What can Firaxis learn?

And low move allowance
And no “partial” moves

So you have to solve a sliding tile puzzle every time you move you units
Also you have a bunch of units with fractional movement points left that you have to manually end turn on
Seriously, like did nobody put five minutes of thought into this?
Could easily have made it way less annoying if they wanted. Like, if a unit can't move with the remaining move points (surrounded by hills or whatever) then auto end the turn instead of forcing you to do it manually. But the devs clearly never play the game so what can you expect.
 
My guess is Civ7 will just be an improvement/refinement of Civ6. The formula works and it is what consumers want, plus they have no competition, so why mess with a winning formula?

There is a reason why all James Bond films since Goldfinger have just been variations on the same story.
 
My guess is Civ7 will just be an improvement/refinement of Civ6.
Civ6 is filled to the brim with good ideas poorly implemented. If they can take Civ6's ideas and make them into a coherent system, with a few innovations, I think that would make a good game.
 
My guess is Civ7 will just be an improvement/refinement of Civ6. The formula works and it is what consumers want, plus they have no competition, so why mess with a winning formula?

There is a reason why all James Bond films since Goldfinger have just been variations on the same story.
especially Humankind seems to be losing the competition BADLY

Moderator Action: This thread is about what Firaxis can learn, not how well Humankind is doing. Please stay on topic. leif
 
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My guess is Civ7 will just be an improvement/refinement of Civ6. The formula works and it is what consumers want, plus they have no competition, so why mess with a winning formula?

There is a reason why all James Bond films since Goldfinger have just been variations on the same story.
sadly true, but one can hope they love the franchise enough to take the risk to improve the formula.
 
Civ6 is filled to the brim with good ideas poorly implemented. If they can take Civ6's ideas and make them into a coherent system, with a few innovations, I think that would make a good game.
I agree, personally I would be perfectly satisfied with a Civ7 that leaned heavily on Civ6 and Civ5 but actively tried to improve on the features that didn’t work optimally - modular game elements, combat system, district and building yields, policy cards and governments, and victory system (particularly religious victory), to highlight a few - and taking inspiration from sources like other games (Humankind, Old World) and mods (City Lights, Terra Mirabillis, …) and also trying to make the AI handle the game elements.

I see a lot of negativity towards Firaxis and Civ6 by certain posters in this thread, but imo. that’s neither fully warranted or a constructive approach - yes there were flaws in Civ6 that probably could and should have been avoided, but bringing many new elements to the table always means you need to tune things to get it right, which is why I hope they don’t throw everything up in the air again.
 
I agree, personally I would be perfectly satisfied with a Civ7 that leaned heavily on Civ6 and Civ5 but actively tried to improve on the features that didn’t work optimally - modular game elements, combat system, district and building yields, policy cards and governments, and victory system (particularly religious victory), to highlight a few - and taking inspiration from sources like other games (Humankind, Old World) and mods (City Lights, Terra Mirabillis, …) and also trying to make the AI handle the game elements.

I see a lot of negativity towards Firaxis and Civ6 by certain posters in this thread, but imo. that’s neither fully warranted or a constructive approach - yes there were flaws in Civ6 that probably could and should have been avoided, but bringing many new elements to the table always means you need to tune things to get it right, which is why I hope they don’t throw everything up in the air again.

The old saw is a new game should have 1/3 Old, 1/3 New, and 1/3 Revised, I believe.

Let's see if we can start a sort of constructive discussion (although I suspect at the basic level Civ VII is far past this by now) on how those could break down for the Next Game (Probably Civ 7, but if they name it Civ 6.5 I would not regard that as a Positive Sign).

Old:
1. Animated and Voice-Acted interactions. Now in the past that has been Leader Personalities, and I strongly suspect they will stay with that, but I would love to see some Non-Leaders recognized as such, given the animation/voice treatment and included - the place for folks like Richelieu, Thomas Cromwell, Jeanne d'Arc - even Rasputin and Trotskii for complete Outliers.

2. Most or All Civs available from Start of Game to End of Game. Humankind has taken an entirely different path with their progressive Era-Civs, but it has not gotten universally positive reactions from players, and I really doubt that Civ will go anywhere near it.

3. Commentary. They've used Tech and other comments for several games now, it's a safe bet they will continue that. Since as many people like them as loathe them, I don't think there's a great need for change, but hopefully they will pay more attention to proper pronunciations and less to having a 'name' do the commenting.

New:
1. A Tactical Battle System. ALL Civ games have always done all combat on the Strategic Game map, either by 1UPT or Stacks. I think they will finally break away from that, BUT I am equally certain they will not 'copy' some other game's system: there are flaws in all of them and I think they can do better if they put in the effort, and I think a really good, smooth, tactically-complex but not time-consuming system would be one of the best single additions to the game.

2. A Real "Rise and Fall' system. They've skirted and poked at one for several games now, and never gotten it right or made it particularly important. Something that does not produce Rage Quits but does produce major changes in the Civ (which would address the idea of a 'new Civ' later in the game without modifying the basic One Civ Per Game playstyle) which the gamer has to address would be another Major Change and plus for the game system, IMHO.

3. Interaction with the In-Game Events. Again, they've skirted this in the past, with the Recently-added-by-Mod-to-Civ VI upgradable throne rooms and palaces and similar, but never really gone 'all in' with it. Having ancient Wonders become the basis for later Tourism Centers, a running Chronicle of gamer/AI achievements in the game, the ability to chage things on the map to reflect the Greatness of the specific Player-Character (why can't we set up a Monument to Ourselves? Almost every one of the Leader Characters they are depicting for us did it. This would also build on Civ's distinctive Personalized Characters in the game, which they are almost alone in the 4X genre in having the resources to do them complete with animation, voice acting - and on-map, in-game interactions, constructions, etc.

Revised:
1. The Trade System. I put this first mostly because I've posted at length on this before: the game now has two trade systems, one for Resources done entirely by diplomacy and ignoring all the rules of travel tech and distance and one for on-map Trade Routes that is severely restricted by technology, distance and Enemy Action. At the very least, the new game needs One Trade Route/Trade System with one set of rules, covering everything about Trade, including the diplomatic requirements and (another bit I would personally love to see) Illegal Trade, smuggling, etc.

2. Units. Including Promotions, Upgrades, Tech, Civic, and Social Policy requirements. Again, they've
'dipped a toe' in some of this with the GDR's Technical Upgrades and having a few Units with Civic requirements in Civ VI, but they need to go All In. Armies should reflect their society/state, and this would be a major change from previous Civs, but could be done by building on the 'bits' they've already tried.

3. Tech, Civic, Social Policy 'Trees'. Keeping Tech and Civics separate will stay, I think, but the interaction between the two and the Social System your Civ builds and maintains need some serious revision. More consequences for changing, and consequences in more areas of religion, diplomacy, even Technical/Scientific progress and Loyalty/Happiness within your Civ. I think the 'Tech Tree' is long overdue for a revision into something resembling BE's "Tech Bush" but much, much better done, or even SMAC's semi-blind Tech Progress, but the point is there are lots of ways to improve these systems and I would be extremely surprised not to see major revisions in them.
 
I really, really, really would NOT like any sort of tactical battle system. I don't want to spend even more time on combat.
100%. I'm not here to play a wargame.
 
It seems so obvious to me that most units should lose a bit of strength - maybe a lot, like 33% - each turn they are away from home. Maybe scouts could lose half as much as a normal unit. This penalty would slowly go away as technology and government improves.

Keeping the units close would prolong the fun initial exploration part of the game; prevent weirdness like a galley from circumnavigating the world in 3000 BCE; and keep things focused on the player's immediate surroundings, as ancient societies actually did. Supply lines are very important things in real life, but they play no role in any civ game that I can recall. Also, it's senseless for China to be fighting Persia or Rome in 2500 BC.
 
You will never see a Civ game from Fireaxis with the majority of civs and/or modes available from the start because those are prime monetization fodder for DLC/Season passes

I agree, personally I would be perfectly satisfied with a Civ7 that leaned heavily on Civ6 and Civ5 but actively tried to improve on the features that didn’t work optimally - modular game elements, combat system, district and building yields, policy cards and governments, and victory system (particularly religious victory), to highlight a few - and taking inspiration from sources like other games (Humankind, Old World) and mods (City Lights, Terra Mirabillis, …) and also trying to make the AI handle the game elements.

I see a lot of negativity towards Firaxis and Civ6 by certain posters in this thread, but imo. that’s neither fully warranted or a constructive approach - yes there were flaws in Civ6 that probably could and should have been avoided, but bringing many new elements to the table always means you need to tune things to get it right, which is why I hope they don’t throw everything up in the air again.

My two big issues with Civ6 that I need to see fixed before I’ll even consider Civ7:

(1). Terrible QA. The Luxury Bug in a game mode based on Luxuries is just…I have no words. This is not an isolated incident either.

(2). Passive Pinata AI that can’t do anything

I mean the rest of it, districts vs city centres or builders vs workers or stacks vs 1 UPT kind of becomes irrelevant if the AI can’t compete and the game itself has massive bugs.

If the core gameplay works, the rest is icing on the cake.

Civ6 did work at one point, like you fought actual wars and stuff. I don’t know what happened.
 
One thing I think Civ 6 did better than previous titles was gradual attitude changing. When you do something that generates a big red negative modifier with another civ, they don't just instantly hate your guts. It gradually deteriorates their opinion of you over time, so there's still a chance to right the wrong before your relationship sours.
 
I really, really, really would NOT like any sort of tactical battle system. I don't want to spend even more time on combat.

I agree. fighting individual battles all the time is Micromanagement at Civ's time scale.

On the other hand, taking 200 years to resolve a battle involving a single Barbarian Warrior/Spearman in the Ancient Era is, I don't know, Macro-Silliness at any scale of game. Archers that can shoot from one side of a 100,000 population city to the other seems to assume a ground scale composed entirely of Rubber.

Which is why I specifically said that I do not think they will copy some other system. There are a lot of ways in which 'battles' (or even Wars) could be played out in a turn instead of a century or decade without requiring the gamer to slog through a Mini-Game - unless the gamer wants to.

But I do not think the current system of units spread all over a Strategic Map and acting like they are individual combat elements when they are covering tens of hundred of square kilometers and years of time makes any sense at all. The problem is that people like to push them little individual digital Spearmen, Riflemen, Tanks around the map, so I don't they can get away with something like a single "Army" unit that abstracts all the individualism but completes the war/battle in a reasonable time, at a reasonable ground scale.
For one thing, such abstraction would run counter to Civ's focus in design, which individualizes Leaders, Governors, Great People, etc as much as possible.

But that, I think, is going to require some Innovative Design to retain the individual Units of all kinds and make them move and fight in some reasonable battlefield time and ground scale in the game.

I could imagine, for instance, a system where yourarmy consists of a stack of individual Units, moving with constraints from Supply, Terrain, and Leadership (Great General, Civ Leader as Commander, etc) but when it moves into a tile with an enemy stack, you are simply presented with an abstract 'battle situation' (The Enemy is Entrenched, You Surprised Them, etc), given a few decisions to make (flank attack, stubborn defense, Hi-Diddle-Diddle Straight Up The Middle, etc) and the whole thing is resolved by the computer and results presented in the same turn - which would not normally include annihilation of your force, or no serious gamer would ever risk an in-game battle.
 
I agree. fighting individual battles all the time is Micromanagement at Civ's time scale.

On the other hand, taking 200 years to resolve a battle involving a single Barbarian Warrior/Spearman in the Ancient Era is, I don't know, Macro-Silliness at any scale of game. Archers that can shoot from one side of a 100,000 population city to the other seems to assume a ground scale composed entirely of Rubber.

Which is why I specifically said that I do not think they will copy some other system. There are a lot of ways in which 'battles' (or even Wars) could be played out in a turn instead of a century or decade without requiring the gamer to slog through a Mini-Game - unless the gamer wants to.

But I do not think the current system of units spread all over a Strategic Map and acting like they are individual combat elements when they are covering tens of hundred of square kilometers and years of time makes any sense at all. The problem is that people like to push them little individual digital Spearmen, Riflemen, Tanks around the map, so I don't they can get away with something like a single "Army" unit that abstracts all the individualism but completes the war/battle in a reasonable time, at a reasonable ground scale.
For one thing, such abstraction would run counter to Civ's focus in design, which individualizes Leaders, Governors, Great People, etc as much as possible.

But that, I think, is going to require some Innovative Design to retain the individual Units of all kinds and make them move and fight in some reasonable battlefield time and ground scale in the game.

I could imagine, for instance, a system where yourarmy consists of a stack of individual Units, moving with constraints from Supply, Terrain, and Leadership (Great General, Civ Leader as Commander, etc) but when it moves into a tile with an enemy stack, you are simply presented with an abstract 'battle situation' (The Enemy is Entrenched, You Surprised Them, etc), given a few decisions to make (flank attack, stubborn defense, Hi-Diddle-Diddle Straight Up The Middle, etc) and the whole thing is resolved by the computer and results presented in the same turn - which would not normally include annihilation of your force, or no serious gamer would ever risk an in-game battle.

A certain level of abstraction is unavoidable in games like these to keep them actually playable and manageable

That being said actual warfare never looks like a 1 UPT carpet of doom outside of a few very special times and places in history.

It tends to be stacks moving around each other trying to force a battle on favorable terms within the constraints of supply. This is both more interesting and easier for an AI to work with

Have a variable stacking limit that is a function of terrain, technology, whether you are in a friendly/enemy/neutral terf etc. Simple and easy to implement
 
I agree. fighting individual battles all the time is Micromanagement at Civ's time scale.

On the other hand, taking 200 years to resolve a battle involving a single Barbarian Warrior/Spearman in the Ancient Era is, I don't know, Macro-Silliness at any scale of game. Archers that can shoot from one side of a 100,000 population city to the other seems to assume a ground scale composed entirely of Rubber.

Which is why I specifically said that I do not think they will copy some other system. There are a lot of ways in which 'battles' (or even Wars) could be played out in a turn instead of a century or decade without requiring the gamer to slog through a Mini-Game - unless the gamer wants to.

But I do not think the current system of units spread all over a Strategic Map and acting like they are individual combat elements when they are covering tens of hundred of square kilometers and years of time makes any sense at all. The problem is that people like to push them little individual digital Spearmen, Riflemen, Tanks around the map, so I don't they can get away with something like a single "Army" unit that abstracts all the individualism but completes the war/battle in a reasonable time, at a reasonable ground scale.
For one thing, such abstraction would run counter to Civ's focus in design, which individualizes Leaders, Governors, Great People, etc as much as possible.

But that, I think, is going to require some Innovative Design to retain the individual Units of all kinds and make them move and fight in some reasonable battlefield time and ground scale in the game.

I could imagine, for instance, a system where yourarmy consists of a stack of individual Units, moving with constraints from Supply, Terrain, and Leadership (Great General, Civ Leader as Commander, etc) but when it moves into a tile with an enemy stack, you are simply presented with an abstract 'battle situation' (The Enemy is Entrenched, You Surprised Them, etc), given a few decisions to make (flank attack, stubborn defense, Hi-Diddle-Diddle Straight Up The Middle, etc) and the whole thing is resolved by the computer and results presented in the same turn - which would not normally include annihilation of your force, or no serious gamer would ever risk an in-game battle.

The more iterations of Civilization I play the more I feel Civ I's binary of win or loss, life or death, was the best approach to combat results. Sure sometimes you got enraging results like when a veteran battleship is killed when bombarding a settler unit (*ahem*), but that's ultimately details. I've come to appreciate that system more because of how it rewards strategic-level thinking regarding production and defense in depth rather than tactical control. It's also quite decisive, which can make for faster play in the late game.
 
The more iterations of Civilization I play the more I feel Civ I's binary of win or loss, life or death, was the best approach to combat results. Sure sometimes you got enraging results like when a veteran battleship is killed when bombarding a settler unit (*ahem*), but that's ultimately details. I've come to appreciate that system more because of how it rewards strategic-level thinking regarding production and defense in depth rather than tactical control. It's also quite decisive, which can make for faster play in the late game.
Both Civ 2 and Civ 3 had binary results. In Civ3 (one of my favorites), your victorious unit might be heavily damaged, but the other unit was dead.
 
Both Civ 2 and Civ 3 had binary results. In Civ3 (one of my favorites), your victorious unit might be heavily damaged, but the other unit was dead.

Civ2 had the “if the top defender dies, the whole stack dies” mechanic which perfectly balanced the doom stack problem
 
A certain level of abstraction is unavoidable in games like these to keep them actually playable and manageable

That being said actual warfare never looks like a 1 UPT carpet of doom outside of a few very special times and places in history.

It tends to be stacks moving around each other trying to force a battle on favorable terms within the constraints of supply. This is both more interesting and easier for an AI to work with

Have a variable stacking limit that is a function of terrain, technology, whether you are in a friendly/enemy/neutral terf etc. Simple and easy to implement

Technically, moving stacks into contact with an enemy stack is Operational Warfare, putting the Units into stacks and putting the stacks where they will do you the most good once they start moving is Strategic Warfare, and the game really shouldn't get into Tactics (attacking, defending, moving Units once they've made contact with an enemy unit/stack) given the other scale of activities in the game.

The problem, as I posted above, is that gamers like to fiddle with the individual, animated Units, so anything that abstracts the individual Unit activities in warfare will have to present some kind of alternative. It could be strictly display - some kind of "battle animation" that reflects what the game is abstracting. without requiring the Immortal God-King (the gamer) to make any of it happen.

Ironically, the game already does a fair job of showing basic Strategy (Forming 'armies' and moving them around the world), and Operations, since it can also appear on the Strategic (game) Map shouldn't be that hard - as you said, variable stacking limit, possibly some movement restrictions based on Size of Stack, terrain and technology (state of supply abstracted?). Tactics is where it gets complex, but it is also where all the various Unit differentiations (Anti-Cav, Melee, Ranged, specific weapons types and characteristics, etc., etc.) are relevant, so leaving it all out also leaves out a lot of what makes Units intriguing to the gaming audience.

I never thought it would be easy, but I also think it needs doing: right now, the game tries to do Tactics on a Strategic Scale and leaves Operations out of the mix entirely, so the result is simply a grossly out of scale process in both primary dimensions: ground scale and time scale both are distorted ridiculously.
 
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