Western complicity in the killing of pro-Democracy protestors in the Arab world

And how exactly am I wrong by "[ignoring] the Hegelian aspect of his thinking"? Does the Hegelian influence mean the state of nature is any less central?

You seem to be comfortable with criticising dialectical/historical materialism while at the same time asserting that Marxism tries to return man to a "state of nature". Should I be surprised that you don't see the inconsistency?

The idea of a return to an idealised past is simply inconsistent with Hegelian dialectics. There's really nothing more that needs to be said about that. As I've always said, you may have read Marx but you don't seem to understand what you read anyway.

Alassius said:
Apparently some people think it's better to be a cold blood killer than a hypocrite, because the former is more honest. Are they less juvenile than me, or more?

No one said that :confused:
 
Responsibility for what??

When somebody is murdered, who do you put in prison? The guy who pulled the damn trigger. All you guys did ("you guys" being the UK) was sell a bunch of guns. The dictators were the ones stupid enough to pull the trigger.

You can't take responsibility for someone else's idiocy.

Get back to me about how Afghanistan shouldn't have been invaded some time, sport
 
You take responsibility for providing someone a tool when you know they were not ready to use it properly.
I boldfaced the point where you screwed up.

So far, Qadaffi is apparently the only dictator who's been stupid enough to open fire on his own citizens, which means the West is batting around 90% right now. You can't throw somebody in prison for a crime until after they commit the crime; before that point you have little choice but to give them the benefit of the doubt. So, no. You don't know who's ready to use guns and F-16's properly until they actually misuse them.

Besides (and here's the part that is really gonna suck for a lot of people in this thread) these people whose overthrow CFC is now demanding? Back when the U.S. was invading Iraq, most of you guys preferred these dictators instead of liberations and revolutions. Why?

Stability.

Get back to me about how Afghanistan shouldn't have been invaded some time, sport
Not gonna happen. Afghanistan absolutely should have been invaded.

Sport.
 
You seem to be comfortable with criticising dialectical/historical materialism while at the same time asserting that Marxism tries to return man to a "state of nature". Should I be surprised that you don't see the inconsistency?

The idea of a return to an idealised past is simply inconsistent with Hegelian dialectics. There's really nothing more that needs to be said about that. As I've always said, you may have read Marx but you don't seem to understand what you read anyway.

Not "return", more like ascending to something that resembles the good parts of the state of nature, for example innocence, but doesn't have the bad parts, for example starvation. The ultimate system is superior to both the original state of nature, and the various systems based on private property. How is that not Hegel?


In that case, neither is appealing in contrast with known alternatives.

True, but the context here is whether the autocrats would do better or worse in absence of western arms sale, so the comparison is still interesting. My argument is that without the sales, those autocracies would just manage their people in the same way it has always been done. With economic integration, however, western hypocrisy at least make them do something nice once in a while. American generals for example played a part in preventing the Egyptian army from opening fire on their people.

Not really, no.

Afraid I don't agree. I think people in modern Arab autocracies are much better off in almost every way, compared to peasants in a typical medieval kingdom. Keep in mind that most Arab countries have an HDI higher than world average. Think about the kind of things people are protesting about: corruption, lack of democracy, and unemployment. How often do you think a medieval peasant would complain about those? They'd just accept it as life.

Things that cannot eat tend to starve.:mischief: (Let alone reproduce)

Are you saying without western arms sale, those despots would have no other way to get tools of oppression, hence "starve"?


Except that greedy people can have a vested interest in helping others to give to them through negotiation, coercion, and other measures. Make a person greedy enough, and the lives of others are of no concern. Greed encourages the accumulation of power. It does not disperse it as you seem to think.

Greedy people want to accumulate power, but greed does not by itself create power. Power is generally a zero-sum game. You can't create power for someone without diminishing power for some others. Encouraging everyone to accumulate power means, paradoxically, everyone gets a smaller share.


Interesting read, what do you mean by negative liberties?

Nobody should be allowed to bomb your home, for example.
 
Not "return", more like ascending to something that resembles the good parts of the state of nature, for example innocence, but doesn't have the bad parts, for example starvation. The ultimate system is superior to both the original state of nature, and the various systems based on private property. How is that not Hegel?

Yeah, but your rhetoric about communist utopia 'mirroring' an innocent state of nature makes no sense, then. Unless the meaning of the word 'mirror' is to be equivocated to the point of meaninglessness. And thus the importance of the innocence of a bygone era kinda gets diminished in the whole scheme.
 
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