Washington

Corbeau

Jack of All Trades
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
352
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Well, I think that I have finally come to a conclusion: George Washington is my favorite leader in Civ4.

Now, I realize that some of the first responses would be along the lines of "so what?" so I figure that I should state my reasons. The answer is simple, but lies at the core of all the Civ games past: expansion, and the early settler rush. Washington can expand like no one else, almost at Civ3-like level with a good start and good play.

No longer is food the measure of power as in games past. Now it is cold hard cash that determines your expansion. In the Civ games of the past, expansion has always been overwhelmingly key in the early game. Settler spamming was quite the rage in Civ3, the game I best remember besides Alpha Centauri (where colony pod spamming was also a winner, IIRC). To tone down this one-dimensional early game, Civ4 introduced the new city maintenance system where you paid more for every city whenever you founded a new one. You now must have an economy before you build more cities.

Washington has the best combination of traits for generating a huge empire, and doing it quickly. The financial trait is one of the best in the game, giving an extra commerce on every tile that already generates two commerce. The organized trait reduces upkeep on civics, which get worse as you add more cities (I'm not quite sure how it works between civic upkeep and city upkeep, but organized helps your finances when you have many cities). But key is that organized also halves the price of Courthouses and Lighthouses.

Washington's traits combined with America's techs work very well at expanding. A fishing village with a cheap Lighthouse will quickly be an economic powerhouse due to the financial trait, allowing for better research and quicker expansion (which gets insane if you have a lot of places that you can place fishing villages). Even better is that America starts with Fishing and Agriculture, meaning that food resources can be improved early for maximum growth and worker/settler construction.

The thing you have to watch out for is military production, since shields may not always be easy to come by. Personally, I recommend going for Bronze Working and using strategic forest chops to build buildings and defenses. I can vouch that even with raging barbs and aggressive AI, that this strategy will work (on Noble, anyway - haven't gotten past that, but considering the ease that I won early wars it should still be possible to run a defensive military on a higher difficulty with this strategy). A side benefit is that by pumping settlers, you avoid having to worry about happiness buildings or resources as early as usual.

The result is that you will quickly out-expand the AI and will generate a lead in the tech race once you focus on infrastructure. I think Epic One players understand how good Washington can be with cottage spamming, and this is simply cottaging on a massive scale (though don't give up common sense about maintaining some production!). That is the reason why Washington is my favorite leader.
 
That is a very solid write-up towards your opinion. I tend to focus my early game strategy to grabbing as much land as I can, and then doing everything I can to become a cultural powerhouse, slowly draining my rivals out of land. I haven't tried out Washington yet, but after reading your post, I'm sure i'll be trying him very soon. Thanks for writing such a solid post.
 
i agree...i've seen elsewhere in the forums that washington seems to be one of the better leaders to play as...right now i'm playing as either Alexander, Cyrus or Saladin...and so far i like Saladin's traits of Philo/Spirit because you get the bonus for GPs and there is no anarchy...also beginning with Mysticism helps with getting at least one religion in for the game so you can get the gold income from spreading your religion and having a shrine...haven't really figured out how to use him best though...as far as being able to expand and create a military he's not terrible from what i've seen, but then again i'm playing at the easier levels (been out of the Civ loop for some time...previous to getting Civ 4 i played Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri), i really wouldn't mind hearing what people have to say about playing as Saladin
 
Seems like you have figured out how to exploit (and I don't mean this negatively, of course) GW's traits; because of this, you are able to do really well with him. This does not mean that GW is the best leader though.

One thing that gives Civ such lasting playability is the many possible approaches to winning. You found one that works well with GW and perhaps you'll refine it or come up with others. Any of the leader traits can be exploited in one way or the other to give you advantage over a civ that isn't playing to their traits. It's like when playing chess - you can either play the move that you want to make that works according to your plan or you can play the move that the board dictates; the player moving according to what the board dictates is most likely to dominate the game.

Play with GW and have fun, but don't be afraid to explore new leaders just because you think you will be owned by another player with GW or because you won't be able to do as well without GW. A natural progression would be to play as Cat (preserving the financial trait but swapping organized for creative); learning to take advantage of the creative trait while balancing the lack of the organized trait with infrastructure and whatnot can only make you a stronger player.

I find choosing a leader really troublesome these days. The leader I ultimately choose really depends on my mood and the sort of game I feel like playing. Do I want to wage war or play diplomatically? Do I want cultural dominance or a massive tech lead? No single leader is mandatory for any playing style, though two or three usually fit well. I usually bounce between Sal, Hatty, and Cat.

Jeremy.
 
racerx007 said:
i really wouldn't mind hearing what people have to say about playing as Saladin

Read Sulla's walkthrough. It's a full game as Salidin (with screenshots) showing how to exploit his traits to achieve victory early on.

Jeremy.
 
Corbeau said:
Well, I think that I have finally come to a conclusion: George Washington is my favorite leader in Civ4.
I think he's just the strongest in most circumstances. He combines 2 strongest traits and in 1.52 he only became further apart.
 
I would rather have bismark.
 
The main reason I took the time to post this is that I've never seen anyone even comment on Washington before. I had no idea he was considered one of the most powerful! I picked him because I thought I'd found an interesting way to play him, a strategy I enjoyed (though I still play only about 30-40% of my games as Washington). My second favorite is probably Kublai Khan, for when I really want to get in the face of my neighbors. :D

I also didn't comment on my overall view of Civ4, which is to play the hand you're dealt and roll with the punches that the game throws at you. But picking a leader allows you to customize your hand, to an extent. The strategy I outlined is simply the plan that I have going into a game with Washington.
 
My top 3 favourite use to be Bismark, Victoria, and the Russian lady. Now I tend to play solely as Romans. For all I know, I may eventualy switch to something else... we shall see.
 
I used to play as Gandhi, but these days I prefer the Chinese guy starting with Q: Industrious, Financial.
 
I think the Chineese are tough also. Russians are not bad due to the UU and culture.

I have yet to play a full game with GW but my impression is that GW is tough. Also, the AI GW always seemed to have advanced techs which is a good indicator of latter performance.
 
I think the key is that Washington's traits have great synergy, to a degree most of the leaders can't match. Civic upkeep is what holds back rampant expansion, and Washington's traits both work to keep the cash flowing in, facilitating a lot of winning play - because, as we can all agree, money is power in this game (instead of food, as before.)

Personally, I can't get in to playing the Americans for two reasons. One is the late-game UU, and the other is that it just seems kinda lame to play my own country in a game with tons of different cultures available. Still, Washington's traits are good enough that I sometimes play as him. In fact, they're my two favorite traits in the game.

I'm really surprised there are people who prefer Industrious civs on high difficulty levels. I find the trait extremely difficult to leverage, and a big gamble. Doesn't it become nearly impossible to beat the AI to wonders at higher difficulties? What if you don't find stone or marble, and another Industrious civ does? It just seems to me the trait could easily be useless in many games - worse than useless, as you waste hundreds of shields almost completing wonder after wonder.
 
Corbeau said:
The organized trait reduces upkeep on civics, which get worse as you add more cities (I'm not quite sure how it works between civic upkeep and city upkeep, but organized helps your finances when you have many cities). But key is that organized also halves the price of Courthouses and Lighthouses.

Here is an explanation of how civic costs are calculated. Basically it's just related to your total population and number of cities.

I haven't actually played as either of the American leaders yet, as the late game UU puts me off a bit as I like to have one time period where my military has an advantage, but financial is always a good trait, and Organised, with the right style of play (which you seem to have) is also useful.

This is even more true with the increased civic costs in 1.52.
 
Washington has a HUGE advantage on archipelago maps. Use the State Property civic (no distance costs), and you can basically maintain an unlimited quanitity of iceball cities that are very lucrative, given as few as one resource nearby. You'll also make great use of Slavery in this setup.

BTW, the UU isn't THAT late, and it is very handy. The problem is the infrequency of situations where they are better than their contemporary: tanks. Unlike tanks, it does get defense bonuses, and I've seen the AGG civs try artillery rushes in the late midgame - they like to beeline to that tech. Seals get bonuses vs. artillery.
 
Doesn't it become nearly impossible to beat the AI to wonders at higher difficulties?

There are a few tricks to get around that, even on deity.
 
Here's the game that inspired me to start this thread. Again, it's only noble, but after this result I think I'm going to bump up the difficulty by a notch or two. Note that I haven't actually expanded much since around 1000AD (was done with my core cities earlier than that, but one can never have too many fishing villages!). Fought two wars, one early against Bismark to secure the location of Phili, and another against Mansa to grab a few extra cities (mostly just because I could).

In 1600 I'm so far out ahead of the pack that I can't imagine losing. Probably going to make a cannon or artillery rush to finish Mansa, and then decide how I want to win. The most interesting thing now is that I've tried out Caste System, Mercantilism, and Representation for the first time, and am now checking out the Environmentalism/Lumbermill combination. Out-expanding everyone in the BC years makes it very easy in the AD years.
 
Corbeau said:
Well, I think that I have finally come to a conclusion: George Washington is my favorite leader in Civ4.

Washington can expand like no one else, almost at Civ3-like level with a good start and good play.

Why does the most powerful leader become your favorite? In a game like Civ4, where the computer opponent doesn't play very well and you have to give it large handicaps to make the game interesting, wouldn't it be more sensible to prefer a leader whose traits are less good, so that you don't have to give the AI players as much of an advantage in order to have an interesting and challenging game?
 
InFlux5 said:
I'm really surprised there are people who prefer Industrious civs on high difficulty levels. I find the trait extremely difficult to leverage, and a big gamble. Doesn't it become nearly impossible to beat the AI to wonders at higher difficulties? What if you don't find stone or marble, and another Industrious civ does? It just seems to me the trait could easily be useless in many games - worse than useless, as you waste hundreds of shields almost completing wonder after wonder.
I wouldn't discard industrious traits easily. I've won on deity with financial+industrious by building strategy around wonders (Great Lighthouse, Pyramids). While I believe that financial+organized is stronger, financial+industrial is not far behind, even though you're not likely to build more than 2-3 wonders.
 
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