Water and Air Pollution Revisited

[JosEPh_II]

Recent entry level changes to both Air and Water "Event" buildings, henceforth called Pollution Disaster Buildings or PDB have created the need for both of these Pollution Properties to be reviewed and revised.

HydromancerX is the author of all these buildings except the Major Global Warming "event" build. I don't remember if this event was in vanilla BtS, I think it was. Or it came from Zappara and Rise of Mankind Mod or from Afforess when he added his Modmod A New Dawn to RoM. Maybe someone who knows will chime in.

Anyway, Hydro built these buildings to trigger Disasters when the entry level Air or Water polluton levels were reached.

After Hydro left I took over the maintenance of the Property levels (amount per pop, decay rate and diffusion rates) in the Properties them selves and Revised the entry levels for when each Disaster would come into play. (These have been recently changed by another Team Member) The PDBs each had a unique entry level, Each type of Disaster also had 3 PDB in that category, ie Ozone 1 (Light), Ozone 2 (Moderate), and Ozone 3 (Major)

For Air the 3 Main categories are:
Smog, Ozone, and Global Warming.
There are also 3 Catastrophic Events:
Acid Rain
Toxic Atmosphere
Blackened Skies

Making a total of 12 PDBs. Water has a similar set up with 12 PDBs. But Water pollution also has special plot yields involved versus Air using normal YieldChanges and a couple of the SeaPlotYieldChanges. More on the Water differences later.

All 24 PDBs inclusive in Air and Water also give and values, many Have Disease giving values, and Air making YieldChanges and some from both that use the "Special"PlotYieldChanges. Also GlobalHealth values are assigned to the stronger PDBs

Only Ozone 2 and 3 and Acid Rain have a Replacement Building to get rid of the Ozone Air Pollution and Acid Rain "events". Leaving Ozone 1 still an active Pollution after thos 2 Replacement buildings are built in the later Eras of the mod.

Now specifically back to Air and Water Entry Levels. The values I had put in for each Category was staggered.

Example My original entry levels, (since changed and made higher):
Air Pollution Entry levels were:
Smog1 400
Smog2 850
Smog 3 1300
Ozone 1 550
Ozone 2 1100
Ozone 3 1650
GlobalWarming 1 700
GlblWrm 2 1200
GlblWrm 3 1750
Acid Rain 950
ToxicAtmosphere 1450
Blackened Skies 1950

Water Pollution Entry levels were:
GroundWater 1 450
GrndWtr 2 900
GrndWtr 3 1400
River Pollution 1 550
RiverP 2 1000
RiverP 3 1500
Coast Pollution 1 650
CoastP 2 1100
CoastP 3 1600
RedTide 750
Reef Bleaching 1200
ToxicHydrosphere 1800

If you care to chart these out on graph paper you will see the spacings. There are 3 spots that a Water and Air Pollution can come in at the same level. But Air and Water usually do not have the same values while you are in game play. So the chance of triggering 2 events can happen but usually don't.

More to come.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Air Pollution PDBs effects during game play.
These include reducing both and levels, Adding Disease, changing yields, also may Reduce Global, and may affect Sea plot Yields .

Smog1: -1 , -1, -3, -2, -5, and +3 Disease/turn
Smog 2: -3, -3 , -5,-5,-5, +10 Disease
Smog 3: -2 , -3, -10,-5,-10, +10 Disease, -1Global

Ozone 1: -1, -1, -1, -1, +3 Disease, Has Replacement Building OZONE_GENERATOR
Ozone 2: -2. -2, -5,-5,-5, +7 Disease, Has RB Ozone generator
Ozone 3: -3 , -3,-5,-1,-3, +10 Disease, Has RB Ozone Generator

GlblWarm 1: -1, -1, -2,-1,-3
GlblWarm 2: -2, -2, -10,-10-20
GlblWarm 3: --5, -5, -20,-10,-30, -1 Global

Acid Rain: -3, -2, -5, +10 Disease, Has RB DEACIDIFICATION_STATION
Toxic Atmosphere: -10, -10, -10,-10,-10, +20 Disease, -1Glbl, -10SeaPlot
Blackened Skies: -10, -10, -20,-10,-30,+15 Disease, -2 Glbl, -10SeaPlot

 

[JosEPh_II]

Water Pollution PDBs effects during game play.
These include reducing both and levels, Adding Disease, changing Yields: , They also may Reduce Global, and may affect SeaPlotYields and/or RiverPlotYields: if the City has Coast and/or River tiles.

GroundWater 1: -1 -1, -2 -1 -3 (Normal land tile Yields), +3 Disease
GrndWtr 2: -3 -3 -10 -10 -15 (NY) +7 Disease
GrndWtr 3: -5 -5 -10 -10 -20 (NY) +15 Disease -1 Global

RiverPollution 1: -1 -1 +3 Disease, RiverPlotYields: -1 -1
RvrP 2: -2 -2 +5 Disease RtY -2 -2
RvrP 3: -5 -5 =10 Disease, RtY -3 -1 -3

CoastalPollution 1: -1 -1 +3 Disease, SeaPlotYield: -1 -1
CoastP 2: -2 -2 +7Disease, SPY -2-2
CoastP 3: -5 -4 +15 Disease, SPY -3 -3

*Red Tide: -3 -2 +5 Disease, SPY -5 -2 -5
*Reef Bleaching: -2 -2 SPY -5
Toxic Hydrosphere: -10 -10, NY -10 -10 -10, +20 Disease, SPY -10 -1 Global

* It is my belief that these 2 are in the wrong order but I have not changed their entry levels to reflect this. ( Same argument could be said for Air Pollution PDBs Toxic Atmos and Blackend Skies)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Global warming has been a staple of the civ franchise since civ I. We converted it to over for air pollution to utilize.

There are some interesting things to evaluate being shown here. Very interesting. Soon as I get a little time to review it all I will take a look for anything I can give feedback on.

A bit ago DH was wanting to make disease in cities get an addtl modifier amount per pt of unhealth. I would like to do that but we need to figure out how in xml to apply it. If we do I think we shouldnt need air polution PDBs to cause disease but maybe make it a little more unhealth punishing. A little.

@raxo2222 do you think you might be able to sort out how to add +1 disease for each excess unhealth in the city in xml?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Tomorrow I will post the Water effects.

I hope that you and DH realize how much Disease really is already present from so many sources. I know you both want plagues but I hope caution is used in this regard.

@raxo2222 do you think you might be able to sort out how to add +1 disease for each excess unhealth in the city in xml?

This could kill game starts on all Game speeds as it's borderline right now imho.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Tomorrow I will post the Water effects.

I hope that you and DH realize how much Disease really is already present from so many sources. I know you both want plagues but I hope caution is used in this regard.


This could kill game starts on all Game speeds as it's borderline right now imho.

Theoretically, we'd then back off from the existing base we have now a little to offset that. Plus we ARE talking about excess unhealth (that which is unchecked by health) rather than absolute unhealth sources. Once the balance is right, I'd want to do something similar with happiness and crime.

He was talking about having diseases not give unhealth but I feel that unhealth begets unhealth so it would make perfect sense for it not to change the impact of disease buildings over that. I know that we'd see disease become a bit gravitational this way - that the more disease you have the more you'd have to have to overcome it and once you do, you have a lot more disease fighting sources than you'd need to simply maintain a healthy state from there. But again, not really a bad thing that, so long as the AI is pretty effective still.

As for gamestarts, there's only so much unhealth disease can create so there's a limit, and besides, unhealth only slows growth. So long as it can be overcome to get a positive food progress, it shouldn't collapse the start. We used to have a lot less healthy cities to overcome than we do now.

 

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222 do you think you might be able to sort out how to add +1 disease for each excess unhealth in the city in xml?

I guess Disease could be modified by -1 for each and +1 for each
Then net unhealthiness would cause disease and net healthiness would decrease disease.

Is it possible to cities have food after shrinking?
City that shrunk would have partially filled food bar.
That is if city needs 1000 food and gets only 900 food, then food bar would be filled in (9/10)*(9/10) = 81% after shrinking and then normally decrease.

 

[Yudishtira]

Is it possible to cities have food after shrinking?
City that shrunk would have partially filled food bar.
That is if city needs 1000 food and gets only 900 food, then food bar would be filled in (9/10)*(9/10) = 81% after shrinking and then normally decrease.

I've never seen a city have food after shrinking, but it would make a lot more sense. A full food bar after growing would be ridiculous, so the current empty food bar after shrinking is equally so.

 

[raxo2222]

I've never seen a city have food after shrinking.

Well I was asking Thunderbrd if he could implement this feature.
This way even severe unhealthiness and unhappiness wouldn't outright destroy city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>.

Is it possible to cities have food after shrinking?
City that shrunk would have partially filled food bar.
That is if city needs 1000 food and gets only 900 food, then food bar would be filled in (9/10)*(9/10) = 81% after shrinking and then normally decrease.

If a City is shrinking from Starvation why would you think there would be even Any food available in the food bar after it lost a pop? They are in Starvation. If losing the 1 pop to starvation then makes the city Stagnant then that means there is enough food coming in to hold that level of Pop.

This line of reasoning is wrong and as I see it would be detrimental to game play, so I do not agree with this premise.

 

[raxo2222]

If a City is shrinking from Starvation why would you think there would be even Any food available in the food bar after it lost a pop? They are in Starvation. If losing the 1 pop to starvation then makes the city Stagnant then that means there is enough food coming in to hold that level of Pop.

This line of reasoning is wrong and as I see it would be detrimental to game play, so I do not agree with this premise. More lines of computation for no real reward in game play. We have too much of that already imho.

So city shrinking shouldn't be slowed down?
I think code for it would be used only when city would shrink on next turn.
Other than that simple asking if thing will happen next turn shouldn't really slow game.

This would add resilience to properties, just like spamming buildings in city increases resilience against properties.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So city shrinking shouldn't be slowed down?

If there is food available it will eventually stabilize to the Food level coming in from it's worked tiles. If what you are suggesting is put in then you destroy the Concept of Siege War among many other things.

 

[raxo2222]

If there is food available it will eventually stabilize to the Food level coming in from it's worked tiles. If what you are suggesting is put in then you destroy the Concept of Siege War among many other things.

Ah so I guess it can stay as is.

 

[Yudishtira]

I don't know where you guys stand on food merchants. Personally I think they're a bug and need to be much less effective, but unless/until that happens, no large city ever needs to starve, since it can produce food merchants far far faster than their food can be eaten.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't know where you guys stand on food merchants. Personally I think they're a bug and need to be much less effective, but unless/until that happens, no large city ever needs to starve, since it can produce food merchants far far faster than their food can be eaten.

Those are a combination of Sparth and DH designs iirc. They are working as intended, But there is questions to how effectively the AI can use them, If at all. T-brd may know the answer to this ?.

EDIT: Are you finding this posted information useful? Is it giving you a clearer picture of how these 2 Pollutions work with the special buildings they have, the PDBs?

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Thunderbrd

In the Pollution Properties I find this tag: <iTrainReluctance>10</iTrainReluctance> . Would you be so kind as to explain what this does?

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd

In the Pollution Properties I find this tag: <iTrainReluctance>10</iTrainReluctance> . Would you be so kind as to explain what this does?

Yes. #1 rule of that tag is Don't mess with it, or the AI weight tag directly on properties. It cannot hope to be set correctly without watching exactly how it calculates out in the code in Visual Studio. The equation is too complex to express. At least for my limited equation expression skills.

It sets a resistance factor on when it will start reacting to a property and how severely to react to it. Without it, there would come a moment in the game when the AI would build out its entire budget (or at least your computer's RAM budget) in pollution control units in a do or die move to get pollution down to 0. It has to understand this isn't going to happen so it must at least try some but not go too overboard with it to the complete collapse of the nation and perhaps the game itself. Rangers and Ecologists are not strong enough to completely reverse pollution by design - it's a way to help but should not be able to solve the problem until technology breakthroughs allow for cleaner ways to do things to replace the old methods. In light of that, the AI shouldn't implode trying, which it will do if it is allowed to treat them the same as Law Enforcement or Disease Control units.

 

[Thunderbrd]

T-brd may know the answer to this ?.

I don't know if they use them but I suspect they don't so they're basically just a player cheat right now I believe. I completely agree with Yudishtira on this but do intend to work out another solution at some point that doesn't involve outright removing them. I don't think Civ's food mechanism was ever intended to enable the conversion of production to food in even a limited manner and that's basically what they do and it disrupts reality a bit. But that said, they do serve an RL equivalent purpose if they are used to allow one city to support another through food shipping. I'd like to retain that while eliminating the production to food conversion process. Unfortunately, in terms of priorities, the project isn't yet fully on the radar.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If there is food available it will eventually stabilize to the Food level coming in from it's worked tiles. If what you are suggesting is put in then you destroy the Concept of Siege War among many other things.

I was kinda thinking along the lines proposed but you make some good arguments here.

 

[Thunderbrd]

• Raises Common Cold from entry level 1 to 10, was just not working as wanted by T-brd, too much fiddling with Disease levels in early game.

I'd say that's because you also insisted on making it do more than simply add one unhealth.