welsh or british please?

[pontypool]

The arguments starting to get a little too heated! It strikes me as absurd to say a country invented this or that, people invent things not countries. Bell invented the phone and to attribute it to scotland, canada, fiji or whaterver is misleading. Especially if you consider at that time most innovations were made with little support and more often indifference from the state they happened to be living in at the time.

it's not really absurd. because he was born and raised in scotland and got a british education and had a british citizenship (only) at the time of the inventions. I don't understand how anyone can claim the invention was not british or at least scottish.

 

[Osymandias]

funny thread

 

[StarWorms]

I never at any point said that wales was an independent country. And if you take the take to read my first post instead of juimping in at the end, you could make a more informed response to this thread.

As a matter of fact I didn't notice there was more than one page to this thread when I posted.

In my original post I said I wanted a civilization that felt more familiar, either BRITISH or WELSH , because I consider myself british first and foremost, but failing that welsh, I cannot relate to england especially when it doesn't include any welsh cities.

You can rename the civ and rename cities.

your mentioning of england conquering countries is completely irrelevant, that doesn't mean they should be more or less assured a place in civilization 4 in the slightest.

Well that's where you're wrong. Civilization IV should include civs that have stood the test of time, and gone from nothing to become a huge power. Civilizations like the Roman empire did exactly that. I don't want a pathetic little civ in the game that I've never heard of, like a tiny island in the middle of the pacific. I want civs like the Romans, Huns, Mongolians, English, French, Russians, Spanish, Greek, Egyptians. Wales comes nowhere near to matching the might of any of those countries.

I don't really care if you know of anything "wales did" that just shows how uneducated you are, and i doubt your impressing anyone by trying to prove a point by admitting a lack of knowledge about a civilization your posting about. But just to briefly add some important things "wales did"

I am certainly not uneducated and throwing insults around just goes to show how few points you have to make. If I know little of Welsh history then it's clearly because there is very little to know. I know far more about French and Spanish history.

Well first of all theres the fact that the celts in the uk arose from wales and history seems to indicate that the heart of the celts was always in wales, then theres the fact that even though england has been conquered either totally or almost completely by the vikings , romans , angles , saxons, jutes and normans. While wales managed to hold the line against the romans for 400 hundred years (rome never completely conquered wales) not for lack of trying.

But the fact remains...Wales hasn't been independant for around 600 years. Also the British monarchy is directly descended from the Normans. I also love how you split up the anglo-saxons into all the groups to make it sound like there are more. As you have already said, most of Wales was conquered by the Romans too.

Also after rome or the vikings (not to sure which) was conquered the king of essex fled to wales and worked with wales with an underground resistance against the invaders. so we helped save the english.

Seriously - what are you on about? There was no king of wessex when the romans left and the vikings were defeated by the normans. Infact it was Wales who was forced to make an alliance with England because they needed protection from the vikings.

When the vikings came over and pushed the last of the english to the south west in cornwall somerset and devon, the welsh helped because of their mutual enemy and at least partially saved their english asses again.

Actually when the vikings came over they pushed the english into wessex and kent and then finally took over those.

then theres the fact that england tried repeatidly to conquer scotland but failed, coincidently after annexation of wales england used welsh longbowmen and finally annexed scotland. Welsh longbowmen because "world famous"

This has little to do with anything. The welsh leant about the longbow from the vikings. Without the vikings, the welsh wouldn't have had been so good at the longbow.

In the 100 year war welsh archers was also used to a very large degree and helped england defeat france. England steals the longbow and trains their own (lesser renowned) longbowmen. which became the teeth of the english army.

Wales stole the longbow from the vikings...

not to mention the welsh royal family even taking the english thone on at least one occaision.

This has never happened. Where do you get your information?

 

[I_RA]

show me some proof that the telephone is considered a scottish invention or an english invention and i will agree with you but all i can see is that it is considered an american invention

 

[pontypool]

http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/BestifBrits.htm

The telephone is a british invention. Get over it.
Where the patent was made is totally irrelevant, the nationality of the inventor is the only thing thats important. Great britain was an imperial nation that spanned the globe, its unsurprising that many discoveries was made by british in foreign lands, that doesnt make those discoveries of those lands, but by the person who made them and their nationality.

Oh and starworms, your so wrong with your information and you misquoted me so many times that I cant even be bothered to reply to your whole post but.
I didnt say the kind of essex retreated into wales after the romans left, he retreated into wales when they first arrived and his land fell.
And the welsh got a primative version of the longbow from the vikings (allegedly) as there isnt conclusive proof of this. Even so, the longbow that is famous is distinctly welsh and not exactly the same as previous designs.

 

[Osymandias]

and the automobile, computer, jet-engines, nivea-cream, aspirin, book-printing, the only true beer, uboat-warfare, rocket, hamburger, autobahn, mp3, rucksack, bratwurst, recycling, television, transrapid (have i mentioned the automobile and computer?) are all german inventions. get over it.


just so funny

 

[ulsterman88]

and the automobile, computer, jet-engines, nivea-cream, aspirin, book-printing, the only true beer, uboat-warfare, rocket, hamburger, autobahn, mp3, rucksack, bratwurst, recycling, television, transrapid (have i mentioned the automobile and computer?) are all german inventions. get over it.


just so funny

what is the "one true beer" then?

 

[pontypool]

and the automobile, computer, jet-engines, nivea-cream, aspirin, book-printing, the only true beer, uboat-warfare, rocket, hamburger, autobahn, mp3, rucksack, bratwurst, recycling, television, transrapid (have i mentioned the automobile and computer?) are all german inventions. get over it.


just so funny

john logie baird of scotland invented the television.
once again america tries to steal it, by saying who invented the first "modern " television.

 

[Osymandias]

what is the "one true beer" then?

the german beer

john logie baird of scotland invented the telephone.

Johann Philipp Reis invented the telephone.

once again america tries to steal it, by saying who invented the first "modern " television.

where do you get that from?
and for clearness, i meant the cathode ray tube (braunsche röhre) which made television possible.

 

[pontypool]

I meant john logie baird invented the television. i dont know what german you managed to pull out of your ass for inventing the telephone, but whoever he is, he is unheard of and didnt invent the telephone.

Actually i would say english man Edwin Belin invented the earliest form of telelvision.
He was the first to transmit electronic images by wire, radar and fibre optics I think its safe to say that the principle of transmition of images is the founding principle of television.
Other possible inventors comes down to perspective.
In other words, which was the first "modern" tv.. which one was of adequit quality and which was patented first. read this.
http://www.physlink.com/education/AskExperts/ae408.cfm
As you can see edwin belin was the first ever inventor of transmittion of images. so i think he should get it. john logie baird invented the first motion picture. while an american /or russian invented the first "modern " television.
I dont know where the hell your fantasy german inventor fits in.

 

[moggydave]

and the automobile, computer, jet-engines, nivea-cream, aspirin, book-printing, the only true beer, uboat-warfare, rocket, hamburger, autobahn, mp3, rucksack, bratwurst, recycling, television, transrapid (have i mentioned the automobile and computer?) are all german inventions. get over it.

Actually I think the jet engine was invented by an Englishman named Frank Whittle in 1935 (at least he was the irst man to patent a fully engineered one). A German named Hans von Ohain did the same thing 5 years later, unaware of Whittle's work. The Germans were able to get the engine nto production first and used it in war first in thr ME 262. It was arguebaly used by the Germans first, but the arguement could go on forever. (Arguebaly it was a Greek idea 2500 years ago.......)

Don't say the computer was x's invention, because that one will also go on forever. Us British will of course say it wsa invented by Charles Babbage (genius) or Alan Turing, but I won't start that.

Regarding the telephone, considering A.G. Bell was Scottish, had a Scottish education etc it must be argued that the telephone was invented using "Scottish though" if there is such a thing (I don't mean that in an inslting way), and certainly not by "American/Canadian thought".

In fact, many Brits (eg Jeremy Clarkson) do point out how so many pieces of British designing and engineering genius have been utilised by/stolen by/gifte to other nations in the world and point out how it is very depressing.

But anyway this is all off topic. Regarding the thread topic I almost exclusively used the adjective British. The Civilisation is British. Ethnicities are Welsh/Scottish/Irish etc. Nations are Wales/England/Scotland. Political entities are the UK/RI. All however share very similar culture, religion, history, values, morals etc and should for arguements and common senses sake be grouped as British.

 

[Osymandias]

first:

The telephone

Philipp Reis imagined that electricity could be propagated through space, as light can, without the aid of a material conductor, and he performed some experiments on the subject. The results were described in a paper, "On the Radiation of Electricity," which, in 1859, he posted to Professor Poggendorff; for insertion in the then well-known periodical, Annalen der Physik. The manuscript was declined, to the great disappointment of the sensitive young teacher.

Philipp Reis had studied the organs of hearing, and the idea of an apparatus for transmitting sound by means of electricity had been floating in his mind for years. Incited by his lessons on physics, he attacked the problem, and was rewarded with success. In 1860, he constructed the first prototype of a telephone, covering a distance of 100 m. In 1862 he again tried Poggendorff, with an account of his "Telephon" as he called it; but his second offering was rejected like the first. The learned professor, it seems, regarded the transmission of speech by electricity as a chimera; but Philipp Reis, bitterly, attributed the failure to his being "only a poor schoolmaster."

Reis had difficulty in interesting people in Germany in his invention despite demonstrating it to (among others) Wilhelm von Legat, Inspector of the Royal Prussian Telegraph Corps in 1862 (Legat, 1862). It aroused more interest in the United States In 1872, Prof Vanderwyde demonstrated Reis's device in New York where it was seen by Thomas Edison, and possibly officials of Western Union and Alexander Graham Bell. Bell, Edison and Berliner drew on Reis's device as a starting point in their subsequent development of components of the telephone.

from Johann Philipp Reis
also the name "telephone" was out of his feather

second: whats your problem? can't you discuss friendly? i'm not your enemy.

third:

Actually i would say english man Edwin Belin invented the earliest form of telelvision.
He was the first to transmit electronic images by wire, radar and fibre optics I think its safe to say that the principle of transmition of images is the founding principle of television.

and for that you need a cathode ray tube (braunsche röhre) that displays the pictures

 

[pontypool]

Actually I think the jet engine was invented by an Englishman named Frank Whittle in 1935 (at least he was the irst man to patent a fully engineered one). A German named Hans von Ohain did the same thing 5 years later, unaware of Whittle's work. The Germans were able to get the engine nto production first and used it in war first in thr ME 262. It was arguebaly used by the Germans first, but the arguement could go on forever. (Arguebaly it was a Greek idea 2500 years ago.......)

Don't say the computer was x's invention, because that one will also go on forever. Us British will of course say it wsa invented by Charles Babbage (genius) or Alan Turing, but I won't start that.

Regarding the telephone, considering A.G. Bell was Scottish, had a Scottish education etc it must be argued that the telephone was invented using "Scottish though" if there is such a thing (I don't mean that in an inslting way), and certainly not by "American/Canadian thought".

In fact, many Brits (eg Jeremy Clarkson) do point out how so many pieces of British designing and engineering genius have been utilised by/stolen by/gifte to other nations in the world and point out how it is very depressing.

But anyway this is all off topic. Regarding the thread topic I almost exclusively used the adjective British. The Civilisation is British. Ethnicities are Welsh/Scottish/Irish etc. Nations are Wales/England/Scotland. Political entities are the UK/RI. All however share very similar culture, religion, history, values, morals etc and should for arguements and common senses sake be grouped as British.

Your right about the jet engine.. in fact, it was actually invented in england many years before 1935. but the man who came forward with his theory was laughed at and he would not get funded . even though his diagrams have been proven to work (albeit primatively)

you hit the nail right on the head with A.G bell . I am just stunned that anyone other country can claim they invented something, because a totally british / scottish person happend to be in their country, or eventually settle in their country at a later date. Although depressing is not the word I would use.

 

[Osymandias]

Actually I think the jet engine was invented by an Englishman named Frank Whittle in 1935 (at least he was the irst man to patent a fully engineered one). A German named Hans von Ohain did the same thing 5 years later, unaware of Whittle's work. The Germans were able to get the engine nto production first and used it in war first in thr ME 262. It was arguebaly used by the Germans first, but the arguement could go on forever. (Arguebaly it was a Greek idea 2500 years ago.......)

yeah, i heard of it. but that's a greek idea is new to me! interestening!

Don't say the computer was x's invention, because that one will also go on forever. Us British will of course say it wsa invented by Charles Babbage (genius) or Alan Turing, but I won't start that.

well, if you consider the Z1 (zuse 1) as the first real computer, it was a "german" invention.

but this statement of the "german" inventions was just meant as joke rather than serious.

But anyway this is all off topic. Regarding the thread topic I almost exclusively used the adjective British. The Civilisation is British. Ethnicities are Welsh/Scottish/Irish etc. Nations are Wales/England/Scotland. Political entities are the UK/RI. All however share very similar culture, religion, history, values, morals etc and should for arguements and common senses sake be grouped as British.

as it counts for me, i would like to see the scotish and welsh civs ingame. i've modded scotland in in my mod, as also i modded in bavaria and switzerland. so, every ethniticy should have a chance to be in civ. and thanks god this game is so extremly modable, that's everyohne can do it.

 

[pontypool]

first:

from Johann Philipp Reis
also the name "telephone" was out of his feather

second: whats your problem? can't you discuss friendly? i'm not your enemy.

third:

and for that you need a cathode ray tube (braunsche röhre) that displays the pictures

just because some of the utilities used in the construction of the first ever television was invented by someone else, doesn't mean the first working television was invented by him.

 

[Osymandias]

oh come on. it is comonly known that Karl Ferdinand Braun figured out the cathode ray tube without that no television would be possible.

 

[pontypool]

oh come on. it is comonly known that Karl Ferdinand Braun figured out the cathode ray tube without that no television would be possible.

It's a seperate invention. an imaging device.
Television is when you can transmit images over a distance.
If your going to use your argument, you could say the person to discover electricity invented televisions because without that no television would be possible.

 

[Osymandias]

well, which device could also be used to decode the transmitted images and motion pictures? and i don't really mean the television as (motion-)picture-broadcast, but the device. your computer-monitor is also a television or the oscilloscope.
i know that braun hasn't done the whole transmitting of pictures and so on.

 

[pontypool]

and what would power your cathode ray device if electricty was not discovered?
looks like braun didnt invent the cathod, the person who discovered electricty did.

 

[MooManof_]

Have you heard of the tuner? I know JL Baird didn't invent that either (he used a simple radio tuner from a wireless set, IIRC) but he invent TV by putting them together.