Were Nazis lefties?

[HoloDoc]

The political compass is a shared subjectivity.

The main difference between Trump and Hitler is that Hitler was competent. Ba dum tish.

The third and fourth points were never up for debate. I never claimed Hitler was Satan. One can even argue he wasn't even the worst political leader of the twentieth century. Pol Pot, Mao, Thatcher, they all are arguably worse. But being Left does not automatically equal good, or Right bad. I would trust Noam Chomsky to translate Klingon for me, but I certainly wouldn't want him running my country. Although, given the current government, Hitler himself might not be a bad choice...

 

[Lexicus]

equal opportunity, fair treatment under the law

You guys are arguing seriously with someone who claims that the Nazis wanted equal opportunity and fair treatment under the law?

 

[HoloDoc]

You guys are arguing seriously with someone who claims that the Nazis wanted equal opportunity and fair treatment under the law?

Mostly just wanted to discuss the actual nuances of whether or not the Nazis had some left-wing policies. Then I didn't want to let the ridiculous assertion that Left and Right were completely subjective categories and that Enginseer could simply arbritrarily decide they meant something different to their accepted meaning, because wizards. Honestly, I was mostly just bored and needed a break from my uni work, so I was willing to let a lot of stuff slide rather than ripping it to pieces if it meant having some sort of discussion.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm now on page ~550 of Volker Ullrich's Hitler biography.

One point that stood out in contradiction to some of the things I've said here was that Ullrich dismisses funding from wealthy industrialists as an important cause of the Nazis' electoral success. He claims that the majority of the Nazis' money came from member dues.

Of course, I would argue that the conservative policies of the Brüning government were primarily responsible for the Nazis' electoral success, but that is a slightly different argument.

One more thing to note: it is striking the degree to which the Nazi dictatorship was based on legal constructs and maneuvers which were already carried out by the conservatives before Hitler ever became Chancellor. Notably the abrogation of the sovereignty of the federal states of the Weimar Republic was basically what Papen's government had already done to the democrat-dominated Prussian state government. A cabal of conservatives including the President, Hindenberg, had already been ruling essentially without reference to the Reichstag for years when Hitler was appointed Chancellor.

Mostly just wanted to discuss the actual nuances of whether or not the Nazis had some left-wing policies. Then I didn't want to let the ridiculous assertion that Left and Right were completely subjective categories and that Enginseer could simply arbritrarily decide they meant something different to their accepted meaning, because wizards. Honestly, I was mostly just bored and needed a break from my uni work, so I was willing to let a lot of stuff slide rather than ripping it to pieces if it meant having some sort of discussion.

I know
that feel

 

[Alvarez_Player]

You guys are arguing seriously with someone who claims that the Nazis wanted equal opportunity and fair treatment under the law?

 

[HoloDoc]

I'm now on page ~550 of Volker Ullrich's Hitler biography.

One point that stood out in contradiction to some of the things I've said here was that Ullrich dismisses funding from wealthy industrialists as an important cause of the Nazis' electoral success. He claims that the majority of the Nazis' money came from member dues.

Of course, I would argue that the conservative policies of the Brüning government were primarily responsible for the Nazis' electoral success, but that is a slightly different argument.

One more thing to note: it is striking the degree to which the Nazi dictatorship was based on legal constructs and maneuvers which were already carried out by the conservatives before Hitler ever became Chancellor. Notably the abrogation of the sovereignty of the federal states of the Weimar Republic was basically what Papen's government had already done to the democrat-dominated Prussian state government. A cabal of conservatives including the President, Hindenberg, had already been ruling essentially without reference to the Reichstag for years when Hitler was appointed Chancellor.



I know
that feel

The industrialists Hitler buddies up to didn't so much provide the Nazis with money, as they provided them with free advertising. Hitler used Hugenberg to make friends with a few newspaper magnates, for example. And having friends in high places helped Hitler discard his reputation as a common rabble rouser. Common dabble ruses didn't drink champagne with former nobility at exclusive parties.

 

[Lexicus]

The industrialists Hitler buddies up to didn't so much provide the Nazis with money, as they provided them with free advertising. Hitler used Hugenberg to make friends with a few newspaper magnates, for example. And having friends in high places helped Hitler discard his reputation as a common rabble rouser. Common dabble ruses didn't drink champagne with former nobility at exclusive parties.

Well, that's certainly true. Those few industrialist friends helped the Nazis gain an aura of "respectability".

Also worth pointing out that Ullrich seems to think the Nazi party membership was drawn mostly from the middle classes even at the peak of its electoral success (though he does say that the SA had a higher proportion of working-class members than the Party as a whole), and that it didn't become broadly popular with the working classes until after the Nazis were already in charge and they managed to really cut into unemployment (having complete control of the country's communication channels also helped immensely with that since it enabled them to really pipe out the propaganda).

 

[HoloDoc]

Well, that's certainly true. Those few industrialist friends helped the Nazis gain an aura of "respectability".

Also worth pointing out that Ullrich seems to think the Nazi party membership was drawn mostly from the middle classes even at the peak of its electoral success (though he does say that the SA had a higher proportion of working-class members than the Party as a whole), and that it didn't become broadly popular with the working classes until after the Nazis were already in charge and they managed to really cut into unemployment (having complete control of the country's communication channels also helped immensely with that since it enabled them to really pipe out the propaganda).

Yes, a lot of working class Nazis were originally communists. They didn't care about ideology, they were poor, volatile,and willing to follow whoever provided them job security and/or a chance to start fights.

Rural voters were instrumental to Nazi electoral success, but don't actually seem to have comprised much of the membership. I've always found that a little strange.

 

[Lexicus]

Rural voters were instrumental to Nazi electoral success, but don't actually seem to have comprised much of the membership. I've always found that a little strange.

Yeah, not exactly sure about this either. Perhaps @Dachs or someone else more knowledgeable could help us out.

 

[innonimatu]

The slides available on this page make a short history of how post-WW1 Germany slid into nazism, pinning most of the the blame on the military it seems to me.

 

[JMA2286]

There's no point in trying to categorize the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany in a false dichotomy of American misconceptions and ideologies that don't even make sense when you try to add up what they stand for and against.

 

[HoloDoc]

There's no point in trying to categorize the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany in a false dichotomy of American misconceptions and ideologies that don't even make sense when you try to add up what they stand for and against.

Left and Right aren't American. They're French in origin. If we argued over whether Nazs were Democrats or Republicans (clearly Republicans) you'd have a point.

 

[HoloDoc]

The slides available on this page make a short history of how post-WW1 Germany slid into nazism, pinning most of the the blame on the military it seems to me.

Doesn't seem to want to work on my iPad. But blaming the military is very simplistic. Sure, the military could have stopped the Nazis from seizing power, but only by launching a coup. The political and economic situation that led to the Nazi's rise wasn't the military's fault.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Doesn't seem to want to work on my iPad. But blaming the military is very simplistic. Sure, the military could have stopped the Nazis from seizing power, but only by launching a coup. The political and economic situation that led to the Nazi's rise wasn't the military's fault.

The political situation was at least partly their fault. The myth of the German army being stabbed in the back by civilian politicians was their creation.

 

[HoloDoc]

The political situation was at least partly their fault. The myth of the German army being stabbed in the back by civilian politicians was their creation.

In 1918. They certainly didn't help the political situation, agreed.

 

[AmazonQueen]

In 1918. They certainly didn't help the political situation, agreed.

There was also their lack of support for the Weimar republic. They claimed they had a higher loyalty to the German nation. Generals such as Ludendorff, Hindenburg and von Schleicher were all active in politics.
The army acquiesced in Hitler's coming to power, their price being the Night of the Long Knives.

 

[HoloDoc]

There was also their lack of support for the Weimar republic. They claimed they had a higher loyalty to the German nation. Generals such as Ludendorff, Hindenburg and von Schleicher were all active in politics.
The army acquiesced in Hitler's coming to power, their price being the Night of the Long Knives.

The Night of the Long Knives was over a year after Hitler came to power. Ludendorff was a leading Nazi himself at one point. The military's involvement in politics was very subtle.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The Night of the Long Knives was over a year after Hitler came to power. Ludendorff was a leading Nazi himself at one point. The military's involvement in politics was very subtle.

Not that subtle. Ludendorff was involved in a coup attempt and ran for president. Hindenburg was President and von Schleicher was Chancellor. Von Papen and Hindenburg together put Hitler in power. The German army didn't create the Nazis but they, far more than industrialists, helped them into power.

 

[HoloDoc]

Not that subtle. Ludendorff was involved in a coup attempt and ran for president. Hindenburg was President and von Schleicher was Chancellor. Von Papen and Hindenburg together put Hitler in power. The German army didn't create the Nazis but they, far more than industrialists, helped them into power.

Why are you acting as if Hindenburg and Ludendorrf were the army, when both men were retired from the military when they committed those acts? It would be like blaming the British Army for Churchill's actions as Prime Minister.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Why are you acting as if Hindenburg and Ludendorrf were the army, when both men were retired from the military when they committed those acts? It would be like blaming the British Army for Churchill's actions as Prime Minister.

Churchill was never a senior general. The "kamarilla" around Hindenburg was largely composed of military or ex-military officers. Generals such as Keital, Reichnau and Blomberg all had contact with the Nazis before they came to power. The army wasn't united in its political views but its members weren't apolitical.