Gelion
Retired Captain
Yeltsin. Gorbachev and the gang have done enough appologies in their time. Those who wanted to hear - heard.
Was life really that bad in the Soviet Union?
- Thread starter CCA
- Start date
colontos
King
Apologies = nothing.
Gelion
Retired Captain
Exactly!..
Pokurcz
Emperor
"Justice is what is missing from the Soviet equation."
In deed!
“I don't believe that Russia today or Putin are evil.”
You should ask a Chechnyan. Or take a look at that theatre hostage situation, who killed the victims? The Russians themselves, that’s who!
Or that school hostage situation. The Chechnyan bombs didn’t go off, the Russian army fired grenades at the gymnasium roof.
With that level of lack of respect for human life, of their own citizens none the less, still practised, how can Russia ever become a true democracy or at least a follower of basic human rights.
“Yes, sadly, Russia is not free yet from Soviet mentality...”
You can God damn bet your ass that is the case.
In deed!
“I don't believe that Russia today or Putin are evil.”
You should ask a Chechnyan. Or take a look at that theatre hostage situation, who killed the victims? The Russians themselves, that’s who!
Or that school hostage situation. The Chechnyan bombs didn’t go off, the Russian army fired grenades at the gymnasium roof.
With that level of lack of respect for human life, of their own citizens none the less, still practised, how can Russia ever become a true democracy or at least a follower of basic human rights.
“Yes, sadly, Russia is not free yet from Soviet mentality...”
You can God damn bet your ass that is the case.
Propeos Tzu
Chieftain
Wow. This is the best thread I've come across.
I believe that the Russian Revolution of 1917 was a major breakthrough in world history and politics. Too bad it didn't go well in the end. I think that this was because Stalin focussed more on having more nuclear arms than the U.S.A. instead of the starving people in 'his' country.
However, the pictures of the U.S.S.R. makes me think again. Could somebody confirm whether they are propaganda pictures or not (I'm talking about the majority of the pictures)?
I believe that the Russian Revolution of 1917 was a major breakthrough in world history and politics. Too bad it didn't go well in the end. I think that this was because Stalin focussed more on having more nuclear arms than the U.S.A. instead of the starving people in 'his' country.
However, the pictures of the U.S.S.R. makes me think again. Could somebody confirm whether they are propaganda pictures or not (I'm talking about the majority of the pictures)?
Gelion
Retired Captain
I'm saying again, this is no propaganda.
Pokurcz
Emperor
Some of those pics are posed, and propaganda, most of them most probably depict reality as it was.
The whole set does seem to be biased towards nostalgia, dough, and to Moscow, seemingly.
Despite that there are instances of stark reality:
And it is difficult to convey the menace in this sight to a westerner:
I remember once when I was visiting Poland as a six year old and saw two officers of the "Milicja" some sixty meters away. When I stared at them and asked if they where Policemen my father said with a urgency in his voice not to look at them. I remember the fear in my fathers voice quite clearly. Subtle fear.
The whole set does seem to be biased towards nostalgia, dough, and to Moscow, seemingly.
Despite that there are instances of stark reality:
And it is difficult to convey the menace in this sight to a westerner:
I remember once when I was visiting Poland as a six year old and saw two officers of the "Milicja" some sixty meters away. When I stared at them and asked if they where Policemen my father said with a urgency in his voice not to look at them. I remember the fear in my fathers voice quite clearly. Subtle fear.
Gelion
Retired Captain
I'm sorry, but you give an impression of a fearful and sick person. You have NO first hand experience of living in USSR. I do.
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
A fearful and sick person? I have exactly the same feelings as Pokurcz, and so does my father, and my teachers, and my friends, and all the writers, intellectuals and people that I know. We are all degenerates, sick persons then? I've never met one single person to say Communism was good. With one exception: I met 2 ex-members of the Communist party.
Gelion
Retired Captain
Who the hell is talking about communism?!!
Read what the guy is writing. Look up the comments under the few picures he selected. No one is arguing about Communism and how good it was (or wasn't). However I'm tired of all the bullcrap of how "life was bad in the Soviet Union" and how Russians should appologise every 5 minutes on every corner. I dont mind intelligent discussions and constructive search for solutions. I'll tell you more as far as my political orientation goes I'm leaning towards a Monarchy (liberal or constitutional as you will). I would have joined the Whites in 1917. However USSR was my country and I am not about to let any immature revenge seeker to **** it and blame my nation for things that happened to us too.
Read what the guy is writing. Look up the comments under the few picures he selected. No one is arguing about Communism and how good it was (or wasn't). However I'm tired of all the bullcrap of how "life was bad in the Soviet Union" and how Russians should appologise every 5 minutes on every corner. I dont mind intelligent discussions and constructive search for solutions. I'll tell you more as far as my political orientation goes I'm leaning towards a Monarchy (liberal or constitutional as you will). I would have joined the Whites in 1917. However USSR was my country and I am not about to let any immature revenge seeker to **** it and blame my nation for things that happened to us too.
Pokurcz
Emperor
Man how much more can you take things out of context you nationalistic ad hominem wielder, you!
Bad boy! Bad!
(sorry for the rest, I just let the insult get to me)
Bad boy! Bad!
(sorry for the rest, I just let the insult get to me)
Every country has its dark side, usually perpetrated by those who are dead and gone. We must learn from history, but we must not let it define us.
Pokurcz
Emperor
"you give an impression of a fearful and sick person."
"I am not about to let any immature revenge seeker"
I wouldn't call that first citation "mature" on your behalf.
Because: "Russians should appologise every 5 minutes on every corner." is hardly what I am asking for.
Its rather stuff like your signature: "Year 2012: Czech military has won a bet over Poles: their "nuclear shield" held out 5 minutes longer." (very mature by the way) that speaks loads about you as a Russian automatically feeling your nation singled out as an enemy of Nato.
Nobody is claiming That Russia is an enemy, yet you as a Russsian automaticaly react as i f that was the only plausible reason. Why is there still a "us and them" mentality in Russia?
Could it be that you are still thinking of yourself as some sort of Empire unrighteously dethroned? Why is that empire so important to you? Why cant you just relax and concentrate on first getting your one homeland in order before you try to influence countries in your vicinity by blackmail? Why the blackmail?
Clearly there is something seriously wrong with how the rulers of Russia think!
Clearly they and a lot of the population are still stuck in grand visions of old.
Clearly they only see greatness in their past.
Clearly they need to get a good solid look on their past and realise that it is time to leave imperialism behind and that there are other things than military might and a biased picture of history that defines a nations greatness.
That is what Russia needs to work on, if ever to become seen as normal.
Just look at the Americans, so full of them selfs and their "obvious" greatness and still almost everybody hates them.
"I am not about to let any immature revenge seeker"
I wouldn't call that first citation "mature" on your behalf.
Because: "Russians should appologise every 5 minutes on every corner." is hardly what I am asking for.
Its rather stuff like your signature: "Year 2012: Czech military has won a bet over Poles: their "nuclear shield" held out 5 minutes longer." (very mature by the way) that speaks loads about you as a Russian automatically feeling your nation singled out as an enemy of Nato.
Nobody is claiming That Russia is an enemy, yet you as a Russsian automaticaly react as i f that was the only plausible reason. Why is there still a "us and them" mentality in Russia?
Could it be that you are still thinking of yourself as some sort of Empire unrighteously dethroned? Why is that empire so important to you? Why cant you just relax and concentrate on first getting your one homeland in order before you try to influence countries in your vicinity by blackmail? Why the blackmail?
Clearly there is something seriously wrong with how the rulers of Russia think!
Clearly they and a lot of the population are still stuck in grand visions of old.
Clearly they only see greatness in their past.
Clearly they need to get a good solid look on their past and realise that it is time to leave imperialism behind and that there are other things than military might and a biased picture of history that defines a nations greatness.
That is what Russia needs to work on, if ever to become seen as normal.
Just look at the Americans, so full of them selfs and their "obvious" greatness and still almost everybody hates them.
Illdisposed
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2006
- Messages
- 73
This very quote emphasizes common ignorance and lack of comprehension that are unfortunately out there. Just for you to know, the USSR was not a communist state. It was called Union of Soviet and Socialist Republics for a reason; it was a socialist state aspiring for communism. If you read Marx, you will find these stages of development of human relations through history: Primitive Communism, Slavery, Feudalism, Capitalism,Socialism,Pre-Communism, Communism.If you associate communism or socialism with tyranny, totalitarianism, or Sauron and his Nazghuls, then you don't fully understand what you are talking about. The Soviet Union was an attempt to implement in practice the ideas of communism, as an alternative to capitalism.Yes, it was an experiment; and yes, it was not successful. There were mistakes and they are recognized. However, please keep in mind that USSR in 20s, 30s,40s,50s,60s, 70s and 80s was a very different entity in political, social, economical and even ideological respects.
I suggest for those of you that associate communism with fascism, read a bit from Owen, Fourier, Saint-Simon, Hegel and Marx. It is very rewarding.We need to be circumspect in our approach to the understanding of history, instead of simply denying the "other" points of view.
Oh, and by the way, none of those comments, posted in the forum the original poster brought these pictures from, are pejorative.
I understand Gelion, my parents had different experiences and no, they werent members of communist party and they are voting ODS (most right-wing party in Czech parliament).
I think that problem is that we are trying comparise different countries and different eras. What I know, the Poland war poorer but more free than Czechoslovakia. Romania was leaded by Ceauşescu who was similiar to Albanian Hoxha. USSR was maybe trying improve conditions in main cities.
I think that problem is that we are trying comparise different countries and different eras. What I know, the Poland war poorer but more free than Czechoslovakia. Romania was leaded by Ceauşescu who was similiar to Albanian Hoxha. USSR was maybe trying improve conditions in main cities.
Pokurcz
Emperor
"If you associate communism or socialism with tyranny, totalitarianism, or Sauron and his Nazghuls, then you don't fully understand what you are talking about."
I certainly do not. I associate Russia with evil, because Russia has done a lot more Evil internationally and nationally than good and more so than any other country, including Germany, Japan or the USA.
I certainly do not. I associate Russia with evil, because Russia has done a lot more Evil internationally and nationally than good and more so than any other country, including Germany, Japan or the USA.
Gelion
Retired Captain
Thanks for that and I also see that you understand the differences and try to differentiate between propaganda and reality
Just on a side note, my signature is not directed at Czechs (all Czechs (oh and Slovaks) in my life are great people and I love handing out with them) but rather a certain group of people, minded in a certain way
.
Pokurcz
Emperor
I do not understand what kind of problem anyone could have with this peace of text of mine:
"I remember once when I was visiting Poland as a six year old and saw two officers of the "Milicja" some sixty meters away. When I stared at them and asked if they where Policemen my father said with a urgency in his voice not to look at them. I remember the fear in my fathers voice quite clearly. Subtle fear."
It is a crystal clear memory of mine that I believe perfectly describes the situation, even in the eighties, and how a lot of people felt in those days.
It is the essence of the feeling of oppression that is really difficult to describe completely.
As I understand it Gelion sees this as some sort of irrational fear that he does not understand.
I can only draw a parallel to the physical aversion my fathers mother fealt at the sight of someone in a SS uniform, it is a matter of embodiment of the opression and the fear of physical harm closely associated. It is a subtle kind of fear, as I wrote, difficult to convey.
"I remember once when I was visiting Poland as a six year old and saw two officers of the "Milicja" some sixty meters away. When I stared at them and asked if they where Policemen my father said with a urgency in his voice not to look at them. I remember the fear in my fathers voice quite clearly. Subtle fear."
It is a crystal clear memory of mine that I believe perfectly describes the situation, even in the eighties, and how a lot of people felt in those days.
It is the essence of the feeling of oppression that is really difficult to describe completely.
As I understand it Gelion sees this as some sort of irrational fear that he does not understand.
I can only draw a parallel to the physical aversion my fathers mother fealt at the sight of someone in a SS uniform, it is a matter of embodiment of the opression and the fear of physical harm closely associated. It is a subtle kind of fear, as I wrote, difficult to convey.
Pokurcz
Emperor
"not directed at Czechs" "and Slovaks"
Well that leaves only one Central Slavic people...
Well that leaves only one Central Slavic people...
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