WH40K-mod: Requesting constructive critisim on tech-tree, policites etc.

[Skajaquada]

Here's a little update. I've just finished a tech-tree, policies, resources and so on (just the names, thank the Emperor, I don't even want to start thinking on giving these bonuses and trying to balance it for a couple of months). They're further down if anyone just want to skim through them and say what you think.

The biggest change since last time I posted I guess is that I was thinking of having one really big tech-tree instead of a bunch of small ones and instead divide up the policy-screens. Then I can also have a little more neutral names for the techs and let the policies worry about alignment with the Ruinous Powers. I figure otherwise the tech-tree will just lock into first either Chaos or Order, then just have a single line for each alignment. One goal here I would say is to still make it play out like a normal Civ-game.

The tech-tree would then go though the Dark Age of Technology, Age Of Strife, Great Crusade, Heresy Era and Age of the Imperium. You'd still play as one of the Primarchs, so I guess just like a normal Civ-game where you're Washington inventing the Wheel. The original idea I had was that it would at-least try to act normal and the game would start in the Great Crusade, but I think it's better just going all-out as a Civ-game and then let people make any scenario you want. The plus with this I guess is that I can have all the techs as they were invented. Also I can have all the distinct eras of the WH40K-universe.

Some notes about the tech-tree (as seen in the attached picture) is that I was thinking up till the Age Of Strife you'll just build Imperial Guard-units, advancing through Infantry, Stormtroopers, Ogryns and Tanks. Then with the Age Of Strife you'll start building Space Marines so I guess Guard vs. Space Marines will only be seen in situations like if a civilization is cut off and you invade with Tanks vs Spearmen. Though I'm not sure if that's still possible in Civ 5 actually.

The main thing I'm thinking about right now is how Space Marine and Chaos-units will be separated. I still think it's best to not separate tech-trees and units between the Traitor and Loyal Legions mostly because it would feel too weird doing diplomacy and playing a normal peaceful Civ-game. It's mainly the same reason I think Orks and Tyranids will make great barbarians and Eldar city-states. Though I'm really not sure, one thought is that the final techs could be a little more separated and instead of having one "Future Tech" I could have two, one leading up through the final Chaos-units and the other through the normal Space Marine-units.

Other things are a little more easy, like Terminators being stronger but slower and take much more damage from being flanked. Then I can use the fluffy names like "Devestator" for units with range "Assault" for the melee-units and "Tactical" for those all-around however they'll be used. It's there I'm trying to fit in the Chaos-units... I think I can do some magic-system for the psykers at-least so the Chaos Sorcerer will be covered. Then maybe the Daemons could have an expiration-timer and be single-built with a building like "Chaos Gate" that makes unhappiness or something. However the normal Chaos Marines is still a question-mark...

Anyway, I'm feeling this turning into a wall of text so I'll just paste in the lists here:

Strategic Resources
Diamantine
Adamantium
Ceramite
Plasteel
Promethium
(Necrodermis)

Luxary Resources
Swamp Orchid
Amasec
Rotgut
Wildsnake
Sacra
Tranq
Theosophist's Philtre
lho-leaf
Obscura
Flects
Gladstones
Grinweed
Sniff-Musk
Penshel Seeds
Recaf

Bonus Resources
Grox
Crolatids
Catachan Devil
Ferro Beast
Slasher Beast
Stiltwalker
Barking Toad
(If neeeded...)
Carnosaur
Megasaur
Pit Rat
Gladehound
Iceback
Bloodstalker
Hunting Lizard
Ambull
Crawler
Kraken
Rubber Moss
Sludge Jellies
Ripper Jacks
Face-Eater
Cudbear

Difficulties
Tech Priest
Corporal
Sergeant
Leutenant
Brother Captain
Lord Commander
Primarch
Emperor

Buildings

Great Wonders

Golden Throne
Chamber of the Astronomican
Ecclesiarchal Palace
Eternity Gate
Ultimate Gate
Luna Labs
Inquisitorial Fortress
Imperial Palace
Forbidden Fortress
Fortress Monastery
Sanctum Imperialis
Imperial Dungeon
Temple of the Savior Emperor
Tower of Heroes
Bell of Lost Souls
Chapel of Fallen Heroes
Citadel of Kromarch
Temple of All Knowledge
The High Altar
Hall of Judgement
Palace of the Navigators
Throne of Judgement
City of Sight
Council of Terra
Noctis Labyrinth
Archmagos Doctrinal
Akashic Reader
Grimore Hereticus
STC Library
Standard Template Constructor
Book of the Rhana Dandra
Library Sanctus
Librarius Omnis
Maraviglia

Normal

Company Chapel
Penitorium
Communal Dormitories
Guest Chambers
Foundries
Shuttle Silos
Teleportorium
Launcher Pads
Armoury
Apothacarion
Assimularum
Reclusiam
Refectory
Oratorium
Librarium
Cells
Hydro-culture
Terrarium
Scriptory
Solitorium
Dungeon
Generatorum
Barbican
Defence Laser
Local Defences
Missile Silos
Catacombs
Great Hall
Arbites Precinct
Inquisitorial Conclave
Manufactorium

(Culture / Dominance Buildings)

Battle Barge
Strike Cruiser
Gladius Class Frigate
Warmonger Titan
Imperator Titan
Warlord Battle Titan
Reaver Battle Titan
Warhound Scout Titan
Abominatus Titan
Banelord Titan
Plaguelord Titan
Painlord Titan
Warplord Titan
Ravager Titan
Feral Scout Titan

(If needed...)

Nova Class Frigate
Hunter Class Frigate
Apocalypse Battleship
Emperor Battleship
Oberon Battleship
Retribution Battleship
Avenger Grand Cruiser
Exorcist Grand Cruiser
Vengeance Grand Cruiser
Armageddon Battle Cruiser
Mars Battle Cruiser
Overlord Battle Cruiser
Dictator Cruiser
Dominator Cruiser
Gothic Cruiser
Lunar Cruiser
Tyrant Cruiser
Dauntless Light Cruiser
Defiant Light Cruiser
Endeavour Light Cruiser
Endurance Light Cruiser
Sword Frigate
Firestorm Frigate
Tempest Frigate
Cobra Destroyer
Falchion Destroyer
Despoiler Battleship
Desolator Battleship
Retaliator Grand Cruiser
Repulsive Grand Cruiser
Executor Grand Cruiser
Styx Heavy Cruiser
Hades Heavy Cruiser
Acheron Heavy Cruiser
Devastation Cruiser
Murder Cruiser
Carnage Cruiser
Slaughter Cruiser
Idolator Raider
Infidel Raider
Iconoclast Destroyer

Unique Units
It's still kind of a question-mark. It depends on how I'll handle the Chaos Marine-units. One thought is that all Chaos-units will be the unique units for the Tratior Legions. It's based on one fluff note I've read that the original Luna Wolves 1st Company actually looked like the Black Legion (probably corrupted by Chaos as well) so in a Civ-esque way I think it might fit. Otherwise it'll be the normal Noise Marines for Emperor's Children etc.

Social Policies
Main policy-branches followed by the policies in no particular order. I'm just trying for what sounds best at the moment.

Senatorum Imperialis

Adeptus Administratum - Tithes, Departmento Munitorium, Estate Imperium, Historical Revision Unit, Chief of the Imperial Administration
Adeptus Astra Telepathica - Sanctioned Psykers, League of Blackships, Scholastia Psykana, Astropaths
Adeptus Astronomica - Navigators, High Instructors, Lore of the Astronomican, Nature of the Warp, Chosen, Psychic Light
Navis Nobilite - Navigators, Paternova, Great Families, Novator
Adeptus Mechanicus - Cult of the Machine, Machine God, Forge World, Quest for Knowledge, Mechanicum of Mars, Treaty of Mars, Orthodox Mechanicus
Adeptus Custodes - Light of the Emperor, Ray of Hope, Golden Path, Blood Games, Legio Custode
Adeptus Arbites - Dictates Imperialis, Grand Provost Marshal, Verispex Squads, Cyber Mastiffs, Chasteners
Officio Assassinorum - Callidus Temple, Culexus Temple, Vindicare Temple, Eversor Temple, Venenum Temple, Vanus Temple, Secretum Temple
The Imperial Inquisition - Ordo Xenos, Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Sicarius, Ordo Militum, Ordo Sepulturum, Ordo Obsuletus
Adeptus Ministorum - Ecclesiarchy, Holy Synod, Schola Progenium, Frateris Templar, Imperial Creed, Cult of the Saviour Emperor, Missionaria Galaxia, Reign of Blood

Chamber Militant

Imperial Guard - Commissariat, Planetary Defense Force, Penal Legion, Sledgehammer of the Emperor
Adeptus Astartes - Codex Astartes, Chaplain Edict, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sword of the Emperor, Second Founding, Blood Duel, Angels of Death, Crux Terminatus
Collegia Titanica - Divisio Mandati, Divisio Telepathica, Divisio Investigatus, Divisio Militaris, Pax Imperia, Missionary Orders
Adepta Sororitas - Daughters of the Emperor, Brides of the Emperor, Sisters of Battle, Witch Hunters, Decree Passive, Convent Prioris, Convent Sanctorum
Imperial Navy - The Holy Fleet, Segmentum Solar, Segmentum Obscurus, Segmentum Pacificus, Segmentum Tempestus, Segmentum Ultima

Ruinous Powers

Khorne - Blood God, Ascension, Lord of Rage, Lord of Blood, Lord of Skulls
Slaanesh - Dark Prince, Prince of Pleasure
Tzeentch - Architect of Fate, Changer of Ways, Dark Knowledge, Book of Tzeentch, Lord of Sorcery, Lord of Entropy, God of Fate, The Grand Schemer, Mass Mutation
Nurgle - Plague Lord, Lord of Pestilence, Lord of Decay, Zombie Plague, Plague of Unbelief, Nurgle's Rot, Proctors of Pestilence
Chaos Undevided - The Lost and the Damned, Daemon World, Chaos Star, Forces of Chaos
Malal - The Renegade God, The Outcast God, The Lost God

Traits
Really not sure, this is all I could think about...

Dark Angels -
Emperor's Children -
Iron Warriors -
White Scars -
Space Wolves -
Imperial Fists -
Night Lords -
Blood Angels - Black Rage
Iron Hands - Iron Fathers
World Eaters -
Ultramarines -
Death Guard -
Thousand Sons - Book Of Magnus
Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus - Warmaster
Word Bearers - The Glory Of The Emperor
Salamanders -
Raven Guard -
Alpha Legion -

Otherwise general progress is great. I'm giving this some hour or two every day. I've written scripts for Photoshop that can generate all the textures I need as well as some simple JS-code to copy the XML-code for all the civilizations. I've even had time to make all the Legions' textures the way I want them. I've also imported icons for a little everything as well as modded in multiple policy-screens. I'm now trying to finalize these parts so I can make a formal request for original 2D art for all the icons and such. Then when that is hopefully under way I'm planning to start importing units again.

P.S. Sorry for all the broken pipes in the tech-tree. They're really not that important, it's mostly the names and how the tech-tree feels when you watch it I'm interested in. I also intentionally tried to keep it a little vague (like not going through Power Armour MK1, MK2 etc.) so the pipes could easily be switched for balancing and such.

 

[Sifaus]

I really like this. I love W40K. I'm really mad about copyright policy of Games Workshop. Idk if they continue to stop great mods, but really looking forward for this.

This, sir, will be my reason to install Civ5 again.

 

[filli_noctus]

With regards to luxury resources the current civ ones should be just fine (with the possible exception of whales). M41 specific stuff? Amasec is the only one that really stands out, maybe lho sticks (cigarettes). I know you don't have the tech tree nailed down but Marine organs were perfected by the time of the Heresy, warp engine (and possibly STC) should be before the dark age of technology.
And weren't the squats retconned out of existence a few years back?

 

[chrome-rome]

Nothing to do with mod content, but where did you get the images for the policies? They are amazing!!

 

[Skajaquada]

With regards to luxury resources the current civ ones should be just fine (with the possible exception of whales). M41 specific stuff? Amasec is the only one that really stands out, maybe lho sticks (cigarettes). I know you don't have the tech tree nailed down but Marine organs were perfected by the time of the Heresy, warp engine (and possibly STC) should be before the dark age of technology.
And weren't the squats retconned out of existence a few years back?

Thanks for the reply. I checked for Amsec and found a list of drugs and alcohol in WH40k on Lexicanum. I added them to the resource-list in the OP if you want to check. I also added some wild-life to the Bonus Resources. I really like that, only narcotics for luxury and wild-life for bonuses has a grimdark feel.

About the organs. There were just too many to finish them all off in one era. I really don't think the work on the organs continued after the Emperor's entombment at the end of the Heresy, still I couldn't really find anything conclusive about when all the organs where invented. It still kind of works for me to spread them out a little.

What I read in the time-line on the WH40K-Wikia site was that there were some understanding of the Immaterium in the Age of Progress and the Warp Drive (or Engine) was invented during the DAoT. It seem to also have been suggested the early humans used a Phased Warp Drive or something like the Tau to get around without the Navigators for some time. The other reasons I ended that era with the Warp Engine was mostly that I couldn't see it lead to anything. I suppose one way is to let it have a long pipe to the next era though I think it really was considered one of the greatest achievements of that time. I'll think about it but I kind of like the end there with all the big things from the DAoT like STC, Warp Engine and Teleportation, as well as the belief in a Machine God.

I thought the Squats were just killed by the Tyranids, now I read GW removed all traces of their existence and even wouldn't republish books with mentioning of them... I'll see what I'll do. Hydroponics without without Squat really don't sound grimdark enough. I might change something there completely, still I kind of liked it as one of the few non-combat and non-mechanicus techs.

 

[Ahriman]

Here is my suggestion as a mod designer:
Start with the design purpose, and then work back to the names. You will get a much better mod if you have a game concept that is fun and that works, then go back to the names and details.

For example: think about how a game is going to play out. Does it really make sense to be passing through various ages that are many centuries long with multiple factions on the same planet? Does it really make sense to start with a settler and a single city, and start building up an empire from scratch? Do luxuries making people happy really make sense?

One idea I had a while ago (in a Civ4 context) was for devising a 40k mod that was really about simulating the invasion of a particular planet. The really key thing here was that the planet infrastructure and cities were largely present already, and so what the mod was really doing was simulating a war, with initial skirmish units and then gradually building up to more important units.
This could work even better with Civ5 mechanics, "purchasing" units from offworld with gold (or some other resource: use some kind of requisition point system instead of gold) rather than building them locally.

For another example: don't just start creating resources. Think about what they are going to be for.
Don't just create a bunch of strategic resources without a strong need for them.
You might be better off with a single "command point" resource, that was necessary for recruiting elite units. Or have a "manpower" resource. Or maybe a Relic resource (you have to control a relic to bring in an Inquisitor unit or something).
What are the different unit types that you want to have resources for? If you don't have 5 different unit types (that you're willing to let players not be able to get without the resource) then don't have 5 resources. Do the resources really map sensibly into a unit type?

Don't just create a tech-tree stuffed full of names; think about what kinds of general branches and techs you need.
The tree you have really looks too complex. I would start much smaller.

For social policies: think about what different playstyles they are going to support.

Think about which Civ mechanics actually make sense in a 40k before you try to duplicate them.

A 40k mod should feel different from a regular civ game; it shouldn't just be Civ5 with differently named units/buildings and different graphics.

Let me know (via PM) if you'd like more ideas on any of this.

 

[Ahriman]

Oh, and btw: the units look great.

 

[Skajaquada]

I appreciate the input. It's OK if we post here instead of PM.

The goal actually is to make a WH40k-version of Civ 5 (perhaps with a little more techs, policies, resources and so on) and then let other people worry about making maps and scenarios. I posted this in the first mod-thread but I'll say it again, just as Civ-games gives this warped view on our history and world I want this mod to give the same kind of warped view on the WH40K-universe.

Perhaps the biggest reason for this approach is that I'm not making the models from scratch, so the overall goal doesn't become showing off just a few WH40K-models in the Civ 5-engine. Plus with the relative ease of getting all these models in the game I feel I can set the sights that much higher. Another reason is that my personal preference is a normal Civ-game over a scenario.

Even so I could just say there's a Warp Storm that forced 18 unnamed Lord Commanders to the same planet, but I just love this Civ-magic... Even though starting with a Settler on a empty planet with random continents doesn't make much sense, it just takes a few turns and it feels like I'm building this empire. I think it'll be the same with this mod, or at-least it'll be a goal, that nothing really "makes sense" but at the same time it'll feel like you're commanding your Legion as a Primarch.

Also I agree with what you're saying of not starting with the details but to me the names are the very top, then comes to overall shape of the tech-tree (about what I'm trying to finish now), then what buildings, units and improvements could be tied to it all to actually work as a Civ-game. As I said I've also kept the names a little vague so I can rearrange pipes and even techs for balance.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Perhaps the biggest reason for this approach is that I'm not making the models from scratch, so the overall goal doesn't become showing off just a few WH40K-models in the Civ 5-engine.

Which reminds me, I wanted to ask where you got those models. I'd been looking for a few specific ones (like the Assault Terminator) for my own mod, but hadn't found anything serviceable.

 

[Skajaquada]

You really sure you want that? The Terminator is as iconic to WH40K as Darth Vader to Star Wars. These models have also got 4000-5000 polygons while I imagine the original Civ-ones have a few hundred. They really look awful next to each-other. If you want a melee-fighter I would recommend re-using the Longswordsman. He's completely covered in shiny metal so I think it would work as a robot-type unit. It should also be possible to do something in the FTSXML-file or unitmembers.xml to change the sounds and effects, maybe an explosion as hit-effect and GDR movement-sounds.

Otherwise they're from DoW2 but there was quite some work getting the models to work and a few things to learn with 3DS Max. I had to reduce the number of bones in each mesh as well as fight the odd bugs like only a single bone in a mesh causes it to disappear. Other bugs that I can remember were that some meshes had the wrong scale and position in-game and of-course every other import was corrupt. I also rather not just give you these models until I've released the mod first which will probably take several months. Then anyone can do whatever they want with them (I'm hoping lots of scenarios).

 

[Spatzimaus]

You really sure you want that? The Terminator is as iconic to WH40K as Darth Vader to Star Wars. These models have also got 4000-5000 polygons while I imagine the original Civ-ones have a few hundred.

I'm not worried about "iconic". If you've seen my mod, I steal lore from pretty much every science fiction source I can get my hands on; despite the Alpha Centauri name, I pull most of the units from other sources. As iconic as the Terminator is to WH40k fans, we're talking about a mod that includes either Godzilla or the Dune sandworm, depending on how you interpret it.

To the original point, I have two power armor infantry units I need models for: the Scout Powersuit and the Assault Powersuit. The Scout Powersuit was based on the Mobile Infantry's suits from Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie), although I could use a basic Space Marine model for them, and the Assault Powersuit was inspired somewhat by the Terminator suits. I've got some placeholders I can use for these in the short term, but it's not really ideal.

The poly count is obviously an issue; I'd prefer something a bit cruder, if only to lighten the load on people's graphics cards. I've been having crash issues that I think are related to graphical load as it is.

I also rather not just give you these models until I've released the mod first which will probably take several months. Then anyone can do whatever they want with them (I'm hoping lots of scenarios).

I didn't mean I wanted to steal your work, and I understand that you'd want it for your own mod first. It's just that I'm about to lock down v.1.0 of my mod, with all of the basic functionality complete, so I'm just getting started on the artwork side of things, and I've been trying to figure out where to get some of the models I need. I've been working on transferring some user-made Civ4 units over, which often don't look good next to the Civ5 units, but at least they're in easily importable formats.

 

[rezaf]

Out of curiosity, how did you manage to get the models into Civ5 in the first place?
I was under the impression this was somehow possible at one point using some kind of backdoor, but then Firaxis invented the term brokener for the toolset and that was the end of said route.
I just double checked before posting this, and the unit graphics subforum is still as deserted as I remember it.
So what's your secret ingredient?
_____
rezaf

 

[Ahriman]

The goal actually is to make a WH40k-version of Civ 5 (perhaps with a little more techs, policies, resources and so on) and then let other people worry about making maps and scenarios.

I don't think that is a very wise approach. You need at minimum one key scenario as a proof of concept.
But I think your mod will be much more effective if you design it around a particular style, rather than just creating content without a unified, tight, targeted design.

ust as Civ-games gives this warped view on our history and world I want this mod to give the same kind of warped view on the WH40K-universe.

This doesn't really make sense to me. Civ at least makes rough sense; there are a bunch of factions that start on the same planet, they gradually develop, advance and interact over time. Civ games model that to a reasonable approximation.
That kind of gameplay really doesn't make sense in a 40k setting.

Perhaps the biggest reason for this approach is that I'm not making the models from scratch, so the overall goal doesn't become showing off just a few WH40K-models in the Civ 5-engine.

I agree with this goal, but I think it would go in the opposite direction. I think if you want to create a game that feels like more than just Civ-with-different-unit-art then you need to change the core into a design that fits the setting.
If you keep the gameplay identical to vanilla Civ, then the only real difference is the graphics.

Also I agree with what you're saying of not starting with the details but to me the names are the very top, then comes to overall shape of the tech-tree (about what I'm trying to finish now), then what buildings, units and improvements could be tied to it all to actually work as a Civ-game.

To me, it makes much more sense to design how you want the game to play, and then think about the best way to accomplish that.
For example: to design social policies, think about what kind of playstyle you want each of them to support. What kind of different playstyles are possible?
In vanilla Civ5, you can have a few-but-large-cities playstyle, a many-scattered-cities playstyle, a military playstyle, a city-state playstyle, a specialist playstyle, etc.
You should think of the kind of playstyles you want to encourage before you pick social policies and name for them. Form follows function, not the reverse.

Similarly, think about how you want units to work.
How are you going to use ranged bombardment mechanics? How are you going to contrast melee units, infantry weapons, vehicles, artillery, aircraft, etc. and use civ mechanics?
Are you going to have water-based navies?
Set up your unit roles before you pick names, and then tech tree that supports them.

Think about the function you need your tech tree to perform; do you have growth lines, science lines, economic lines, industry lines? How are the military lines going to fit in? How is the late game going to differ from the early game?
Sort this out before designing the tree. Decide what each tech is going to do (eg: Tech X is needed to enable the first mobile vehicle, tech Y enables an industrial booster, etc.) and how they need to interact with dependences and strategically interesting alternative tech lines before you start picking names.

Think about how you are going to map the civ5 mechanics into your game.
City states? Culture? Food? Roads? Workers? Settlers? Gold? Policies? What will these represent?

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I wish you all the best on your mod.

 

[Spatzimaus]

But I think your mod will be much more effective if you design it around a particular style, rather than just creating content without a unified, tight, targeted design.

I have to agree here. Too many mods just throw custom graphics or new civs into the mix, but under the hood they're just the stock game. If you want your mod to work well in the long run, you need to make it play in a fun and balanced way, and THEN worry about the aesthetics. (There's a reason I left the unit graphics for last in my own mod, and it's not just because 3D models are the most problematic. They're the LEAST important part of a good mod, IMNSHO.)

So I'd suggest laying out your tech tree. Figure out which eras will be Wonder-heavy (or if you'll even have Wonders at all), which ones will be loaded with units, which will have a lot of infrastructure, and so on. Figure out what each building should DO, and try to make it more interesting than "+50% research". Figure out what promotions you need and/or what custom Lua functions you'd want to add to make the units actually feel different than the stock game's boring units. Figure out yields; what does Culture represent in your mod, and how much of it would you really want each player to have, given that so many of your proposed trees are race-specific? Would each side really have Worker units to improve the local terrain, or would they just gain the yields some other way?


The way I see it, there are four ways you can structure this sort of mod.

1> The pure Civ5 method; each side goes through all eras over thousands of years, and yet it's all on a single planet. To me, this one doesn't work.
2> The "galactic" map, where each city represents a planet. This has been done for quite a few mods in Civ4, although 1UPT might cause problems here. But this has potential; if each "city" is on an island, and each island's size corresponds to the max number of units it can support (since each unit would only take up 1 hex and you'd disable embarkation), you could use this to make planets unique.
3> A combat scenario, i.e. a wargame with minimal tech increases. You wouldn't go through half a dozen eras. Analogous to the WW2 scenarios everyone loves.
4> The SMAC/SMAC-X model: colonists with almost nothing crash on a planet, and their "research" is actually just recovering the technologies that they already had previously. This gives an excuse to have all sides start off with almost nothing and still get tech progression, and also explains why the leaders of each side don't change from era to era. Unfortunately, explaining why each side reached the planet with equal forces and no technology might be a problem, unless you use the SMAC model and have them all be Human factions that arrived on the same transport. Sure, one group might have gone over to Chaos after crashing, but you wouldn't have Eldar, Tyrannids, etc.

Your choices on the above will significantly alter the balance on the rest of the mod.

 

[Skajaquada]

It's really just a preference I've got for the normal game over the scenarios. The problem with islands-are-planets approach is that I don't have any ship-models so whatever way this is done it really should be ground-heavy with lots of open spaces. However I was thinking of just renaming the modern boats to space-ships from WH40K and let them be permanent place-holders then turn a blind eye to that the water isn't space (though I won't make the islands spherical, I think that'll just cripple the immersion rather than aid it, at-least without the ship-models). If they would just release the DLL-things I've had some ideas of a separate screen like a star-map where you can switch between maps (then maybe each map could be smaller but all-land representing a landing-zone or something). Since that's not happening the "new" things I've had in mind are magic-abilities for units, morale attack-modifiers and so on. Though that doesn't feel like a top-priority to nail down right now.

On point 4 with your mod you're still "researching" techs and not finding them in ruins or something? I'm really not 100% sure if it's the game-play or the explanation of the game-play you're talking about. If it's the latter I don't really see how this affect anything, the starting-era is about the time new planets were being colonized so you could be playing on earth or you could be somewhere else. There are also many fluff-notes about wars between Terra and Mars were Terra was almost completly levelled. The "start" could be about the time the dust settled. Though I really think it'll be the same as in the original Civ 5 and you'll stop notice these things pretty quick. Also Tyranids and Orks are barbarians and Eldar are city-states (I feel pretty decided on this).

I really appreciate the input. The rest of what you mention is exactly what I'm trying to think about now. I'd love to hear more about how the normal game-mechanics really work. Now I've been looking at the original tech-tree and try to see these things... My plan is really to try to copy the overall structure of the thing, not how the pipes go but the manner how they spread out, lead to buildings and units requiring different resources. Wonder-era was something I had completely missed. If anything I think I'll make it a little more unit-heavy than the original one, with units with properties reminding of those in WH40K (Terminators being strong but slow and weak to flanking, Devestator-units being long-range etc.).

I was thinking of doing something similar with the Social Policies. For example Nurgle being the nemesis of Tzeentch (locking out each-other), as well as giving clear bonuses (reduces unhappiness, one-shot Greater Daemon). Then since Titan-buildings will produce Culture (Dominance) the Collegia Titanica I guess would share the Piety bonuses with Nurgle. Then maybe I can have some nuances between militaristic ones like "Imperial Guard" and "Adeptus Astartes" if the latter one isn't just more of the same but available later. Will this be a problem? If anything I suppose there will be fewer policies for each branch, but that can be balanced. It should still work like the normal mechanics of Civ 5, which is really the plan.

@Ahriman The function is Civ 5, the form is WH40K I really appreciate your input, everything you say is what I'm trying to think about now. Though I'm not really sure, do you have some idea of a new game-mechanic that would work well with a WH40K-setting?

 

[Spatzimaus]

The problem with islands-are-planets approach is that I don't have any ship-models so whatever way this is done it really should be ground-heavy with lots of open spaces.

Actually not a problem. Imagine, if you will, a map with tons of small islands; not quite archipelago level, in that some of the islands would have 10 or more hexes in a roughly circular distribution, but no massive continents. On each island would be a single city, representing a planet.

All you'd need to do is add some lua functions to bestow "paradrop"-type promotions to units at certain times (say, if a unit starts a turn within a city). Their paradrop would represent travel to a new planet. You could try re-enabling the Airlift code as well for movement within friendly territory, but you'd need paradrops for attacking a new planet. If you want to make a scenario where it's impossible for ships to meet each other in transit, then this is how you'd do it.

Not saying that this'd be the best way to do things, but it's workable without needing to add tons of transport units.

On point 4 with your mod you're still "researching" techs and not finding them in ruins or something?

To be clear, when I said SMAC-like, I was referring to the actual SMAC, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, not my own mod. The plotline of SMAC was that a UN-made ship, the Unity, was sabotaged en route to Alpha Centauri. In transit, the colonists had separated into several factions, with differing philosophies. Once they got close, the colonists loaded into a number of lifeboats with enough basic supplies to get started, and landed on Planet while the empty ship crashed. That's where the game starts, with a single settler unit for each faction and an empty tech tree. For the first few tiers of techs, it's clear that you're rediscovering things already known, not moving forward technologically.

The point was that you could do something similar in the WH40k universe. A ship crash-lands on an uninhabited world, with little usable technology (so the early military units would be somewhat low-tech; no Terminators), and splits into a few competing factions. This'd allow you to go from low-tech to high-tech in a single game, without ACTUALLY progressing for thousands of years. So the game actually takes place in the final era, but you still see the whole tree, and you could easily put Humans and Chaos into the game.
Adding in other races might be kind of a stretch, but it worked well enough in the Alien Crossfire expansion for SMAC, where two alien ships at war with each other crash-landed onto the newly colonized planet.

 

[orlanth]

Actually not a problem. Imagine, if you will, a map with tons of small islands; not quite archipelago level, in that some of the islands would have 10 or more hexes in a roughly circular distribution, but no massive continents. On each island would be a single city, representing a planet.

I love this idea.. The Colonization: 2071 mod of Civ4 uses a mapscript made by TC01 to generate circular planets in a "sea" of space exactly as you're describing (you can see screenshots of how it works at the links in my sig). This worked out very well giving a unique flavor to gameplay, and IMHO would be a great way to go for modding epic WH40K interplanetary battles in Civ5 : allowing multiple land battles to rage across the terrain of strategic planets while ships slug it out in space or bombard from above..

 

[Ahriman]

I agree with Spatzimaus; we seem to have the same general take here.
Get an interesting design that fits the theme, then fill in the details with canon content.

I would recommend either modified versions of:

2> The "galactic" map, where each city represents a planet

or

3> A combat scenario, i.e. a wargame with minimal tech increases.

If you did 2:
Each planet would be either 1 tile radius, or 2 tile radius; ie either 7 tiles, or 19 tiles. Or maybe even rare 3 tile radius. So a city placed on the center tile could work every tile.
There would be a large number of tiles between planets.
Each planet could have 1 city on it (you set the minimum distance between cities to be quite high).

I think this would actually work better with 1upt mechanics than it did in Civ4.
Embarking units as transports would work well, as would 1upt fleets and land armies.

Not sure about trade routes; you could use harbors as space ports, but that would force the city to be on the coast.

However, this kind of method would end up being fairly focused on the space units, rather than the ground units. But it's doable. Making the naval units very expensive might help with this, to keep their numbers down and encourage swarming a planet with ground units as a much more cost-effective means of conquering. [Though, should a ground-based artillery unit be able to shoot and take out a space-ship?]

Or you could try and do it the other way, with relocation and paradrops, but it would be tough to teach the AI to use that.

If you did method 3: then you move to a much more tactical focus.
My preferred method would be to simulate the invasion of a particular planet.
Each faction starts with a single city. There are a large number of city states. The mapscript generates a large number of pre-placed special features, which use the mechanics for natural wonders (eg: a Manufactorium natural wonder, or a Chaos Relic natural wonder, or whatever) or great people improvements. Superior roads start in some places (using railroad mechanics?).
There are no settlers. You survive solely by conquering or allying with the city states, and maybe some neutrals; you could have a rebel Imperial Guard faction, that had low tech but high numbers, and have the main faction players conquer the rebels and take their cities.
There can be workers, but they can build only basic, simple improvements.

Many of the core mechanics are changed.
Rather than culture, we have influence points, that represent political control and influence on the planet. As you gain influence, you take control of more territory and gain imp
Rather than food, we have manpower. Some units can be built using food, and the more manpower you get, you grow the size of your base, work more tiles, get more resources, build/buy more stuff.
Production can stay as is.
Gold turns into credits, or requisition points of some kind.
Research could be viewed as the perceived local importance of the conflict, a la Dawn of War Games. So as you convince the higher ups that this planet is more important, you gain access to more stuff.
Or could be doctrinal choice.

Alternatively, you could remove the beaker/research system entirely, and just move to using social policies as means of unlocking new units or doctrines.
Or vice versa; remove social policies and just use techs.

Some policies might support tile yield increases, others might give military bonuses. Some might help you conquering the city states or the IG, others might support allying them and working with them. One policy tree might just be about bringing in new units, or might (if you are good with coding) unlock some extra abilities, like airstrikes.

If we have a tech-tree, then it is fairly short. Maybe 30 techs. It could vary widely across factions.

Have a handful of unit roles. There are Melee units. These are like swordsmen. They could be specialized in city attack. There are ranged units, these might function like riflemen.
There are jump troops, which function like paratroopers.
There are light vehicles. These function like Civ horsemen, or maybe chariot archers (with move after attack). There are tanks; these function like knights, or maybe like Narusan's elephant (2 move, tough, vulnerable to AT weapons). There are Anti-tank weapons. These function like AT guns, or spearmen.
There are artillery units, which function like, well, artillery. You could mix with both fairly mobile ones, that are like archers, and set-up weapons teams, that are like catapults.
And there could be some hero units, with a light RPG-like system of promotions and upgrades, which could specialize them in different directions, gaining pieces of artifact equipment or whatever to make them tougher or more specialized.

Its also possible to merge both these ideas. Start with the simple, combat scenario, and get that to work. Then build a larger one with tech increase.

Anyway, just random brainstorming. The key idea is:
a) Don't just make Civ5 with different graphics
b) Pick a core design first, and a gameplay vision of how the mod will play, and then fit design-work around it as necessary
c) Make a design document and put it together as a coherent whole before you start the coding. You will still make lots of changes later, particularly as you discover what is and is not moddable, but the core should be set.

 

[TheChanger]

i agree with ahriman whole heartedly here. Function trumps fluff in my oppinion. If you have an awesome name for something or some cool idea from WH40K fluff but no fun gameplay design behind it, it is effectively a waste of space in the mod.

for example im working with Alzara on Naerealith Reborn and we are still in design phase. ill use buildings as an example: i start with an excel spread sheet with as many possible effects listed as i can think of (including effects that currently are not feasable due to coding limitations, dont let that stop you as there is usually a work around) and then i combine a few of the effects to create some really interesting combos which enhance certain play styles, with particular buildigns filling dedicated roles. the key is to make each thing you design unique or it loses the tactical importance.

the same thing can be said for units, improvements, traits and so on.

I also prefer

3> A combat scenario, i.e. a wargame with minimal tech increases.

based on what ahriman explained. a planetary invasion mod would be awesome

just my 2cents as well but there you have it.

 

[Ahriman]

To be clear; going with a planetary invasion wargame doesn't have to mean just a scenario. Someone who understood mapscripts could write a mapscript ("Kronus"?) that created random maps with the same based characteristics, that placed resources, natural wonders, super-improvements, city states, "barbarian" IG rebels etc. at map start. This would significantly add to replay value.