We have no control over who we are, and our success is based on random factors.

[Lonkut]

Those of us that succeed do so only because of random things, such as genetics, family, and events in life.

How are they random?

Success is random.

No its not.

we are all equal,

since when?

 

[ComradeDavo]

I think it's 50-50.

Problem is, i'm from the UK and it might be a very different situation in the US. So i can only base that on my own situation/surroundings. What I mean is that maybe people do not get the same oppurtunities in the USA.

 

[shortguy]

Those of us that work hard do so only because we were genetically predetermined to do so, taught to work hard by our family, or were inspired by an event.

Save for the potential genetic factor, I don't see these as necessarily random events. It is up to the person to react to the inspiration provided by parents/others. I have a hard time believing that whether I am inspired by an event is randomly determined. At some point in the process, I must take responsibility for myself.

 

[cgannon64]

We do not decide the circumstances we live in, but we certainly decide how to react to them. Blaming your circumstances is a cop-out.

 

[ComradeDavo]

We do not decide the circumstances we live in, but we certainly decide how to react to them. Blaming your circumstances is a cop-out.

Well, sometimes there are only limited ways we can react. Not always do people have the oppurtunity to improve theri situation, in fact the most they can do is prevent it from getting worse.

 

[cgannon64]

That's just rhetoric. Just as my telling you that people can always improve their lives, etc, would be rhetoric.

 

[Elrohir]

I don't think so. Many people have had all the cards stacked against them, but have still risen to the top. Your enviroment, upbringing and genetics only do some, what you choose to do matters much more.

 

[sourboy]

It's a vague enough statement to be accurate.

Those who disagree by saying hard work can overcome are under the delusion that it's the hard work that is providing results, when it's actual the persistance. Roll the dice enough times and whatever you are searching for will eventually appear.

 

[Yom]

It's a vague enough statement to be accurate.

Those who disagree by saying hard work can overcome are under the delusion that it's the hard work that is providing results, when it's actual the persistance. Roll the dice enough times and whatever you are searching for will eventually appear.

How is that being delusional? Hard work is essentially the same thing as persistence. The reason why I think it's not that accurate is because human drive and determination can factor in more than nurture and nature. Sure, nature and nurture can play a part in it, but I like to think that humans have a free will and are not solely logarithms that are incapable of exceeding certain limits. Otherwise, how could inventions, intuition, and other types of creativity be explained? Chaos Theory makes sense, but it's hard to believe.

 

[Shaihulud]

All things that live strive for something. For humans the reason is usually more complex but the basics are still the same. Security, wealth, family etc. Now some ppl have more "strive" then others this is undeniable from observation, what ill like to know is the why of it. I came to a few conclusions, genetics, upbringing(nurture) and enviroment. All this factors that I brought out are not determined by us except for the enviroment of course but that only minorly.

Originally Posted by Elrohir
I don't think so. Many people have had all the cards stacked against them, but have still risen to the top.

Those will be the exception than the rule. I am sure the odds of trying to overcome against stacked odds are more trying than normal.

 

[Elrohir]

It doesn't matter if it was only one person, EVER. One person alone would prove that Free Will exists and human beings can have an affect on how their lives end up. Once you reach that assumption, you no longer have the excuse of "I had a bad childhood!" or "I was never taught better!" You have to take responsability for your own actions.

 

[HighlandWarrior]

working hard is not a random occurance. Working hard doesnt mean success.

Because we only succeed based on random things that are out of our control, we are all equal, even if some of us are smarter, work harder and run faster than our fellow humans.

what kind of doublespeak is that? I'm your equal even though im faster, smarter and i work 20 times harder? HAHA.

Lets say at work im twice as productive(in every area) as you are, do you deserve the same amount of pay as me? Would you expect the same amount of pay?

 

[Masquerouge]

I'd say the easiest way of life would be to let your environment (what you call "random factors") decide for you... However, I know too many examples of people blowing the odds, in good or bad, to not acknowledge the fact that if you really want it, you have all the control you want over your life.

 

[Elrohir]

Like Michael Jackson, the embodiment of the American Dream! Poor black boy becomes rich white man, I mean do I need any other proof?

 

[Shaihulud]

The illusion of free will exists! We are never free, all that we are is tainted by influences around us. Your personality is shaped by external forces, even our desires are not something that we choose for ourselves. Michael jackson suceeds because of his father! Also he was psychologicaly traumatised during his childhood by his father. I can safely say that most of his wierdness is due not to free will.

 

[Elrohir]

I wouldn't be too sure about that, he seems to have chosen to be weird to me.

And the rest of our post was nuts Shaihulud. We are indeed influenced by our enviroment, but, at the risk of sounding like a cheesy movie, our enviroment does not determine who we are. Our choices determine who we are now, and who we will be later, and shoving it off onto an idea like "Fate" is ridiculous. This is just another rehash of "The Devil made me do it!" only now it's the politically correct modern version "Society made me do it!"

 

[Shaihulud]

Not sure if i agree with you, I can attribute most of my qualities through external influences. I may decide to do something but the why of it is due to preferances and boils furthur down some outside influences. You'll notice that most ppl growing in the same enviroment usually accepts the same kind of social norm.

Nyway whats so hard to see the external influences in our life? im sure you are very much influenced by your parents, peers and movies. I am also sure that your physical and mental selves have also influenced you much. Thiis are all things that you cannot control. Just because we pity them doesn't mean a thing, they are a hazard to society.

 

[Fifty]

"Those of us that succeed do so only because of random things, such as genetics, family, and events in life. These three things, among others, shape us. We become who we are based mainly upon these things. Those of us that work hard do so only because we were genetically predetermined to do so, taught to work hard by our family, or were inspired by an event. Success is random. Because we only succeed based on random things that are out of our control, we are all equal, even if some of us are smarter, work harder and run faster than our fellow humans." -Myself
[/b]

Your quote has left it quite undebatable (unless you are a believer in divine providence). You have basically stated everything in a person's life (their genetics and the sum of their experiences) determine everything a person is. This is undebatable.

I would say that we have free will insofar as we are given choice within our predetermined set of perameters. You could of course argue that the choice we make is in fact part of our predetermined set of parameters, but that seems to be a dead-end conclusion, because it could never actually be proven. So all you could say is that we are given freewill within our parameters, and whether that free will is really free can never be determined.

 

[BasketCase]

This is just another rehash of "The Devil made me do it!" only now it's the politically correct modern version "Society made me do it!"

Whether or not we actually have free will--when we get arrested for a crime, we're usually treated as if we do.

 

[sourboy]

Just because we cannot control our destiny, doesn't mean we can't be hurt by it.