What are your thoughts on BitCoin?

I'm almost certain that BitCoin will fade away sometime in the future and I am also sure that the altcoin market will crash - Because all markets crash at some point. You don't have to be wise to predict that. But I don't really see the technology behind altcoins not making it. Blockchain is very versatile and we probably haven't discovered most of it's uses yet.

Also it's not like altcoins are somehow one unified entity. The whole point, in the beginning, was to have a decentralized currency that is somewhat independent of political and economic meddling. There are already countries that have tried to ban BitCoin with very little success (Nigeria, Colombia and Taiwan that I know of..) yet there are still many people in Taiwan trading.

If this specific market gets shut down, who is stopping the next tech startup from developing an even better decentralized currency, asset, call it what you want, where new people join and speculate? Banning a technology is infinitely complex, imagine if someone came at you in y2k and told you that "states are going to ban the internet soon".
 
Looks like steps are now being taken to prevent people from converting their crypto currency into a usable form:


Several major pre-paid cards that allow users to make payments and ATM withdrawals using their Bitcoin and cryptocurrency funds were suspended as of January 5.

Bitcoin or Ethereum wallets." data-reactid="19">Cards including BitPay, Cryptopay and Bitwala all announced they had suspended their cards and were working to return funds to users. All the cards make payments using regular currencies such as pounds or Euros, but allow users to fund the payments from Bitcoin or Ethereum wallets.

"Following an announcement from our card issuer on behalf of Visa Europe, Bitwala cards are taken out of operation starting today," Bitwala said on Twitter.

Many Bitcoin payment cards are operated using Visa provider WaveCrest, a Gibraltar-based company. WaveCrest reportedly emailed card holders informing them Visa had ordered it to close all pre-paid cards.

"Unfortunately, our card issuer instructed us to cease all Cryptopay prepaid cards starting January 5th, 2018," London-based Cryptopay said on Twitter. "All funds stored on cards are safe and will be returned to your Cryptopay accounts ASAP."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/visa-locks-down-bitcoin-payment-142800613.html
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/visa-locks-down-bitcoin-payment-142800613.html
Crypto currencies will fail because the financial establishment wants them to fail. Just like cable companies destroyed net neutrality to save cable TV.
 
Whoever thought that money laundering would go mainstream and by a process far worse than tulip mania?

Unless a resource has an intrinsic value....then it is CURRENCY not money. These are the madcap times we live in when clueless people think currency is money. They are not synonymous.

Most currency are really a debt instruments....nothing more. It is an IOU...ie a promissory note. Bitcoin is similar to buying first issue comic books in the nineties as investments and is ridiculous in the final analysis.

Yet some profited by this absurdity.

What's more, even newer bitcoin wannabees created even newer harebrained schemes and you might have earned even more.


Are you aware that some actually got in legal trouble by coining true money in the eighties and nineties by using gold and silver, and yet that was illegal but economically sound versus Bitcoin?
 
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Crypto currencies will fail because the financial establishment wants them to fail. Just like cable companies destroyed net neutrality to save cable TV.

I am not as certain. Just yesterday I hopped few thousands worth of zcash through 4 wallets located in different parts of our world. Took roughly a minute for each transaction to complete and cost less than $0.01 total to do so. Total. What does conventional banking has on offer to counter that? It's a question of technology and market maturing and public becoming informed to the point it ends up being trivial to make direct payments in crypto of your choice in multitude of places. Sure, there is a good chance it will remain niche, but in my mind, economically, I can't see why more people wouldn't be using crypto as time goes by to save on transfer costs and speed up transfer times dramatically.
 
Of course people are doing it, but at what risk, and violating what laws? What checks and balances guard against loss versus depositors' insurance by the government? How do you generate tax revenue if uncertain of financial transactions?

Ever hear of Confederate money?

Caveat emptor, I reckon.
 
What does conventional banking has on offer to counter that?

They don't have to counter it, they can just shut it down. Visa already proved it can be done by shutting down any pre-paid card that was funded with crypto currencies. What's to stop banks from doing the same thing?

"Oh, you want to fund your account with us using crypto currencies? Sorry, we don't allow that."

Every major bank and credit card company starts saying that, and all of a sudden all that Bitcoin you have becomes worthless because you can't convert it into a usable form to purchase goods and services. Basically, the financial establishment realizes they can't crash the crypto currency market, so they are just going to make it impossible for you to "cash out" and actually turn that investment into real wealth.
 
Oh you will still be able to convert it, just not in straight forward ways. And banks wash drug money because crime pays so don't think banks won't take Bitcoin in say Grand Cayman.
 
Oh you will still be able to convert it, just not in straight forward ways. And banks wash drug money because crime pays so don't think banks won't take Bitcoin in say Grand Cayman.

That's what the financial establishment wants. They want the crypto currencies to just go back to being this little thing that people use to buy illegal goods. Allowing it to be anything more than that is a threat to their business model, which is why they are starting to come out aggressively against it now.
 
Of course people are doing it, but at what risk, and violating what laws?

The risk of forgetting the unique id, risk of a hack, risk of currency going under because people stop using it and hop to other crypto, the risk of a software error attributing the sum to a wrong recipient, the risk of network downtime, the risk of unfavourable price swing, when using crypto as day to day currency. Plenty of those, at this stage.

As for the laws, I am curious myself which ones I might have violated with my doings.

What checks and balances guard against loss versus depositors' insurance by the government? How do you generate tax revenue if uncertain of financial transactions?

Check and balances are supposed to be part of the code (the algorithm) with developers heaving a measure of control in adjusting "monetary policies" according to the market situation they are in. Interaction with government is something that is been talked about more lately with few c.currencies making an early push to try integrate with this space. Example: Cardano.

Ever hear of Confederate money?

Yes
 
A huge number of bitcoins just evaporated into the aether so I am not buying its validity as currency.

4 million bitcoins gone forever and how much is that equal to? And how long before it happens again? And is that the only instance?

One estimate is that was worth 30 billion US dollars but that sounds low to me.
 
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"Give me a working, safe & stable currency and I might consider going in". Fair enough, you're not alone in thinking that way. I, on the other hand, am willing to take risks of early adopter with money I can afford to lose.
 
As far as I know, even natural resources are foolishly valued according to international scales which is absurd. The oil within a country cannot be replaced, nor can its coal, or gold, or whatever. So this means that in all honesty the intrinsic worth of US domestic oil is truly infinite as it is nonrenewable. That's my economic theory. Whatever oil you have is worth more and shouldn't be sold internationally as once it is gone, the shortage raises the value of other oil.

Taking that economic philosophy then renewable energy and its research and development is hindered by the addled who grasp at petroleum and facilitates state terrorism in the Middle East.

And this is contingent upon a pressing need for that natural resource to produce goods and services. Otherwise say Tanzinite which is a precious gem from Tanzania is beautiful but just colored stones...nothing more.

Compare the enormous potential wealth of rare earth metals in North Korea potentially worth 6-10 trillion US$ and absolutely essential to the world economy and the future.

Almost all currency is honestly worthless debt instruments(due to deficit spending and the mechanism of creating "dollars" through issuing debt and govered by the Federal Reserve and this goofy delusion is how several thousand extreme wealthy folkfs dominate billions of people.

Note that the Federal Reserve are NOT an agency of the US government despite the name.

It's a scam.

“Should government refrain from regulation (taxation), the worthlessness of the money becomes apparent and the FRAUD can no longer be concealed.” — British Lord John Maynard Keynes

  • When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in our account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money.
    • Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, Putting It Simply (1984); reported in Peter Cook, Federal reserve, fractional reserve and interest-free government credit explained in question and answer form (1991), p. 57. The earliest use of the statement, "[w]hen the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money" appears to come from the United States Congress, House Banking and Currency Committee, Money Facts: 169 Questions and Answers on Money (1964), p. 9.
  • Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities. Intrinsically, a dollar bill is just a piece of paper, deposits merely book entries. Coins do have some intrinsic value as metal, but generally far less than their face value.
    • Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Modern Money Mechanics (1975).

You will never learn that during your university education.

But at least this scam has a modicum of plausibility versus Bitcoin.

Technically those who generate Bitcoins and who engage in transactions are committing at least one felony and probably three more.
18 U.S.C. § 486 – Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
 
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As far as I know, even natural resources are foolishly valued according to international scales which is absurd

They aren't foolishly valued, they are worth exactly as much as political-economical-logistical situation allows them to be worth today.

Note that the Federal Reserve are NOT an agency of the US government despite the name.

Despite it not being an agency, as you say, FED chairman/vice are appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate.
 
I'm almost certain that BitCoin will fade away sometime in the future and I am also sure that the altcoin market will crash - Because all markets crash at some point. You don't have to be wise to predict that. But I don't really see the technology behind altcoins not making it. Blockchain is very versatile and we probably haven't discovered most of it's uses yet.

Also it's not like altcoins are somehow one unified entity. The whole point, in the beginning, was to have a decentralized currency that is somewhat independent of political and economic meddling. There are already countries that have tried to ban BitCoin with very little success (Nigeria, Colombia and Taiwan that I know of..) yet there are still many people in Taiwan trading.

If this specific market gets shut down, who is stopping the next tech startup from developing an even better decentralized currency, asset, call it what you want, where new people join and speculate? Banning a technology is infinitely complex, imagine if someone came at you in y2k and told you that "states are going to ban the internet soon".
I don't really think you can stop the technology. I doubt all the Cryptos will crash at once and at this point, there are going to be some that see heavy usage.
Firstly, the blockchain technology will not be stopped, of course. No one is suggesting that a specific technology will be banned, and any reading of my posts in that direction are incorrect.

Secondly, I do not limit my argument to Bitcoin. Bitcoin's inherent problems, which are evident even to crypto-currency proponents, have been explained to me multiple times and at length. My arguments concern all forms of crypto-currency that I have had explained to me. I use the term 'coin' to refer to all the different crypto-currencies, as I'm pretty tired of the 'alt' prefix used in 'alt-coin', and because crypto-currencies are too long to write.

Thirdly, I also have arguments against the blockchain technology itself, which I will come back to.

Now, I said trading in coins will be made illegal, and it seems that you read that as me arguing that it will become illegal to run certain types of code on networked computers. That is of course not what will happen. What will be made illegal will be to offer financial services to buy and sell coins. This can be done by simply banning banks and financial institutions from allowing transactions which are involved with coin trading. This will put an end to any coin exchanges which allow users to exchange hard currency for coins, and to later redeem coins for hard currency again. Some countries have already started to do this, but it will be the financial power of the US which will finally order Visa, Mastercard et al. to cease such trades. When that happens other governments will be able to stop their local financial institutions from doing it, and it will become very hard to get hard currency from coins.

One will still be able to mine as much as ones electricity bill will permit, of course. And you're free to exchange Bitcoins with Etherums with Dogecoins with whatever-coins you come up with. But there will no longer be any easy and large scale way of converting that to actual hard, useful money.

In conclusion, coins will not be permitted to interact with the economy at large once regulators and politicians come to realise that there is nothing worthwhile with them, and that they are useless, but dangerous economic bubbles. Coins are useless as a store of value and as a medium of exchange because they fluctuate too much. Even if they were to magically stabilise, they are useless as actual currencies because they are designed specifically to not be controlled easily, and will be unable to deflate and inflate to match the needs of the economy. At best they'll be a new gold standard, or a cartel controlled quasi gold standard, at worst they'll be completely unreliable and herald in a new economic depression.

The blockchain technology itself is of academic interest, if nothing else. A distributed (thus public), hard-to-control ledger of previous transactions might have its uses. However, so far not a single application for blockchains have been found which is actually superior to existing methods! A friend of mine is heavily arguing in favour or digital contracts à la Etherum, but I am yet to be convinced. The problems one purports to solve with blockchains are never technological problems, but problems related to humans, law, politics, et al., and the interactions and relationships between those.

What does conventional banking has on offer to counter that? [...] save on transfer costs and speed up transfer times dramatically.
A lot. Instead of typing it out, I'd refer to you this blog post, which does a very good job of taking apart the whole blockchain revolution: https://hackernoon.com/ten-years-in-nobody-has-come-up-with-a-use-case-for-blockchain-ee98c180100 (Posted earlier in this thread, but it seems a lot of people didn't read it.)

Kai Stinchcombe said:
[...]

Payments and banking

[...] Visa and MasterCard actually sit on top of dollar-based banking transactions, providing a set of value-added services like enabling banks to track fraud disputes, and verifying the identity of the buyer and seller. It turns out that for the person paying for a product, the key feature of a new payment system — think of PayPal in its early days — is the confidence that if the goods aren’t as described you’ll get your money back. And for the person accepting payment, basically the key feature is that their customer has it, and is willing to use it. Add in points, credit lines, and a free checked bag on any United flight and you have something that consumers choose and merchants accept. Nobody actually wants to pay with bitcoin, which is why it hasn’t taken off. [...]

Freedom to transact without government supervision

[...]

The government-backed banking system provides FDIC guarantees, reversibility of ACH, identity verification, audit standards, and an investigation system when things go wrong. Bitcoin, by design, has none of these things. I saw a remarkable message thread by someone whose bitcoin account got drained because their email had been hacked and their password was stolen. They were stunned to have no recourse! And this is widespread — in 2014, the then-#1 bitcoin trader, Mt. Gox, also lost $400m of investor money due to security failures. The subsequent #1 bitcoin trader, Bitfinex, also shut down after a loss of customer funds. Imagine the world if more banks had been drained of customer funds than not. Bitcoin is what banking looked like in the middle ages — “here’s your libertarian paradise, have a nice day.”

[This issue is particularly near and dear to my heart because my own company, True Link, is designed to help vulnerable seniors — people likely to give out their credit card number over the phone, enter sketchy sweepstakes or donate to sketchy charities, participate in scam investments, or install password-stealing malware. As the people who most need security enhancements in banking and payments, they depend heavily on the existing protections and would absolutely be harmed by many of the proposed changes in favor of private-key authenticated, instant, and irreversible transfers. Someone starting from a human perspective on banking security—who is currently harmed and how can we help them?—would come up with something very different from blockchain!]

[...]

Micropayments and bank-to-bank transfers

[...]People have proposed that you will use bitcoins for micropayments — for example, paying two cents to a musician to listen to their song on the internet, or four cents to read a newspaper article. Yet the infrastructure to do this — for example, advance authorization with the source of funds so you don’t have to wait eight minutes to read the article you just clicked — actually eliminates the need for bitcoin at all. If you’re happy to pay four cents an article or two cents a song, you can set it up to bill once a month from your bank account and read to your heart’s content. [...]

In terms of interbank payments, many people mention Ripple as a promising way to transfer money between banks. [...] Why haven’t banks preferred this new technology? The answer is that setting up a Ripple Gateway isn’t actually much different than using the existing corresponding-account system — except that a lost password or security token can lead to much larger and more instant actual losses — which, as a reminder, has happened to more leading bitcoin exchanges than have managed to avoid it. The same features that make the banking system attractive to end users also make it attractive to banks. They already have ledgers, and don’t need to distribute them, anonymize them, encrypt them, publish them, and make them irreversible.

[...]
 
Of course, if anyone wants to speculate and take a chance to make some quick money, then go ahead. At the moment its still a free-for-all.

I'd say its rigged by its very nature though, and that the most central players will get away with the largest profits, and most of the small players will lose out.

But as of yet: go ahead and triple your money. Just never think that this is safe, stable or normal.
 
It's quite normal: the old system, the new system in the end there will be balance. and eternal joy. ;)
 
Now, I said trading in coins will be made illegal, and it seems that you read that as me arguing that it will become illegal to run certain types of code on networked computers. That is of course not what will happen. What will be made illegal will be to offer financial services to buy and sell coins. This can be done by simply banning banks and financial institutions from allowing transactions which are involved with coin trading. This will put an end to any coin exchanges which allow users to exchange hard currency for coins, and to later redeem coins for hard currency again. Some countries have already started to do this, but it will be the financial power of the US which will finally order Visa, Mastercard et al. to cease such trades. When that happens other governments will be able to stop their local financial institutions from doing it, and it will become very hard to get hard currency from coins.

One will still be able to mine as much as ones electricity bill will permit, of course. And you're free to exchange Bitcoins with Etherums with Dogecoins with whatever-coins you come up with. But there will no longer be any easy and large scale way of converting that to actual hard, useful money.

In conclusion, coins will not be permitted to interact with the economy at large once regulators and politicians come to realise that there is nothing worthwhile with them, and that they are useless, but dangerous economic bubbles. Coins are useless as a store of value and as a medium of exchange because they fluctuate too much. Even if they were to magically stabilise, they are useless as actual currencies because they are designed specifically to not be controlled easily, and will be unable to deflate and inflate to match the needs of the economy. At best they'll be a new gold standard, or a cartel controlled quasi gold standard, at worst they'll be completely unreliable and herald in a new economic depression.

You could have been more laconic - everybody will just pack their bags and go home. No more cryptocurrency. Signed: Cheetah

Nothing to disagree with, what can I say.
 
I suspect a crash is possible. Not because cryptocurrencies are a fad that is has been overvalued, rather, because eventually technology will likely emerge that will render them useless. Cryptocurrencies rely on their security for their worth and rarity. Quantum computing could easily bypass all that security. In fact, such development could render all digital money useless, including national currencies.
 
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