Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
But Catapult work differant than cannon.
Differant loading, differand noice, differant bullet track.
Differant loading, differand noice, differant bullet track.
Warlords: Total Realism 2.0
- Thread starter Houman
- Start date
Anaztazioch
Isnt it the same with all upgrades ? following your conclusions, how could a frigate upgrade to destroyer ? or cavalery to gunship ? horses wont turn in to iron rotors.. but as spartan mentioned, you are paying to re-equip your men with the lates stuff, since they get new equipment its only resanable thaqt they also recive proper training.. quetcha should upgrade to elite quecha, or the name should be changed..
Isnt it the same with all upgrades ? following your conclusions, how could a frigate upgrade to destroyer ? or cavalery to gunship ? horses wont turn in to iron rotors.. but as spartan mentioned, you are paying to re-equip your men with the lates stuff, since they get new equipment its only resanable thaqt they also recive proper training.. quetcha should upgrade to elite quecha, or the name should be changed..
HHawk72
Chieftain
Taking a unit such as the quecha (henceforth known as "Q"s until I learn how to spell it) and upgrading them to an elite version is a matter of two things--training and equipment, both of which translate into gold in Civ4 terms. *shrug* The single most important element of any military force is its people--intelligent, adaptive, tool-using primates capable of taking lessons they've learned and applying those lessons in an abstract fashion to a new combat paradigm.
Same thing with canoes --> galleons (or whatever). In this case, the learning curve is steeper and the difference in equipment is great, so I'd say the equivalent gold cost should be much higher. But swordsmen --> macemen should be almost a negligible cost. They're still armored infantry units which obey the same rules of military theory *insert pithy Sun Tzu quote here*. The only difference is that their weaponry requires a bit of getting used to and is more versatile than their previous set (i.e., hammers, maces, and axes are better at penetrating heavy armor plate than swords, which is why they were better for battling armored knights).
Catapults work a bit differently than cannons, but the principles are still the same. The main difference is that cannons can be used for direct fire, while catapults are indirect fire only. A skilled artilleryman is going to be able to adapt to that new technology quite quickly, and probably do so with a big smile on his face.
Same thing with canoes --> galleons (or whatever). In this case, the learning curve is steeper and the difference in equipment is great, so I'd say the equivalent gold cost should be much higher. But swordsmen --> macemen should be almost a negligible cost. They're still armored infantry units which obey the same rules of military theory *insert pithy Sun Tzu quote here*. The only difference is that their weaponry requires a bit of getting used to and is more versatile than their previous set (i.e., hammers, maces, and axes are better at penetrating heavy armor plate than swords, which is why they were better for battling armored knights).
Catapults work a bit differently than cannons, but the principles are still the same. The main difference is that cannons can be used for direct fire, while catapults are indirect fire only. A skilled artilleryman is going to be able to adapt to that new technology quite quickly, and probably do so with a big smile on his face.
Spartan117
Immortal
Anaztazioch said:
except those catapult working men may have a better idea of how seige weapons should work and how to use them effectively. they may be able to catch on more quickly. Basically the seige weapons are their expertise.
tHat is probably why in vanilla civ, exp is lost when an upgrade occurs to make up the fact that canons are different the catapults. This represents the catapult guys are learning how to use canons effectively and are not as experienced with the new equipment.
Different noise???
@noid
I dont know maybe that the class of quecha soldiers were not used anymore. Then years later the shortswordsmen class was then formed to make the newly reinstated "elite quecha" class of units.
Actually i think the name was generic. I dont think any of their soldiers were called elite quecha, but i am not completely sure as I dont know too much of incan warfare.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
@ HHawk72
When did Sun Tsu live ?
And how many nations in World used skillfull warriors ? Poland for instance, used nobles as warriors, becouse they had money for equipment. So was in France, Germany. Mongols before Tamujin also had their "nobles" (high rank, high born) were the warriors, other were peasants, village upkeepers. It was Tamujin, who changed that, made army out of storng and capable to fight instead for rich or sons of warriors.
As for Japan, there was caste system as well as Feudalism. Caste described who you are. Peasant, Bushi, Samurai, Emperor. Bushi is lower than Samurai, as they were only warriors. Samurai could become minister or merchant/artist. There were also ronins. Who do you think clans/Japans army was made of ? Of Ronins who were actually strongest/most skillfull warriors that did not want to obey a master who cant even carry a sword ? Or of Bushis and Samurais, who were given privillage of fighting in the name of daimyo/shogun/emperor.
In acient era it was not skill that allowed you to become a warrior. It was whos son are you. There are tales of Greek peasants, that was declined to become a soldier, therefore he become a refuge or fighter in some tournaments and sometimes such peasants defeated generals or generals sons. But even doing that didnt gave them permistion of becoming a soldier, as generals and soldiers hated that peasant even more. Called him a cheater.
This way i dont belive in Incas the structure was "advanced" like Tamujins. More it depend on birth. And thats why it is hard to train quetcha to become elite quetcha. And even so quetcha is skilled allready. Elite is even more skillfull. And skills have this to them, that it is faster to posess basics and advanced, but takes 10 times more time to become master (thats why you need more xp points to advance in lvl)
When did Sun Tsu live ?
And how many nations in World used skillfull warriors ? Poland for instance, used nobles as warriors, becouse they had money for equipment. So was in France, Germany. Mongols before Tamujin also had their "nobles" (high rank, high born) were the warriors, other were peasants, village upkeepers. It was Tamujin, who changed that, made army out of storng and capable to fight instead for rich or sons of warriors.
As for Japan, there was caste system as well as Feudalism. Caste described who you are. Peasant, Bushi, Samurai, Emperor. Bushi is lower than Samurai, as they were only warriors. Samurai could become minister or merchant/artist. There were also ronins. Who do you think clans/Japans army was made of ? Of Ronins who were actually strongest/most skillfull warriors that did not want to obey a master who cant even carry a sword ? Or of Bushis and Samurais, who were given privillage of fighting in the name of daimyo/shogun/emperor.
In acient era it was not skill that allowed you to become a warrior. It was whos son are you. There are tales of Greek peasants, that was declined to become a soldier, therefore he become a refuge or fighter in some tournaments and sometimes such peasants defeated generals or generals sons. But even doing that didnt gave them permistion of becoming a soldier, as generals and soldiers hated that peasant even more. Called him a cheater.
This way i dont belive in Incas the structure was "advanced" like Tamujins. More it depend on birth. And thats why it is hard to train quetcha to become elite quetcha. And even so quetcha is skilled allready. Elite is even more skillfull. And skills have this to them, that it is faster to posess basics and advanced, but takes 10 times more time to become master (thats why you need more xp points to advance in lvl)
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
noid said:
Yes horses doesnt change into gunship. You eat horses and empire gives you a gunship... but do you ride gunshio on its back ? And say Eeehaa! to amke it move faster ?
And note that Canada has(or atleast had) cavalary when world know how to nuke. Why was the cavalary ? Becouse canada didnt have money ? Or becouse they are unupgradale ? Or its some kind of a nations "symbol".
HHawk72
Chieftain
Sun Tzu was Chinese, but certain military concepts are immutable, which is why he is required reading in every military force today.
Yes, many warrior classes are class / caste based, but Civ4 isn't set up for that sort of precision; you have to abstract the idea of what a military unit actually is to a certain degree, in order to simplify it to this level. Besides--many a man in many cultures was MADE a noble and therefore a member of the warrior class / caste BECAUSE he happened to be very, very good at hitting people with sticks and other implements of destruction.
And I don't know if it's Warlords or the TR mod, but as the Incas I'm seeing Qs (as warrior replacements) and then later on Elite Qs (as swordsman replacements with iron and Iron Working). Of course, I'm past this now and making macemen, but that's what I was dealing with. Qs could not upgrade to Elite Qs which, all other arguments aside, would seem to make more sense than catapults upgrading to cannons (though both are valid, in my opinion).
Edited: I don't know anything at all about Incan culture, so I have no ability to comment on the cultural standing of their warriors.
Yes, many warrior classes are class / caste based, but Civ4 isn't set up for that sort of precision; you have to abstract the idea of what a military unit actually is to a certain degree, in order to simplify it to this level. Besides--many a man in many cultures was MADE a noble and therefore a member of the warrior class / caste BECAUSE he happened to be very, very good at hitting people with sticks and other implements of destruction.
And I don't know if it's Warlords or the TR mod, but as the Incas I'm seeing Qs (as warrior replacements) and then later on Elite Qs (as swordsman replacements with iron and Iron Working). Of course, I'm past this now and making macemen, but that's what I was dealing with. Qs could not upgrade to Elite Qs which, all other arguments aside, would seem to make more sense than catapults upgrading to cannons (though both are valid, in my opinion).
Edited: I don't know anything at all about Incan culture, so I have no ability to comment on the cultural standing of their warriors.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
This Is Not Civ Iv This Is Tr !!!
Now shush !!! im watching Stueala Bukarest - Real Madrid !!!
Now shush !!! im watching Stueala Bukarest - Real Madrid !!!
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
It seems I have neglated the Natives a bit. True we have now beside the Footknight also the swordswordsman. Maybe Elite Q should replace shortswordsman (less combat values and cheaper obviously)...maybe it should stay. Need an analysis...
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
@ Houman
If you change it to shortswordsman, than all mine, spartan117, hhawk72 and noid talk was pointless... As making it shortswordsman will lower their strength, and will mean they are not as "elite" skilled.
And I would not be my self if i dont ask....
What the heck is swordswordsman ?!?
If you change it to shortswordsman, than all mine, spartan117, hhawk72 and noid talk was pointless...
As making it shortswordsman will lower their strength, and will mean they are not as "elite" skilled.And I would not be my self if i dont ask....
What the heck is swordswordsman ?!?
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
Anaztazioch said:@ Houman
If you change it to shortswordsman, than all mine, spartan117, hhawk72 and noid talk was pointless...
And I would not be my self if i dont ask....
What the heck is swordswordsman ?!?
hehe I meant shortsowrdsman. Sorry I didn't mean to change it. I haven;t read all the discussion in this topic yet. And I always do read first everything before I make any decision. Topics I never have read (lack of time) are also Archer topic for example.
Anaztazioch you dont ride gunships on "their" backs saying eehhaa, and you also dont raise sails on destroyers.. but the role they have on the battlefield is somewhat similiar (gunship <-> cavalry) same with frigates / destroyers, catapults/cannons etc..
Anaztazioch said:@ Houman
If you change it to shortswordsman, than all mine, spartan117, hhawk72 and noid talk was pointless...
And I would not be my self if i dont ask....
What the heck is swordswordsman ?!?
If you look at the roman legions, the gladius was pretty much standard issue. The gladius is pretty much a shortsword. Pretty good for close up fighting, and you can wing it around a lot longer than you can the bigger swords. Would say they'd be useful in a city. Also, they're more maneuverable than your typical swordsman.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
@ storm6436
REmember original legionarie ? str = 8 as swordsman. In TR his str is 6.
Now making elite quetcha replace shortswordsman (old hypaspist) instead for swordsman whith out changing his str. This would make elite Q be much stronger than other shortswordsmans.
Shortswordsman has 4 str
Elite Q would have 6 str
Got my pint ?
REmember original legionarie ? str = 8 as swordsman. In TR his str is 6.
Now making elite quetcha replace shortswordsman (old hypaspist) instead for swordsman whith out changing his str. This would make elite Q be much stronger than other shortswordsmans.
Shortswordsman has 4 str
Elite Q would have 6 str
Got my pint ?
Spartan117
Immortal
Anaztazioch said:
the strength could always be changed. So if the "elite quecha" were to replace the shortswordsmen, the strength would change accordingly.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
... read it all spartan117... you might learn why i have posted that
Noticed some oddness, but don't know if it's been submitted or not because I've had some odd working hours the last 2 weeks:
City razing - I razed a 9 pop city in 1 turn, I swear this used to take 3-4 in regular TR.
Holy cities - More of a question than a problem because I usually avoided religions until I hit Christianity (for Crusaders) and stayed with it until I hit Free Religion. I nabbed Zoroasters, Buddhism, and Christianity; got the +gold shrines for all 3 (yay!) but I've noticed that after a decent amount of time, I'll lose the zoro and buddhist holy cities. I figure this is the 30-ish turn limit for non-state religion, so my question is: if I swap religions around every 25-30 turns, will I be able to keep the shrines (and the lovely income I get from them?)
City razing - I razed a 9 pop city in 1 turn, I swear this used to take 3-4 in regular TR.
Holy cities - More of a question than a problem because I usually avoided religions until I hit Christianity (for Crusaders) and stayed with it until I hit Free Religion. I nabbed Zoroasters, Buddhism, and Christianity; got the +gold shrines for all 3 (yay!) but I've noticed that after a decent amount of time, I'll lose the zoro and buddhist holy cities. I figure this is the 30-ish turn limit for non-state religion, so my question is: if I swap religions around every 25-30 turns, will I be able to keep the shrines (and the lovely income I get from them?)
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
[General]
;
; defines the population limit of a city which causes it to be destroyed when razing process is active
; default = 3
Raze City Pop Limit = 3
;
; defines the value the city population is reduced each turn in razing mode
; default = 2
Raze City Pop Decrement = 2
;
; defines the number of city buildings are destroyed ech raze turn
; default = 2
Raze City Building Decrement = 2
;
; defines the name suffix for a city in active raze mode
; default = !R!
Raze City Name Suffix Active = !R!
;
; defines the name suffix for a city in paused raze mode
; default = ?R?
Raze City Name Suffix Pause = ?R?
Seems everything should work. I have no problems whith razing cities.
;
; defines the population limit of a city which causes it to be destroyed when razing process is active
; default = 3
Raze City Pop Limit = 3
;
; defines the value the city population is reduced each turn in razing mode
; default = 2
Raze City Pop Decrement = 2
;
; defines the number of city buildings are destroyed ech raze turn
; default = 2
Raze City Building Decrement = 2
;
; defines the name suffix for a city in active raze mode
; default = !R!
Raze City Name Suffix Active = !R!
;
; defines the name suffix for a city in paused raze mode
; default = ?R?
Raze City Name Suffix Pause = ?R?
Seems everything should work. I have no problems whith razing cities.
Mexico
TR senior programmer
beta 3 is delayed (i am very sick and houman is very busy at work, so we have onle few hours for development)
- solved CTD in trading screen (favorite religion mod)
- there is new unique GP for civs (too much persons - more than 300, needed to categorize, update pictures etc... ), now correctly diplayed
- implemented FlyingMod
- implemented new inquisitor mod (AI now know to use this)
- some new unique (ethnicaly diverse) units:
- new model of bismarck battleship
- yamato battleship for japan
- new air units - need know your ideas baout new units, see my post in Air Units thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4674340&postcount=16
Mexico
- solved CTD in trading screen (favorite religion mod)
- there is new unique GP for civs (too much persons - more than 300, needed to categorize, update pictures etc... ), now correctly diplayed
- implemented FlyingMod
- implemented new inquisitor mod (AI now know to use this)
- some new unique (ethnicaly diverse) units:
- new model of bismarck battleship
- yamato battleship for japan
- new air units - need know your ideas baout new units, see my post in Air Units thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4674340&postcount=16
Mexico
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