What can Firaxis learn?

While I'm pretty sure this was part of the reasoning when they made expensive units, but it also points to another design intention, both of which being a factor of what I'll call unit scale. Unit scale means how valuable a single unit is. If a single unit is cheap to train but weak, then that means the game's unit scale is pretty small. But if a single unit is costly and strong, then that means the game's unit scale is rather large. I'm pretty sure that Firaxis was aiming toward a large unit scale with expensive, strong units. When a game's unit scale is large, that means that a "full army" can be comprised of fewer units, resulting in both less map clutter as you mentioned, and less micromanagement. But because this attempt at a large unit scale was not reinforced by heavier maintenance costs, it instead pointed players toward the optimal strategy of maximizing production and printing out tons of units, creating a nightmarish micromanagement slog.

And @UWHabs, I think your idea of limiting an army's size primarily based on maintenance costs could work, but taking into account the problems that you mentioned and the fact that it would likely not dethrone Production as an all-important resource and just replace it with Gold... I think there are better options.

If we're sticking with 1UPT, then maybe what we need is to have some third system/resource to reduce unit clutter. Whether that be an existing mechanic or a new one entirely, I believe having unit clutter be restrained by three resources is the best idea. As it stands currently, it's a bit too easy (and even optimal) to overcome the small Production and Gold hurdles that are set in place to keep a reasonable limit on army size. This results in the best course of action being to train a horde of units that becomes a huge drag to manage as the game progresses.

To tie this to the thread's original question, I'd say that Firaxis can learn how to better limit army size and balance unit scale to create a more satisfying, less cluttered military experience.

You could make maintenance much more expensive, and have it scale depending on where a unit is and what it is doing

A unit fortified on an owned hex is minimal, where as the maintenance ramps up if you are in neutral turf, and more if it’s in enemy turf

If you go bankrupt and can’t pay the army doesnt disband, it rebels instead, becomes hostile and has “take my own capital” as it’s objective

if it succeeds you get three turns of anarchy

Look at that, a logical consequences based Dark Age mechanic not based on arbitrarty nonsense like “building a neighbourhood”
 
I've played one full game of Humankind, and am about to start a second. Lots of very good mechanics in that game, but also many mechanics that I really do not like at all. To me, HK suffers from the same issue that Civ VI suffered from -- the late game is a clickfest and doesn't have that same sense of urgency and tension that the first half does. I'm going to play at the HK difficulty level and see if that changes in the next game.

To answer the original question --- what can Firaxis learn? -- Short answer is A LOT. The internal systems of food, gold, science, civics seem to work well with each other (the religion one, not so much in my first play) -- each one can be exploited to drive the game forward effectively. The Civics also allow you to really tweak your civilization in a myriad of customized ways that will be change from game to game based on your game situation. The ability to attach outposts to cities, combine cities, etc., also allow for flexibility between tall and wide play in a very effective way. The ability for multiple cities to build wonders is also a welcome item. And AI personas that can be customized/downloaded is really a nice touch.

What I hope Firaxis doesn't try to do is mimic the way HK allows you to change your civilization throughout the eras. I like the -concept- of being able to change from a military focused to agrarian focus, etc. --- but I found that I am competing against the "yellow" or "purple" team vs. a bonafide civilization (English, Mongols, etc.) That was by far the most disappointing thing to me --- the fact that I feel like I am playing against soulless opponents described by color. Civ -- HANDS DOWN -- has this nailed. In any game of civilization since Civ I have I ever thought I was competing against the "red team".
 
With regards to the discussion of unit production cost:

I agree to some extent that high production cost is warranted by 1UPT, and I think developers explicitly said they intended units to be costly to motivate player not to throw them away carelessly (a design decision that REALLY does not help the AI).

But I don’t agree that it HAS to be that way. Civ6 has a number of - IMO. bad - design decisions that points toward few expensive units. 1UPT is one of them. Worse is that the extremely high city self-defence (and worse: Self attack) allows you to run a huge empire with literally zero standing army. If the city defence meta was shifted towards needing a garrisoned unit, we already would have a system that encourages building many more units than you do now without necessarily cluttering the map.

Secondly there’s the question of unit maintenance. Gold has been brought up, but I would like to throw in three different directions one could look in: Population, food and leadership. Population is the easiest: If building a unit subtracted a population from the city - very reasonable from a logical perspective IMO. - you’ll already have a strong deterrent to spamming units. And please no magical governor nonsense like Magnus “building a settler costs no population”. Secondly, food: Normal citizens require a food upkeep, why doesn’t soldiers? I know you can count this included in the gold maintenance, but if you want to spread things out so you can’t just spam gold buildings and then units, that would be a way. The way that could work is that instead of subtracting the citizen, the military unit is a “job” the citizen is locked to similar to how we assign citizens to work tiles or specialist slots. Finally, leadership: There is already a unit cap in the game (I think), but it never seems to come into play for whatever reasons (too high?). There is a mod that changes this which limits how many units an empire can control based on size. Not the most elegant control handle, but not unreasonable from a logical POV. Again, one way to merge this with the ideas above would be to simply make military units a sort of specialist, so each city centre maybe has one or two unit slots you can assign population to, and then defensive structures and military buildings (barracks, armoires, etc.) add additional slots.

Finally of course there is the question whether 1UPT shall remain like it is now. I agree Humankind system is not necessary without issues as well, so I don’t see any easy fixes, but it’s just to point out that we don’t have to consider current system a universal law.
 
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If I had to try to fix 1UPT while keeping 1UPT (and small maps), then I'll separate standing army units and conscripts units, and add 1 element requiring pre-production : equipment (swords, spears, tanks, aircraft, ...), stockpiled, used by both type of units, required for production and healing

standing army numbers would be very limited by your infrastructure and Empire size, would have a production cost but would gain experience, conscripts would be available next turn, but would be temporary units (for example only available during war time and/or for a limited number of turns), would draft population and would not gain experience.

standing army units could be put in "reserve" for a minimal number of turns to lower maintenance cost and could be redeployed anytime after the specified turn limit from any barracks/city/airport to help moving across maps
 
With regards to the discussion of unit production cost:

I agree to some extent that high production cost is warranted by 1UPT, and I think developers explicitly said they intended units to be costly to motivate player not to throw them away carelessly (a design decision that REALLY does not help the AI).

But I don’t agree that it HAS to be that way. Civ6 has a number of - IMO. bad - design decisions that points toward few expensive units. 1UPT is one of them. Worse is that the extremely high city self-defence (and worse: Self attack) allows you to run a huge empire with literally zero standing army. If the city defence meta was shifted towards needing a garrisoned unit, we already would have a system that encourages building many more units than you do now without necessarily cluttering the map.

Secondly there’s the question of unit maintenance. Gold has been brought up, but I would like to throw in three different directions one could look in: Population, food and leadership. Population is the easiest: If building a unit subtracted a population from the city - very reasonable from a logical perspective IMO. - you’ll already have a strong deterrent to spamming units. And please no magical governor nonsense like Magnus “building a settler costs no population”. Secondly, food: Normal citizens require a food upkeep, why doesn’t soldiers? I know you can count this included in the gold maintenance, but if you want to spread things out so you can’t just spam gold buildings and then units, that would be a way. The way that could work is that instead of subtracting the citizen, the military unit is a “job” the citizen is locked to similar to how we assign citizens to work tiles or specialist slots. Finally, leadership: There is already a unit cap in the game (I think), but it never seems to come into play for whatever reasons (too high?). There is a mod that changes this which limits how many units an empire can control based on size. Not the most elegant control handle, but not unreasonable from a logical POV. Again, one way to merge this with the ideas above would be to simply make military units a sort of specialist, so each city centre maybe has one or two unit slots you can assign population to, and then defensive structures and military buildings (barracks, armoires, etc.) add additional slots.

Finally of course there is the question whether 1UPT shall remain like it is now. I agree Humankind system is not necessary without issues as well, so I don’t see any easy fixes, but it’s just to point out that we don’t have to consider current system a universal law.

If I had to try to fix 1UPT while keeping 1UPT (and small maps), then I'll separate standing army units and conscripts units, and add 1 element requiring pre-production : equipment (swords, spears, tanks, aircraft, ...), stockpiled, used by both type of units, required for production and healing

standing army numbers would be very limited by your infrastructure and Empire size, would have a production cost but would gain experience, conscripts would be available next turn, but would be temporary units (for example only available during war time and/or for a limited number of turns), would draft population and would not gain experience.

standing army units could be put in "reserve" for a minimal number of turns to lower maintenance cost and could be redeployed anytime after the specified turn limit from any barracks/city/airport to help moving across maps

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting pieces that you can consider. If there's one thing just about everyone could agree on, it's that the next iteration needs some sort of change to units/combat. Where we all differ is in exactly how it should change.

And I mean, we've seen them listen somewhat and in civ 6's lifetime they did bring in a fairly major change in how resources accumulate and are used. To me, that has been a great change overall, although obviously it leads to its own problems. As pointed out, you can make rules more complex - if you have maintenance costs at 4x or 10x what they are now, but significantly reduce that for garrisoned units, maybe that helps. Or if units supply is more than simply gold, obviously that would have an issue too. I know it's been asked about before, but would be pretty awesome to have some sort of supply convoy system where you can't simply walk units across a desert and siege an enemy, you need to supply lines to keep them fed, and maybe those can be cut by enemies.

Of course, if you start doing that, and make units cheap, nobody wants to be sieging an enemy and then suddenly a couple new infantry units come out of the woodworks of the city you're attacking and destroy your invading army. 50gpt maintenance means nothing if I only need the unit for a couple turns to stop an attack and then can immediately disband them when the city isn't under siege anymore.

But yeah, hopefully Firaxis can learn from all of this, and from all the other similar games, and come up with some nice and balanced way to handle all of this, so that we can get much more realistic battles in the next iteration. It's still one of my biggest complaints right now - I have my army crossing the map, fighting a global fight, and that literally the best thing my population at home can be doing for the war effort are building libraries and marketplaces, because with them, then suddenly all my knights on the warfront turn into tanks.
 
Of course, if you start doing that, and make units cheap, nobody wants to be sieging an enemy and then suddenly a couple new infantry units come out of the woodworks of the city you're attacking and destroy your invading army. 50gpt maintenance means nothing if I only need the unit for a couple turns to stop an attack and then can immediately disband them when the city isn't under siege anymore.

But yeah, hopefully Firaxis can learn from all of this, and from all the other similar games, and come up with some nice and balanced way to handle all of this, so that we can get much more realistic battles in the next iteration. It's still one of my biggest complaints right now - I have my army crossing the map, fighting a global fight, and that literally the best thing my population at home can be doing for the war effort are building libraries and marketplaces, because with them, then suddenly all my knights on the warfront turn into tanks.
I agree with you, and it just illustrates how each part of the game design cannot be evaluated out of context. I guess the issues you describe with disbanding and rush-buying/drafting units could be, at least to some extent, be prevented by making unit promotions and training be an important part of the unit's combat strength. Also there could be limitations to what equipment you can give a new unit build in a city under siege, similar to what is described in Gedemon's post above.
 
You could make maintenance much more expensive, and have it scale depending on where a unit is and what it is doing

A unit fortified on an owned hex is minimal, where as the maintenance ramps up if you are in neutral turf, and more if it’s in enemy turf

Is already in Civ 4. Nothing to learn there but to learn to not get rid of good ideas.

What I hope Firaxis doesn't try to do is mimic the way HK allows you to change your civilization throughout the eras. I like the -concept- of being able to change from a military focused to agrarian focus, etc. --- but I found that I am competing against the "yellow" or "purple" team vs. a bonafide civilization (English, Mongols, etc.) That was by far the most disappointing thing to me --- the fact that I feel like I am playing against soulless opponents described by color. Civ -- HANDS DOWN -- has this nailed. In any game of civilization since Civ I have I ever thought I was competing against the "red team".

You are not competing with colors, you are competing with different LEADERS. It's just a change in paradigm that requires a little change of mindset. Leaders in HK truly behave differently, make different choices and react differently according to their traits and preferences, and the combinations are large. You just need to learn the different personalities and how they will possibly behave. Much better than the immensely stupid agendas. I can understand that we got used to seeing a "civilization" from 4000 BC into the 21st century, no matter if it is lead by Abraham Lincoln :crazyeye: , this is just another view, and IMO closer to reality, but not crazier than Abe in the 4000 BCs...
 
Is already in Civ 4. Nothing to learn there but to learn to not get rid of good ideas.



You are not competing with colors, you are competing with different LEADERS. It's just a change in paradigm that requires a little change of mindset. Leaders in HK truly behave differently, make different choices and react differently according to their traits and preferences, and the combinations are large. You just need to learn the different personalities and how they will possibly behave. Much better than the immensely stupid agendas. I can understand that we got used to seeing a "civilization" from 4000 BC into the 21st century, no matter if it is lead by Abraham Lincoln :crazyeye: , this is just another view, and IMO closer to reality, but not crazier than Abe in the 4000 BCs...

I love how most discussions of how to improve Civ6 seem to end in “just play Civ4”
 
Civ4 has much less maintenance per unit than Civ6. Granted you also have way more units. You are going a bit overboard with your argument.
 
I love how most discussions of how to improve Civ6 seem to end in “just play Civ4”

Maybe because Civ 4 is an improved version of Civ 6? :D

Civ4 has much less maintenance per unit than Civ6. Granted you also have way more units. You are going a bit overboard with your argument.

I was responding to a suggestion to have maintenance costs increased when units are out of home territory, and especially when campaigning on enemy territory. Civ 4 had those, and even called the extra maintenance Supply cost. You are going a bit off board with your response. ;)
 
Yeah, it did. But those costs are not that high. You pay 1 gold per turn for every 2 units outside your territory. That's definitely relevant and makes war more costly but it's hardly a significant deterrent.
 
But at least it had the idea and conceptually, with the right motivation: making wars costlier than peace, and pushing the player to prepare their economy for a full fledged invasion.

Civ 6 has costlier maintenance per unit because that is Firaxis' idea of a brilliant solution to the Carpet of Doom that they created with 1UPT. Very different "motivation".
 
War in Civ4 is difficult because the defender has an enormous advantage. You also ussually need to use slavery and drafting liberally to make a sufficiently strong army. Lastly, there is war weariness. These together make wars quite costly.

I'm not quite sure how this balance works out in Civ6. Land wars seem to be hard if terrain is cramped. Maybe not if there is a long border to spread out units. Ships (frigates, caravels and better) seem to be hard to stop because they always have space to maneuver.
 
But at least it had the idea and conceptually, with the right motivation: making wars costlier than peace, and pushing the player to prepare their economy for a full fledged invasion.

Civ 6 has costlier maintenance per unit because that is Firaxis' idea of a brilliant solution to the Carpet of Doom that they created with 1UPT. Very different "motivation".

And low move allowance
And no “partial” moves

So you have to solve a sliding tile puzzle every time you move you units

Also you have a bunch of units with fractional movement points left that you have to manually end turn on

Seriously, like did nobody put five minutes of thought into this?
 
Yeah... migrating... the question is not whether Firaxis can learn or not and what, but whether one can learn even if Firaxis doesn't... and man I learned. And migrated, to Endless new pastures... ;)
 
Migrating?
You are in a philosophical cul-de-sac. People tend to like playing the best version of each incarnation. So you have probably now
civ4 & Warlords & Beyond the Sword & BBAI (Better Beyond the sword AI)
civ5 & Gods'n'Kings & Brave New World & VOX POPULI
civ6 (vanilla)

Looking back I feel, they told from the beginning of NFP the number (6) and release dates of free patches (last in April'21) in order to have it clear all the time and for all times, that there was and is NO reason to expect anything more (patches etc.) ...


But anyway, comparing now civ4, civ6 and OldWorld, for me the latter two are siblings; looking into the details both show they are true sequels of civ4. And most important: they overlap, but also complement each other.
So in the long run for all the players it may be not very helpful to ask in one game for attributes (eg. completely rounded design of mechanics, flawlessness of the end product, forum communication, dozens of animated 3D leaders) found in the other game (providing which the company isn't learning anyway).

 
IN reply to:

"I mean by Civ6 Mechanics WW2 would have been Germany’s panzers curb stomping the French Army, but unable to hold Paris because of…baguettes and wine? Go ahead, rationalize this nonsense, I double dog dare you.

What should happen: when you take another civ’s city, it retains its original ethnic identity, but you get control of its output (perhaps at a lower rate of efficiency). Depending on the size of the city you need to maintain at least a certain number of military units in it as a garrison or it rebels, generating that number of military units and rejoining it’s founding civ."

——

Yes: if you take over another civ's city, it should be expensive to maintain it, and prohibitively expensive to maintain more than a few. The angry citizens shouldn't be able to suddenly evict a powerful army - they already lost the military battle, after all. If occupied cities are expensive to keep, and if one civ tries to conquer too many cities too quickly, the conquering country will go bankrupt, and its science/culture/diplomacy should tank. But it should be possible for one civ to swallow another, if played skillfully. It's a game after all.

Civ 4's method for expansion worked perfectly: developed cities generated profits, but new cities were costly to support. That system prevented ICS and early settler-based expansion; it could do the same for imperial conquest.
 
Historically, which should be the First Argument for changing something that doesn't seem to work in-game (after all, several dozens of millions of people working with the problem for centuries are more likely to come up with 'solutions' than a single game designer or even a group of game designers, no matter how brilliant they think they are - or how much input they get from a few dozen Fanatics) here's what Limited Units , Armies, and onquests.

Early Game (pre-Industrial)
Armies were limited by the Upkeep - the 'Maintenance Costs", because governments simply did not have the administrative structure to extract large amounts of Gold/Cash from their population and apply it to supplying armies - and the technical means of supply were limited. Effectively, no large body of people and animals could be supplied away from a coast or river, so most armies ended up 'living off the land' - and starving to some degree.

Raising Units was limited by the cost in People. Armies required, generally, young men in good physical condition, precisely the prime workforce for everything else in fhe Civ: take too many of them away to drag a spear, and everything else suffered. That meant, while Civs like Egypt and China could (and did) 'conscript' an army or workforce in the 100,000s, they could not keep them away from More Useful Things for very long. A Professional, permanent army, on the other hand, required an even greater numer of people working to support them, or they were limited to that part of the population (Warrior Class, militant Aristocracy, comitatus, etc) that could support themselves while they went away to fight. A large percentage of the population doing that resulted in an extremely 'skewed' society - see classical Sparta, in which every adult male Spartan was a professional warrior, but it required a large slave (Helot) workforce that the adult male Spartans spent most of their time watching closely, with no time left over for things like art, trade or culture of any kind.

Conquering Others was limited both by the above problems of raising and maintaining armies away from home, but also by the fact that there were very few mechanisms - social, cultural, civic - for integrating Others into your own Civ. Persia, Rome, China managed it, but the Chinese in fact took centuries to integrate non-Chinese cultures like Northern Barbarian pastorals (in fact, they are still working at it a thousand or more years later with the Uighers). That meant, with those exceptions, Empires tended to be ephemeral: they rose and fell, came and went within generations or years, not centuries - Mayflies in the game's timescale.

Late game (Industrial and later)
Armies are limited by population. Since States can draft or conscript virtually anyone, the problem is that taking workers and farmers out of industry and the civil economy cripples all support and supply for the army you formed. Germany in WWII had a Manpower Crisis as early as 1940, because they had stripped out too many men into the army and their industrial output was falling for lack of workers. They 'solved' the problem by using slave labor, a solution that was ridiculously inefficient (1/3 the productivity per worker on average) and added to the implacable nature of their enemies - and got several prominent Germans hanged after tthey lost the war. A small extremely skilled army can offset this by keeping most of the population working while the 'professionals' do the fighting, but that only works for Short Wars: no professional force stays professional in a long war, because wartime casualties cannot be replaced with equally skilled and trained men, so the Quality inevitably declines. Historical examples are the German Army in WWII, and also Napoleon's armies from 1805 to 1815 and the British Army 1914 - 1918, which started out extremely Professional and ended up almost completely Amateur due to extreme casualty rates.

Units are limited by Expense of both raising and equipping and maintaining the equipment. Modern weapons are not only relatively expensive and complex to produce (requiring, among other things, massive quantities of Resources and major Industrial Plant to manufacture) but they also require continuous streams of ammunition, fuel, spare parts, etc to keep fighting, and all the infrastructure of supply, transportation, repair facilities, etc. On average, a modern combat force has 3 - 10 people 'behind the lines' supporting for every man up front fighting.

Conquering Others is now limited by Ingrained Culture. Andalusians to Zulus, Chinese, French, Germans all Identify keenly with their own, and will not willingly change in less than generations or centuries, if at all. That means, while you can conquer an area and its people, keeping that area and those people requires constant Maintenance in the form of civil and military administration and occupation - all of it drained from your Civ. Again, using WWII as an example (because I've written books on the subject so I'll stay with what I know) in 1941 the German military massed about 150 divisions to attack the Soviet Union, but had to leave another 60 divisions out of the campaign to hold down their conquests in the rest of Europe - in addition to large numbers of 'nonmilitary' occupation forces like police, SS, Gestapo, and civil administrators. And despite in some cases 6 years or more of occupation, at the end of the war the conquered and occupied people in Scandinavia, Poland, Austria, Slovakia, Belgium, France, etc in no way identified themselves as German - quite the opposite. After over 300 years, the Scots are neither English or "Great British", but distinctly Scots and increasingly restive about being associated with the other two. This is fairly typical World Wide.

So basically, Initial Cost in Gold and Population, Maintenance Cost in Gold, Manufactures and Population are the constraints on Military Units, armies, conquest throughout the game, but the importance and emphasis of individual effects changes from start to finish. And a lot of the changes are in the techniques and mechanics available to the Civ: the ability to 'mobilize' Gold, people, and manufacturing for the Leader's purposes is different and changes massively as the game progresses - or should, in a well-designed Game.
 
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