light and shadow 1, and whatever their crusader unit at fanaticism is could have light 2 or shadow 2.

ok then ill try remember that weh i get to finalised religion design.

 

[Ahriman]

Oh, and incidentally Jettis are just strong human wrestlers, not giants.

http://www.sharpepointe.com/clivesering4.html
"In Cornwell’s book, the wide stone steps which descend into the dungeon were guarded by Jettis; India’s famous strong men who were capable of dispatching prisoners by twisting their heads to wring their necks, or driving iron nails through their skulls with just the palms of their hands. These men were really employed by the Sultan to turn executions into a combination of ghoulish entertainment and a show of power."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpe's_Challenge
" The use of jettis (Indian strongmen) is borrowed from the novels, where they carry out similar acts of violence on the command of the Sultan, such as the execution by pounding nails into prisoners' heads using only their bare hands, as depicted in the screenplay."

http://www.kaputa.com/sports/old_sports/mallavapora.htm
"In india "Mushti"= fist "Yuddhe"=Conflict, and Fist fighters Were termed "mushti Yuddham" "All-in" fighting akin to the "Pankrateon" of the ancient of the ancient Greeks Was practiced and Comprised "Guti Haramba" or hitting, and "Pora Haramba" or grappling, a Science Practiced even today Among the Telegu Jettis."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-the-mighty-wrestlers/articleshow/4680666.cms
"During the age of valour and vigour, wrestling was an acclaimed sports encouraged by the royalty. Mastering the art of wrestling fetched recognition and Jettis could hardly give it a miss."

http://books.google.com/books?id=SX...esult&ct=result&resnum=9#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Just for example.

 

[rocklikeafool]

They had this before, but it should be a minor 5% bonus mostly for flavor. Otherwise it makes them into superior city attackers, which is kindof wrong.

I spose. I could argue that as the main Druchii slaver unit, they’re good city attackers. But screw it. I don’t really care a whole lot. 5% it is.

YEAH…except we have to consider balance here.

Quite frankly, why do they have a Chariot at all? I can’t find anywhere in the fluff where they do have a chariot. But it’s not a big deal. Keep Cold One Chariots, without fear.

 

[Ahriman]

Something I just noticed in Cathay:

Celestial Knights (replaces Knights.) Strength 10/7. 2 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. 25% vs archers. Flank attack vs melee units.

Knights shouldn't have flank attack vs melee, I think its probably too powerful for anything to have, as we discussed. Also, they should have Highborn.

I could argue that as the main Druchii slaver unit, they’re good city attackers.

Slave raiders don't normally attack large cities in frontal assaults, they raid outlying settlements.

Quite frankly, why do they have a Chariot at all? I can’t find anywhere in the fluff where they do have a chariot.

I would be fine with dark elves losing chariots.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I would be fine with dark elves losing chariots.

Well, as long as PL or someone else doesn't object, I'm removing them. So, speak now or forever lose Druchii Cold Ones Chariots.

 

[Ahriman]

Wait for feedback from PL, he might have a preference.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Doing so.




Also, NeliaHawk, if you have any editions of the Druchii Army Book with Cold Ones Chariots, you should post em the Unit Stats/Info now. Thanks.



I wanna make sure (1 I'm NOT removing a decent fluff unit & (2 no one cares if I do remove it.

 

[deadliver]

All I know is there is a Dark Elf War Chariot boxed set, so why not keep them? Also on the subject of chariots, why did Cathay lose them? The chinese used chariots (or at least a word translated into english that means chariot) in warfare like a lot of other people.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Well, as long as PL or someone else doesn't object, I'm removing them. So, speak now or forever lose Druchii Cold Ones Chariots.

im indifferent Darkelves are your baby RLAF

Knights shouldn't have flank attack vs melee, I think its probably too powerful for anything to have, as we discussed. Also, they should have Highborn.

fixed.

Is there anything else that needs changing before i move onto chaos?

 

[deadliver]

im indifferent Darkelves are your baby RLAF



fixed.

Is there anything else that needs changing before i move onto chaos?

Cathayan chariots?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

im not sure why cathay chariots arent there. id be fine to add them. ill wait for ahri's oppinion.