Tavenier
King
True. But what nation does have a perfect educational system?
I do like it that in our schools the history books write about the Dutch situation during the Roman Empire, Napoleon, WW2, etc.
Was this really necessary?
- Thread starter Del Pino
- Start date
True. But what nation does have a perfect educational system?
I do like it that in our schools the history books write about the Dutch situation during the Roman Empire, Napoleon, WW2, etc.
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
Let's try a little experiment, shall we? Pick a nice, clear, starry night with a full moon, and go outside (yes, that means leaving Civ IV for a moment, I know. Be strong!). Now, name five features on the Moon.
Unless you are an astronomy major, the chances are that you will fail miserably, regardless of your level of education, country of birth, nationality, gender, race, ethnic group, sexual orientation, favorite junk food, or taste in underwear. People see the Moon their whole lives, and they don't know jack about it. This is because most cultures don't consider the features of the Moon to be required knowledge for their "educated" citizens. It's not in the "canon" (see Snow's "Two Cultures" for a more general discussion of this).
Different countries have different canons. Let's assume for the sake of an argument that most Americans don't know what the capital of Madagascar is or who's prime minister in Denmark. Well, no. It's not in the canon. American geography and politics is, though, and some Canadian geography is, and there is lots of that.
In other words, this is not an American problem. It's a universal problem.
It turns out that most Germans can't name the Great Lakes or correctly put them in the sequence going from west to east. They are confused by the state of Washington and Washington D.C., are confused that New Mexico is not in Mexico, can't pronounce "Arkansas", think that San Francisco is the capital of California, think the Grand Canyon is in Colorado (because of the river), are amazed by the size of the Navajo Nation, are shocked that each state has it's own army (the National Guard), can't spell Massachusetts or Tennessee, and don't know that New York is a state as well as a city (yes, these are all real-life examples, I'm an American living in Germany).
Why? Because American geography is not in the German canon. And why should it be? Most Germans don't need to know why there are two Kansas Cities any more than most Americans need to know the name of that tiny country squished in between Switzerland and Austria, or the name of its capital.
Picking out Americans as being especially stupid on geography is, well, stupid at best and most often a symptom of America-bashing. That was all the rage in Europe the last couple of years, and is only now slowly dying down. For Firaxis to engage it in is bad taste, bad business sense, a disrespect to the American soldiers serving in that region at this moment, and just about as funny as jokes about those Germans who think that "hispanic" is a race.
Can we end this discussion now? At least until we see the full text of the Civilopedia and know if Firaxis has corrected what I can only hope was the result of writing under the influence of too much beer or too little sleep.
In the meantime, here's a tip: That big crater on the bottom is named "Tycho". And no, I didn't learn that in school.
Indeed, I can say I was confused when someone talked about Washington being in the West and when I heard the Simpons parody of On the Town ("New York, New York") I just assumed they were naming the city twice for effect. 
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
I was with you til this. Firaxis did not single out "Americans as being especially stupid on geography". They simply noted that most Americans have a blind spot with regards to Middle eastern history/geography/culture. Which, regardless of whether or not every other culture on the face of the planet sucks at geography also, is no less true.
If I say "Wow, Bob, you're really smart" does that mean that I am implying that no one else is smart? No.
And then, to make the leap from there to claiming that this is "a disrespect to the American soldiers serving in that region" is just. . . I don't even have words for what it is. And why single out soldiers as being disrespected? What about the sailors and the airmen? Since you aren't defending them, you obviously feel that they were not being disrespected. . .so, what - you think it's OK to say that sailors and airmen suck at geography?
America bashing? Stop it. The original comment was neither snide nor malicious. Could they have said something else? Sure - and now they have done so.
RE: The moon - I once had a reporter from a nationally recognized newspaper ask me "If the moon phase in the USA is 'full', what would it be in Iraq?"
This is inaccurate.
The exact quote was "it occupies the blind spot Americans have for pretty much everything between Greece and China". That does not have the word 'most' in it.
IMO that one word makes a lot of difference in cases like this, but I understand many will consider it a moot point.
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
OK. "Americans". Does that mean "all"? "Some"? "Many"? "Most"? It's still a generalization, generally taken to mean many, most, or typically.
When the Sierra Club announces it's support for a given candidate, does that mean every member of the Sierra club supports that candidate? No, it's a generalization.
Should Firaxis have put that statement on their site? no, and they took it down.
taken to mean many, most, or typically. When the Sierra Club announces it's support for a given candidate, does that mean every member of the Sierra club supports that candidate? No, it's a generalization.
Should Firaxis have put that statement on their site? no, and they took it down.
I cant let this one go unchallenged
I'd be willing to bet money that the average Australian knows more about Turkey and the Ottoman Empire than the average American. Australia does after all have a national holiday that involves that country and thousands of Australians visit Turkey every year on the 25th of April
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
I had gone into this in a different post, but that's a few hundred entries back, so to recap: If you had said a blind spot about African geography, or the finer parts of Eastern Europe, there would be no contest. But the original, now deleted quote singled out (!) Americans as being ignorant about "everything between Greece and China".
Now, let's get out a map, shall we?
Because that covers Israel, which America has very close cultural, economic and military ties to; Iraq, which the U.S. invaded, and where thousands of American soldiers lost their lives; Iran, which is the most vocal and arguably vicious enemy of the U.S. at the moment and very well might be building an atomic bomb for use against Americans; Afghanistan, where there are thousands of American and Nato soldiers are fighting and dying while in combat against radical Islam; Pakistan, where the airspace seems to be saturated with U.S. Air Force Predator drones. I think it is fair to say that there is no region in the world where the U.S. is more engaged at the moment, for better or worse, than "between Greece and China".
And Firaxis did not write something to the effect that "nobody knows about geography". You are right, that would have been fine (and true). No, they singled out Americans as being ignorant of the one region in the world that has been the focus of American foreign and military policy for at least the past ten years, where the attacks of 911 were thought up and planned, and where thousands of American soldiers (and allies like the British or Canadians) are spilling blood in the sand this very minute.
Intentional or not, that turns this little line into a Class A political statement.
What Firaxis was implying here, intentionally or not, is that Americans do not understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; that they have no idea of the situation in Iraq; that they don't know anything about Afghan culture; that they are ignorant of Iranian politics and culture; that they, by continuation of this logic, don't know themselves why they are sending soldiers into these conflicts "between Greece and China", and, taken to the final conclusion, that those soldiers are dying without good reason.
Tell me again why I and the other Americans here shouldn't be pissed about that.
Because the Americans who are against these wars have a very clear and informed idea of why they are against them; the Americans that are for these wars also have a very clear and informed idea of why they are for them. We can debate the logic, legality, and moral reasoning behind these conflicts. But to say we as Americans don't care enough to be informed about them is offensive to both sides of the argument. It is nothing more than the primitive stereotype of the Ugly American, transported by Americans working for an American company through an American computer game they are selling to the rest of the world for profit. Nice.
And please note that at the same time, Firaxis is pussyfooting around every other country. Germany's entry is an hilarious example of the "don't mention the war" syndrome. Japan's militarism? Nope. Mass murder in Russia or China under Communism? Nah. I don't think it would have crossed their mind to make a joke about Germans being ignorant of everything "between San Francisco and New York", or about the Brits knowing nothing about the regions "between Nigeria and Somalia". Rule of thumb: If it is not funny for other countries, it is not funny for America.
Personally, I think this was weak and ill-considered attempt at self-effacing humor -- "never attribute to malice that what can be attributed to stupidity", after all. But I don't have to like it. Civ was always very good at keeping the politics out of history, so to speak, and this is a clear and offensive failure to do just that. In other words, it is amazingly unprofessional, and does not bode well for the game at all.
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
I am an American and I am not offended. My father was career officer in the US Navy and he was not offended. I completely respect your right to be offended. But, by insisting that "other Americans" should also be offended, you are doing exactly what you are accusing Firaxis of doing.
And, yes, there are Americans who care enough to educate themselves about the world at large and there are Americans who are more than happy to adopt someone else's opinion, and there are Americans that just don't care. How many of our fellow Americans cared enough to even vote in the last cycle of Federal elections? How many will vote this November?
An anecdote (which is not evidence, but enlightening nonetheless), spoken by a college upperclassman: "What I want to know is, if all those people in the Bible are supposed to be Jewish, why do they all have English names?"
And, yes, there are Americans who care enough to educate themselves about the world at large and there are Americans who are more than happy to adopt someone else's opinion, and there are Americans that just don't care. How many of our fellow Americans cared enough to even vote in the last cycle of Federal elections? How many will vote this November?
An anecdote (which is not evidence, but enlightening nonetheless), spoken by a college upperclassman: "What I want to know is, if all those people in the Bible are supposed to be Jewish, why do they all have English names?"
I'm glad we can agree on that.
tom2050
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2005
- Messages
- 5,516
Anyone with a thread of interest in past historical warfare will know all about the Ottoman Empire and Turkey through any study of WW1 and 2.
Like I said, let all the trash politicians in the world ramble on and on and let their own nasty disgusting bureaucratic nonsense spew; but leave all that out of Civilization. Do as they have done before in Civ, and leave factual informative information and call it a day.
From what 2K Greg said, they took that comment off the website, but the whole civilopedia may be stock full of comments like that. Political Correctness in full form where it shouldn't even exist (in a game of 'rebuilding a civ as you see fit').
--- It's not even really about any specific country, if they start jabbing any country; I would say the same thing... leave political nonsense out of the game. No one is buying the game to know what some Firaxian sap's world opinion is that is sitting in a back corner cubicle.
Like I said, let all the trash politicians in the world ramble on and on and let their own nasty disgusting bureaucratic nonsense spew; but leave all that out of Civilization. Do as they have done before in Civ, and leave factual informative information and call it a day.
From what 2K Greg said, they took that comment off the website, but the whole civilopedia may be stock full of comments like that. Political Correctness in full form where it shouldn't even exist (in a game of 'rebuilding a civ as you see fit').
--- It's not even really about any specific country, if they start jabbing any country; I would say the same thing... leave political nonsense out of the game. No one is buying the game to know what some Firaxian sap's world opinion is that is sitting in a back corner cubicle.
It's a joke, probably the author thought it would be fun or something, when the big guys were noticed about it they ordered to remove it. I don't think it's a big deal
(and a huge ROTFL to the guy who said that its an offence to US soldiers
)
(and a huge ROTFL to the guy who said that its an offence to US soldiers
)Get a beer
Ahriman
Tyrant
Sadly, most people in every country are uninterested in historical warfare. I can't understand it myself, but there you go.
Dearmad
Dead weight
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2001
- Messages
- 1,527
That's gross. Some of us have morals you know and don't discuss such things in public!
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
What?
needmyspeed, you forgot the tf.
tom2050
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2005
- Messages
- 5,516
You were obviously drunk leaving a pointless reply as such.
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
Sorry, but, seeing as I don't like Steam, I'm not going to edit my post and add Team Fortress. If I have offended anyone with this, I will offend myself until I find it offensive that anyone could be offended by this or any other action being offensive from an offensive army which is pretty offensive if one looks at it without offending himself (or herself, sorry for the offense, no offense I hope) sufficiently. That would be quite an offense, imagine, the artillery in the background, the infantry not on the background (otherwise, the background would crumble due to all the weight), and while that might be offensive, an offensive generally is offensive thus it doesn't really matter wether it's offensive, although then you have a paradox so...
I'm sure everyone agrees.
I'm sure everyone agrees.
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