We have no control over who we are, and our success is based on random factors.

[Fifty]

I must disagree. You control your own fate. Randomness may bring to you a situation, but it is, in the end, your own will power that decides the outcome of said situation.

But what can be argued is that your reaction to these random situations is determined solely by genetic factors (out of your control), and circumstantial factors (largely out of your control). This is how the conclusion can be reached that we have no control, even if there is a percieved existence of free will.

 

[Norlamand]

If success is so random why is it that all the lazy guys I went to high school with are losers and the hard working ones are, at least moderately, successful? If it is truely random we should be able to sit back on our asses and let fate do what it will.

 

[Fifty]

If success is so random why is it that all the lazy guys I went to high school with are losers and the hard working ones are, at least moderately, successful? If it is truely random we should be able to sit back on our asses and let fate do what it will.

I don't see that as what sims meant, or what I mean. Of course those who work harder will generally achieve more. What I am saying is that, your genetics and circumstances (two things that are out of your control) determine whether or not you will work hard. Perhaps it is best put this way:

Your genetics are random. The circumstances surrounding your life are largely random. These two things, taken together, form your personality and character. Your personality and character determines how you react to situations (i.e. to work hard or be lazy). How you react to situations determines your level of success. Therefore, success is random. See the reasoning?

 

[Norlamand]

Taken to the illogical extreme everything is random from the subatomic level to the cosmic. So what is the point of a thread on it?

 

[Fifty]

Taken to the illogical extreme everything is random from the subatomic level to the cosmic. So what is the point of a thread on it?

That's sortof what I said earlier (everyone has seemed to ignore my posts in this thread until you came along!). Given sims' quote, it is undebatable that success is based on random factors.

What I think is that freewill definitely exists in the sense of working within your pre-determined set of paramaters (genetics and circumstances). Whether or not the choices you choose to make are predetermined by genetics and circumstances or not is pointless to discuss. So basically, I agree with you. The line of reasoning I posted earlier was simply using sims' quote, even if I think of the quote as stating the obvious (your life determines your life).

 

[Norlamand]

It is quite easily debatable that success is random. As for people not paying attention to your posts.........I know the feeling and am used to it.

 

[Fifty]

It is quite easily debatable that success is random.

I agree, I'm just saying that it is not debatable in the context of sims' quote.

 

[Shaihulud]

Alot of ppl doesn't seems to misunderstand the point I was trying to put across. It doesn't mean that a path in life was predetermined for you, but the actions you take on the path are dtermined by genetics and circumstances in your life.

Hmmm imagine life as a maze with different exits. which path you take is highly determined by which part of the maze you started out in. ALso assume you are able to see the different exits and the general direction, their relative position to each exit. You may start out closer to exit South but due to incompetence or general badluck veer onto a longer path, you don't know the path just the general direction. Now this doesn't even takes into account your preference maybe you like to go left for some reason. That is not to say your life is pre determined however, you may still toss your fate to the winds determine the direction you go by the toss of a coin.

 

[Fifty]

Alot of ppl doesn't seems to misunderstand the point I was trying to put across. It doesn't mean that a path in life was predetermined for you, but the actions you take on the path are dtermined by genetics and circumstances in your life.

But what is the point of this statement? The sum of your life is your genetics and circumstances. So basically, you are saying that "your life is determined by your life". In that context, I don't understand the point of what you are saying, and I wonder how it could possibly be debatable in that context.

 

[Mark1031]

@rhymes:
I always thought that identical twins were not genetic copies of eachother? Wouldn't that make them clones? Don't quote me on that though because I'm no scientist!

Identical twins are clones. Interestingly the primary effects of environment on behavioral traits in most studies are from non-shared environment. That is things that happen uniquely to you rather than say parenting style that you and your sibs experience. These are not even necessarily events that we commonly think of as environment. They colud be things like the site of implantation in the uterus or stochastic events in the development of your embryo. They could of course also be the bully that beat you up but not your twin in 6th grade. We really don't know.

 

[Sims2789]

1)How are they random?

2)since when [are we equal]?

1) We have no control over the nation we are born in, our genes, our family, and random events that happen in our lives. We have choices, but we only come to the conclusions that we do based on how we are shaped by the foresaid things, among others.

2) Because we have no control over who we become. Who we become is based on genetics, who your family is, your country, etc. Sure, we make choices, but we come to the conclusions that we do because of these factors, among others.

 

[Sims2789]

I must disagree. You control your own fate. Randomness may bring to you a situation, but it is, in the end, your own will power that decides the outcome of said situation.

One's will power is shaped by one's enviroment, genetics, and soforth.

 

[Shaihulud]

But what is the point of this statement? The sum of your life is your genetics and circumstances. So basically, you are saying that "your life is determined by your life".

This was in response to Igloodude and Fearlessleader that it was not flawed, because it is inarguable that you are is greatly dermined by factors that YOU do not determine. Pitiful because of the seemingly randomness in life, ppl can't see every outcome of their path.

 

[Sims2789]

But what is the point of this statement? The sum of your life is your genetics and circumstances. So basically, you are saying that "your life is determined by your life".

No, I'm saying that your life is determined by random things that are out of your control.

 

[Fifty]

"Those of us that succeed do so only because of random things, such as genetics, family, and events in life. These three things, among others, shape us. We become who we are based mainly upon these things. Those of us that work hard do so only because we were genetically predetermined to do so, taught to work hard by our family, or were inspired by an event. Success is random. Because we only succeed based on random things that are out of our control, we are all equal, even if some of us are smarter, work harder and run faster than our fellow humans." -Myself

No, I'm saying that your life is determined by random things that are out of your control.

In your first quote, you cite that we are shaped by random things such as genetics and events in life. Now I ask, what more is there in life then genetics and events in life (unless you believe in God, which I assume is beyond the scope of this thread)? Which is why I say that you are basically stating "your life shapes your life".

Now when you talk about randomness in life, you seem to be doing no more than acknowledging the aspects of life (your genetics and the sum of the events you experience) as random. Of course genetics are random (in the sense that they are beyond your control). Of course you cannot control many of the events in your life. And nobody denies that these things are what shapes you. The only tangible and addressible question then, would be whether or not we have free will to control our lives within our given set of life-parameters (genetics and events of life).

When we talk about free will in terms of the free will we have within our given set of circumstances, there are two schools of thought:

a.) (the one that sims seems to acknowledge in his quote) is that we have no free will whatsoever, because the decisions we make, even if they may seem like free and conscious decisions, are determined by our genetics and life events just as much as anything else. So when we, for instance, choose to work hard or be lazy, we are essentially not choosing, we are simply acting in accordance with our character as defined by our genetics and life-events.

b.) (the one I agree with) is that yes, if we boil everything down to genetics and life-events, everything is quite random and beyond our control. HOWEVER, when we boil things down like this, we are ignoring a crucial aspect of free will, that is that free will functions within the parameters of life (genetics and life-events), and thus does not need to be excluded from the rules of life, in order to be free will. This is what I mean when I say that sims is uttering a tautology. He is essentially stating that "our lives determine our lives, and thus free will is a myth". I would argue that yes, our actions under free will are determined by our genetics and life circumstances, but that does not make it something other than free will. So basically, of course our decisions are going to be determined by our lives (genetics and life events), for they have nothing else to be determined by. That does not, however, mean that our decisions are not free will, but rather just free will functioning within the parameters of life, because those are the only parameters in which we exist.


Does ANY of that make sense? If I suck at making my thoughts coherent, let me know, and I'll try to clarify.


p.s. in my opinion, this is one of the more interesting threads in OT I've seen, nice one Sims!

 

[Sims2789]

In your first quote, you cite that we are shaped by random things such as genetics and events in life. Now I ask, what more is there in life then genetics and events in life (unless you believe in God, which I assume is beyond the scope of this thread)? Which is why I say that you are basically stating "your life shapes your life".

Now when you talk about randomness in life, you seem to be doing no more than acknowledging the aspects of life (your genetics and the sum of the events you experience) as random. Of course genetics are random (in the sense that they are beyond your control). Of course you cannot control many of the events in your life. And nobody denies that these things are what shapes you. The only tangible and addressible question then, would be whether or not we have free will to control our lives within our given set of life-parameters (genetics and events of life).

When we talk about free will in terms of the free will we have within our given set of circumstances, there are two schools of thought:

a.) (the one that sims seems to acknowledge in his quote) is that we have no free will whatsoever, because the decisions we make, even if they may seem like free and conscious decisions, are determined by our genetics and life events just as much as anything else. So when we, for instance, choose to work hard or be lazy, we are essentially not choosing, we are simply acting in accordance with our character as defined by our genetics and life-events.

b.) (the one I agree with) is that yes, if we boil everything down to genetics and life-events, everything is quite random and beyond our control. HOWEVER, when we boil things down like this, we are ignoring a crucial aspect of free will, that is that free will functions within the parameters of life (genetics and life-events), and thus does not need to be excluded from the rules of life, in order to be free will. This is what I mean when I say that sims is uttering a tautology. He is essentially stating that "our lives determine our lives, and thus free will is a myth". I would argue that yes, our actions under free will are determined by our genetics and life circumstances, but that does not make it something other than free will. So basically, of course our decisions are going to be determined by our lives (genetics and life events), for they have nothing else to be determined by. That does not, however, mean that our decisions are not free will, but rather just free will functioning within the parameters of life, because those are the only parameters in which we exist.


Does ANY of that make sense? If I suck at making my thoughts coherent, let me know, and I'll try to clarify.


p.s. in my opinion, this is one of the more interesting threads in OT I've seen, nice one Sims!

Of course it doesn't make sense, since you don't completely understand what I mean. Events, genetics, family, etc. shape your mind, which affects the decisions you make, which in turn shapes your life. Not to mention random things that can shape your like getting in a car accident.

Free will does not exist. Although we have choices, we make those choises based on the forsaid things.

 

[Fifty]

Of course it doesn't make sense, since you don't completely understand what I mean. Events, genetics, family, etc. shape your mind, which affects the decisions you make, which in turn shapes your life. Not to mention random things that can shape your like getting in a car accident.

Free will does not exist. Although we have choices, we make those choises based on the forsaid things.

I think that I addressed what you meant exactly how you stated it.

You say Events, genetics, family, etc. shape your mind, which affects the decisions you make, which shapes your life.

I said that your life parameters (genetics, events, etc.) shape your life.

What is different in my definition vs. yours? I still think the rest of my post is valid and based entirely on your own definition. How do your definitions conflict? And if you think that our definitions are the same, please lemme know what you think of the rest of my post, I'm interested in your opinion with regard to it.

 

[Sims2789]

I think that you agree with me, except on free will, but are just using different terms.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

I believe in free will. I don't believe in God's will or random events controlling us. These ideas seem the same, one religious, one secular, but in essense the same. I believe there is 'good' and 'evil' in all people. This can be taken to different ideas such as 'lazy' and 'motivated' in all of us too. We choose which.

I believe there are lots of random events that affect us, but they don't control us. I would say Scott Peterson is an example, assuming he is guilty. Lots of good things in life, but he chose evil with no indicators that he should.

There is lots of 'potential' out there. I know a Mensan who works at a Denny's and doesn't ever plan on finishing college. Potential not used in our current societies' values system, but he has other values and isn't motivated by money.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Wait, is that even scientifically accurate that your will and personality and even how you react to various situations is determined and locked away in some DNA strand? That doesn't sound right to me...