What are your thoughts on BitCoin?

[Kozmos]

There are no limits on how much they can create?

Ah apparently not, but they got 55 billion in cryptographic escrow, which they control:

https://ripple.com/insights/ripple-escrows-55-billion-xrp-for-supply-predictability/

It could turn out fine, but just highlights the point that cryptotech won't put financial institutions out of a job. As long as fiat is insured by governments and their regulations there is almost no reason to hold your money in a mattress or on some blockchain that could potentially be compromised by malicious actors or environmental factors.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Went up from $2.52 to $2.76 since I got in a few hours ago

XLM went from 29 cents 2 days ago to over 1 dollar today. Already hating myself for not buying more, even though I just tripled my investment. As soon as I've made a little money on the side I'm out of this game, it's just too psychologically taxing.

 

[Moriarte]

A medium of exchange is not useful as a currency if its value is not stable. The vast fluctuations in the value of BTC make it absolutely useless as a currency. Nobody ever doubted that it is technically possible to use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, but a medium of exchange that people aren't willing to exchange freely because of fluctuations in value is NOT a currency.

It's not a currency de facto best suited for microtransactions and what not, it is, however, a currency which enables access to plethora of other currencies - this is the main reason keeping btc afloat, the main reason it haven't crashed miserably even though it deserves it, given transaction time/cost. So please, if you wanna stay on the dark side, do so, but bear in mind the argument that BTC is "useless as a currency" is beyond simplistic and just shows levels of understanding.

Not only it is a currency, it is way beyond what the word used to mean.

 

[Moriarte]

Check this out - interactive transaction fees chart for 20 currencies

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/zcash-transactionfees.html

 

[Narz]

XLM went from 29 cents 2 days ago to over 1 dollar today. Already hating myself for not buying more, even though I just tripled my investment. As soon as I've made a little money on the side I'm out of this game, it's just too psychologically taxing.

Yeah it's very tempting to check constantly but not worth getting emotional about every swing.

 

[Archbob]

I Bought $100 worth of PAC 4 days ago and now its $380, stuff like this happens. I like ripple less than the other Cryptos because its supply is controlled by 1 company/entity.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Yeah, same, I don't trust the people behind ripple in the slightest and wouldn't give em a cent to be honest. OTOH as an investment, ripple is fantastic.. Especially if you got in before December

 

[metalhead]

It's not a currency de facto best suited for microtransactions and what not, it is, however, a currency which enables access to plethora of other currencies - this is the main reason keeping btc afloat, the main reason it haven't crashed miserably even though it deserves it, given transaction time/cost. So please, if you wanna stay on the dark side, do so, but bear in mind the argument that BTC is "useless as a currency" is beyond simplistic and just shows levels of understanding.

Not only it is a currency, it is way beyond what the word used to mean.

Why do I need Bitcoin to "access other currencies?" What does that even mean? I can access other currencies a hundred different ways already.

I mean, your post pretty much admits it's useless as currency.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Why do I need Bitcoin to "access other currencies?" What does that even mean? I can access other currencies a hundred different ways already.

I mean, your post pretty much admits it's useless as currency.

okay, once again, last try because you're being really thick. you can, in the matter of mere minutes, set up a credit card based on bitcoin that'll allow you to shop like any other credit card would. there is not just one, but many companies doing/developing that right now.

here: https://bitpay.com/card/

by 'other currencies' moriarte meant altcoins. bitcoin, ethereum, litecoin and bitcoin cash are the only ways (right now) to have access to this fast pool of assets. that is bitcoins primary use. if you want to, view it like this: bitcoin gives you access to a highly exclusive, very volatile stock market that you cannot buy in with any other currency.

however, bitcoins usage is fading in that regard. ethereum and litecoin are just so much faster and so much cheaper to transact with.

 

[metalhead]

okay, once again, last try because you're being really thick. you can, in the matter of mere minutes, set up a credit card based on bitcoin that'll allow you to shop like any other credit card would. there is not just one, but many companies doing/developing that right now.

here: https://bitpay.com/card/

by 'other currencies' moriarte meant altcoins. bitcoin, ethereum, litecoin and bitcoin cash are the only ways (right now) to have access to this fast pool of assets. that is bitcoins primary use. if you want to, view it like this: bitcoin gives you access to a highly exclusive, very volatile stock market that you cannot buy in with any other currency.

And why do I need this? How does this have applicability across society? I already have a credit card. If I was unwilling or unable to get a credit card, I can instantly obtain a prepaid debit card with USD.

More importantly, how does this in any way compensate for the fact that I might spend Bitcoins today that might be worth 20% more next week? I'm not arguing that Bitcoins can't function as a medium of exchange. I'm arguing that the potential cost of spending them is far too high for it to ever be widely adopted as a medium of exchange.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

And why do I need this? How does this have applicability across society? I already have a credit card. If I was unwilling or unable to get a credit card, I can instantly obtain a prepaid debit card with USD.

More importantly, how does this in any way compensate for the fact that I might spend Bitcoins today that might be worth 20% more next week? I'm not arguing that Bitcoins can't function as a medium of exchange. I'm arguing that the potential cost of spending them is far too high for it to ever be widely adopted as a medium of exchange.

But then, aside from the BitCoin market being volatile, what is your actual criticism of its utility? I think we can all agree with you on that fact, infact the altcoin market is even more ridic than BitCoin itself. We've established that BitCoin can serve as a currency and an asset at the same time. That is a utility and a niche that was not properly carved out before. You can't pay your groceries with gold, or with an apartment in NYC, or with stocks. You don't make (much) money off of a few thousand sitting in your bank account. I suppose we don't disagree on much then.

 

[metalhead]

But then, aside from the BitCoin market being volatile, what is your actual criticism of its utility?

There is no aside from that. That alone completely destroys its utility.

The whole point of a currency is that its value fluctuates slowly enough that people do not stand to gain or lose appreciably in the relatively short term by exchanging it for goods. And there are whole regulatory and central banking regimes in place in many countries to ensure that stability.

BitCoins can't function as a currency. It's an illusion. That's my criticism. What person would spend Bitcoins that might be worth 10% more next week? What merchant is going to accept Bitcoins that might be worth 10% less next week? Price stability is absolutely critical to the wide adoption of Bitcoin as a real, functioning currency. People running it to make it look like it's currency are pretty much just pulling a fast one.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Almost everywhere in the world there are ATMs where you can cash out BTC. Even in my 250k people city there are shops where you can already pay with BTC. How more real can it get? Do you want them to press actual coins? At this point it is established as a currency.

Nearest bitcoin ATM to me is a 2 hour drive away. How many shops really accept it? I mean bitcoin supporters will tout that Subway accepts them, but it appears it is only 1 subway (Allentown, PA).
What the guy spent on bitcoins to buy the first sandwich would now be worth at least $280. The FBI who took 144,000 bitcoins from that Silk Road guy in 2013, those coins would be worth 1.9 billion!

 

[Moriarte]

BitCoins can't function as a currency. It's an illusion. That's my criticism. What person would spend Bitcoins that might be worth 10% more next week? What merchant is going to accept Bitcoins that might be worth 10% less next week? Price stability is absolutely critical to the wide adoption of Bitcoin as a real, functioning currency. People running it to make it look like it's currency are pretty much just pulling a fast one.

It doesn’t need to function as petty cash. There are other cryptos who declare and pursue this goal with varying degrees of success. BTC evolved into being temp. value store and into an instrument used to trade vast array of altcoins, while other crypto’s have the luxury of fine tuning and experimenting with their newly created networks to get, in return, superior features, like lower tx cost/ smartcontracts/ increased security etc. Bitcoin is old news, but it serves very important purpose still, which I described in the previous post. A temporary gate-keeper to the cryptoworld. Perhaps we might even get to discuss other crypto-currencies trying to become the new petty cash at some point in the thread after you and few others sort out the “bitcoin can’t function as a currency” phantom trouble..

 

[metalhead]

And they won't be currencies either without a way to stabilize their value.

If BitCoin is useless outside of the world of cryptos, then that's exactly as useless as I thought it was.

 

[Cheetah]

All blockchains and all of their coins are useless, because for every imagined application, there are better alternative solutions.

It is still possible to speculate and make money on this stuff though. Even I am tempted, but while the stock market doesn't fluctuate as much, I find it far easier to make sense of.

 

[dutchfire]

All blockchains and all of their coins are useless, because for every imagined application, there are better alternative solutions.

Avoiding capital controls when exporting money out of China.

 

[Cheetah]

Well, alright. I'll grant you that it has uses for criminal activities. Which is why most governments will make it illegal to buy or sell coins – or at least make it illegal to set up and run facilities for such exchanges.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Which is why most governments will make it illegal to buy or sell coins – or at least make it illegal to set up and run facilities for such exchanges.

Do you genuinely believe that? People have been buying their drugs with BitCoin for almost a decade now and still most governments haven't even made an attempt to shut it down. And why would they? Germany taxes income from BitCoin so incredibly high that the state can get filthy rich off of it. Only a month ago the bank secret was ruled out, so basically the only way to get rich off of crypto and not pay taxes is to either flee to a rogue state or try your hand at money laundering.

 

[Cheetah]

Yes.

States are big, heavy and powerful machines. They do not turn easily, and rulers would be fools if they would jump at every new development straight away.

Bitcoin is new, and small. Since it is new, regulators still need more time to figure out what kind of impact it has, how it functions, and what can be done about it. Politicians need to be brought up to speed, and then they need to make decisions on it. And since bitcoin is small, it's effects has been small in any case, so there hasn't been any pressing need to move very quickly with this. Lots of white washing and drug trading happens without coins being involved.

That is changing. Regulators from many countries are constantly watching and thinking about this.

At the moment their most pressing concern is that this is an unregulated market, and that lots and lots of regular people are being tempted to put their money into something that can suddenly collapse. The fear is that such a crash can be big enough to unleash a cascade of problems throughout the economy. There's a reason why the stock market is as regulated as it was (and that it used to be even more regulated). Regulators still remember and consider the Great Depression, the Panic of 1837, the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis, the Japanese asset price bubble, the Dot Com bubble, the Great Recession, etc., etc.

If we end up with a proper collapse in coins, and lots of regular people lose their money, and a non-trivial amount of them suddenly find it hard to service their debt, then there will definitely be political pressure to do something about it.

And before that happens, it is quite possible that regulators will finally conclude that there is no real use in this technology, and will find it best to regulate it by shutting it down before it becomes a more serious problem. Of course, if lots of people are invested at that time, they might cook up some way of gradually regulating it to extinction.