Wasted Food?

If city groswth is Ok right now, maybe you need to increase some population requierment. 13 population for Industrial era i s not a big city, it's a little one.

And I m for a WASTAGE_START_CONSUMPTION_PERCENT = 0. SO it will start with the first surplus of food.

it's too easy actually to have a food surplus : hunt, have a great hunter (+5 food) -> profit.
 
Actually... I like the system now that it's been explained.

Two things to consider:
1) Your smaller city probably doesn't have any wonders that the capital may have (national level wonders at least) that increase the amount of food that will be kept after growth and reduce the amount of food needed for growth.
2) Your smaller city WOULD be wasting more food - population can only eat as much as it needs to and just because it has more available doesn't mean it's going to have more kids faster. This way we've made food somewhat more like a limiter to pop growth and an INFLUENCing factor on reproduction rather than babies being born from loaves of bread. It's not perfect but it's an interesting way to make it more like that than vanilla does.

Now... are you saying that the food WASTE alone is making the city with higher food production actually have any amount less than the city with less food production simply because the city with less already has more population? Or is it because the waste % is so high because it's so far over the threshold that it reduces it down beneath the overall food income per round for the 2nd city?

I'm not sure I understand your question, so let me supply a bevy of info and you can decide if I answered it. One note, since my original post, the food WASTE has returned to normal in my capital, but now New York, my 5th city, is taking off, so I will use that as my Exhibit A.

New York: size 68 - will grow in 3 turns
+126 :food: from Worked Tiles
+228 :food: from Trade
+109 :food: from buildings
Base :food: =458
+44% from buildings
+36% from resources
+10% from civics
Total :food: produced =879

Consumed :food:
-204 from population
-72 from waste
-2 from health

Net :food: +601


Minneapolis Size 45

+149 :food:from worked tiles
+59 :food:from trade routes (major discrepancy, I know)
+117:food: from buildings
base :food: =320
+49% :food: buildings
+29% :food:resources
+10% :food: civics

Total :food: produced= 611

Consumed
-135 for population
-371 for wasted

Net :food:+105

1. While the Capital does have more national and World Wonders, the difference between the food % boost is small. Both have comparable food related buildings (granaries, Shamanic temples, animal Farms etc), however the Capital (faster growth, less waste, less food prod) is 20+ levels bigger and growing about 5x faster.

2. I agree. The effect of limiting growth is a GREAT idea. I'm just put off by the MAJOR and INCONSISTENT impact it has, especially since there seems to be nothing the player can do to to control waste.

To play devils advocate, however, in any population of any organism, a surplus of resources produces an exponential increase in population growth. Its as true for e. Coli as it is Mold spores, field mice or humans. We've seen that in the last century for humans. In effect, while babies aren't born from bread loaves, if there is a sustained surplus, there will be a population boom of epic proportion.
 
hmm... not sure what factors are controlling the waste that moves it away from a linear progression of the more excess = more waste but there does seem to be something causing that doesn't there? It'd take a significant research into the coding to determine exactly what's taking place further.
 
I'm not sure I understand your question, so let me supply a bevy of info and you can decide if I answered it. One note, since my original post, the food WASTE has returned to normal in my capital, but now New York, my 5th city, is taking off, so I will use that as my Exhibit A.

New York: size 68 - will grow in 3 turns
+126 :food: from Worked Tiles
+228 :food: from Trade
+109 :food: from buildings
Base :food: =458
+44% from buildings
+36% from resources
+10% from civics
Total :food: produced =879

Consumed :food:
-204 from population
-72 from waste
-2 from health

Net :food: +601


Minneapolis Size 45

+149 :food:from worked tiles
+59 :food:from trade routes (major discrepancy, I know)
+117:food: from buildings
base :food: =320
+49% :food: buildings
+29% :food:resources
+10% :food: civics

Total :food: produced= 611

Consumed
-135 for population
-371 for wasted

Net :food:+105


What you've got going on there is that New York has a larger population than Minneapolis, therefore there is less waste. The system and numbers make perfect sense, even if they're difficult to understand at first.


You need to think of population growth differently. Try thinking of it as a percent. Each time a city grows, it adds a single population unit to the total population. However, that additional person represents a larger PERCENT increase in population size over a given amount of time for a smaller city.

For instance, if a size 2 city grows to size 3, that's a 50% increase in size. On the other hand, if a size 20 city grows to size 21, that's only a 5% increase in size...

So you would expect, with the same % growth a year (and there *IS* a limit in real life to how many children each generation can give birth to and raise...) that the size 2 city would take 10x as long to grow a single step if it were growing at the same percentage rate per year.




Let's compute some numbers shall we:


New York: An increase from size 68 to size 69 represents a 1.47% increase in populations size, first of all.

If you're at the point in the game where a single turn represents a single year, than that means you have a 0.49% increase in population per year.

Human populations have a generation time (time between when a child is born and when they have children themselves) of approximately 25-35 years in modern times, so let's take the low end (humans had kids at a younger age earlier in history) and assume they're having kids by age 25 on average...

0.49 * 25 = 12.25% (per generation)

This means, each woman is having, on average, 2.245 (2 * 112.25%) children by age 25 who survive to have children themselves. Not a terribly fast rate of growth, despite the short growth time (only 3 turns). There are simply a lot of childbearing women in the city of New York.

If you use a longer generation time of 30 years...

0.49 * 30 = 14.7% (per generation)

Then each woman is having, on average, 2.294 (2 * 114.7%) children by age 30 who survive to have children themselves. Still not a very fast rate of growth. In fact, New York could grow EVERY SINGLE TURN (1 turn to grow), and each woman would still only be having 2.882 children by age 30 who survive to have children themselves, on average.


Minneapolis: An increase from size 45 to size 46 represents a 2.22% increase in population

Since the food required to grow increases exponentially with each increase in city size, and Minneapolis is about 2/3 the size of New York, then it should only require about 4/9 the food to grow of New York.

If New York is growing ever 3 turns with (approximately) 600 food production, then it should be requiring about 1800 food to grow (this is after the effect of buildings like granaries).

Therefore, Minneapolis should require about 800 food to grow.


Minneapolis should currently be growing about once ever 8 turns, at a surplus of 100 food a turn. Compared to New York, it is growing at a bit over half the percentage rate a year.

As before, if 1 turn = 1 year, then Minneapolis would need to grow every 4.5 turns in order to grow at the same rate as New York.


However, Minneapolis' food surplus before waste is only about 70% (476/675) of New York's, so it should grow at a slower rate...


Minneapolis is growing at 50% the rate of New York, but has a surplus that is 70% the size.


That sound pretty reasonable to me... Perfectly in line with exponential increases in growth rate with increasing surplus.

And I'm working off the numbers you gave- which I'm guessing have New York growing in 3 turns based on current food stores, not every 3 turns in absolute terms... I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in growth-rate is even less drastic...



Of course, I don't know how much food each city has stored, or what % they are keeping after growth. But I hope you can see that the numbers DO work out in the end.


Regards,
Northstar
 
timschuett is right about one thing, and it's a bug:

New Yorks surplus is (879-204-2=) 673 :food:/turn
Waste kickoff at 90% would be anything over (204 eaten food *90%) 184
That leaves (673-184) 489 food where waste will be counted as per the way wastage growth factor works.
Regardless of size NY should here have at least 300+ wastage, more likely closer to 450.
Minneapolis surplus is (611-135=) 476 :food:/turn
Waste kickoff at 90% would be anything over (135 eaten food *90%) 122
That leaves (476-122) 354 food where waste will be counted as per the way wastage growth factor works.
Regardless of size MP should here have a wastage of at least 220+, more likely closer to 320.

A bug I have seen is that sometimes a city gets extempt from the normal wastage rules and grows a lot faster for a while due to reduced wastage. (I once had a city that bounced from having 20 turns with +600:food:/turn to x turns with only +150:food:/turn, some other cities were doing teh same but not as drastic as they didn't have the same food surpluses)
This seems to be the case here.
What starts this I am not sure, not am I sure what stops it again. Happy day in city maybe, Golden Age variables (I WAS in a Golden Age when my cities bounced around).
Something at least.

timschuett, a save might be appropriate if someone more able in the code parts would want to have a look-see?

Cheers
 
timschuett is right about one thing, and it's a bug:

New Yorks surplus is (879-204-2=) 673 :food:/turn
Waste kickoff at 90% would be anything over (204 eaten food *90%) 184
That leaves (673-184) 489 food where waste will be counted as per the way wastage growth factor works.
Regardless of size NY should here have at least 300+ wastage, more likely closer to 450.
Minneapolis surplus is (611-135=) 476 :food:/turn
Waste kickoff at 90% would be anything over (135 eaten food *90%) 122
That leaves (476-122) 354 food where waste will be counted as per the way wastage growth factor works.
Regardless of size MP should here have a wastage of at least 220+, more likely closer to 320.

A bug I have seen is that sometimes a city gets extempt from the normal wastage rules and grows a lot faster for a while due to reduced wastage. (I once had a city that bounced from having 20 turns with +600:food:/turn to x turns with only +150:food:/turn, some other cities were doing teh same but not as drastic as they didn't have the same food surpluses)
This seems to be the case here.
What starts this I am not sure, not am I sure what stops it again. Happy day in city maybe, Golden Age variables (I WAS in a Golden Age when my cities bounced around).
Something at least.

timschuett, a save might be appropriate if someone more able in the code parts would want to have a look-see?

Cheers


Interesting. On mathematical inspection, the Waste values do indeed seem a little funny.

Minneapolis has 341 food exposed to waste (waste starts when production exceeds 200% of consumption, not 190%), and wastes a full 315 food of that.

New York has 471 food exposed to waste- but only wastes 72 of that...


Keep in mind that Waste factors *ARE* relative to consumption- meaning a size 45 city with 471 food exposed to waste is going to waste a lot more of that than a size 68 city with 471 food exposed to waste, as it is based on the PERCENT in excess of consumption that food production is (Minneapolis' surplus is larger relative to consumption than New York's). But the values reported are still rather odd nonetheless...


Regards,
Northstar
 
And I m for a WASTAGE_START_CONSUMPTION_PERCENT = 0. SO it will start with the first surplus of food.

I like having food waste be nonlinear. If you grow faster by having a steady decent food surplus than by sometimes focusing on food and sometimes focusing on other stuff, you have less reason to micromanage. Making the fun thing to do also the powerful thing to do is generally a good principle in game design.
 
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