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What Changes Should the New Civs get in the Fall Patch?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by kwidem, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    That's one of my pet peeves. There are lots of instances of game text that don't do what they say. (I used to work for a CCG company, and writing unambiguous game text to fit on a playing card is a challenge but is a skill that can be learned. Not doing it is just sloppy design and makes it harder to play/understand the game.)

    Stuff like "Double movement in forest" drives me nuts. The actual functionality is clearly not double (x2) when you see it in practice. Especially when you combine it with things like Kilimanjaro, the discrepancy is pretty obvious.
     
  2. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    Wodan, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Civ V is abysmally bad when it comes to documentation. Even the online reference manual, Civilopedia, is terrible.
     
  3. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    "Impossible to play"?

    Pure hyberbole.

    You don't have to wait for them. By all means, avail yourself of them when you can, but waiting until the industrial era to start scrapping is no way to dominate.

    What theyr eally need to do is come up with a different formula for a domination victory, where capturing capitals is just a component (even if it's the srongest component).

    Why don't people complain that the Huns have a terrible, weak UA? That' it lacks a focus on anything besides domination? That's a rhetorical question, mind you. The anser is for others to consider.
     
  4. regalman

    regalman Reckless Dolphin

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    the national wonders and palace of the other civ doesnt disappear, considering they might have great works we need and that is why I attack them only to found out the painting was in the palace!!
     
  5. Tinker

    Tinker Prince

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    Oh, and I wouldn't mind a small tweak to the Netherlands - they're mostly fine, but it would be cool if the luxuries you "traded away" still counted towards the gold gained from trade routes.
     
  6. RoadReaction

    RoadReaction Chieftain

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    My take on Germany and Japan:

    Germany

    Furor Teutonicus is fine as it is, it's actually a really good ability esp with the honor tree as it allows you to farm barbarian camps to become wealthy or build an army, it gets even better when you change the game speed to epic or marathon.

    Landsknecht are actually good good as they counter mounted units (100% bonus v.s 50% bonus) , and are cheaper than the pikeman that they replace (45 production v.s 90 production).

    The Panzer has an additional 10 combat strength as well as an additional movement, also fine as is.
    So the real question is how can we make this civilization any better? What i'd also suggest is Furor Teutonicus giving an additional bonus v.s barbarians like 25%

    Japan

    I know there are alot of people that think bushido is subpar but i've always had good luck with the ability and think it's one of the stronger UA's in the game when fighting another domination civ. Samauri on the other hand are really subpar . As it stands the promotions they get are nice but i think they should just be given a unique ability where they deal double damage while counter attacking (I.E being enganged by another melee unit while fortified) This will represent the counterattack style of the katana.

    The Zero doesnt work very well with this civ as it comes so much later than their first UU, I'd honestly just remove the damned thing and replace it with a unique UU called a ninja that has 2 tile range stealth against military units and only unstealths when attacking a civlian unit. I'd have them appear like merchants of venice for Venice. This unit would have unique promotions that would improve stealth and later allow it to sneak attack military units.

    This change alone would make Japan a better and more unique civilization.
     
  7. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    Except the only part that's true is the production bonus. Landsknecht is just a cheap pikeman, nothing more.
     
  8. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    Luxury trade and the resource diversity bonus for trade routes are unrelated. You will get a bonus to your trade route if you have a resource in the cultural sphere of your city that the other city doesn't have, it doesn't matter if you have traded it away or not.
     
  9. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    One change that I was thinking for the fall patch is the trade route plunder gold that players that plunder a trade route get is a lot. Reducing the gold pay off for plundering enemy trade routes by a half or by any percentage I guess will be fair because by the end of the later eras, most players end up with gold spam and then take the world Congress to spam other spam proposals.
     
  10. evilcat

    evilcat Warlord

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    1. Nerf warmongering penalty, so at least it will fade a little bit sooner, and was not so prohibite for early wars.

    2. Buff to civs which are currently luck dependand, or have not so impresive perks. Most often one which end with double UU. List: Byzantine, Indonesia, German, Japan, Russia, Spain.

    3. Some tweaks to policies. Giving more reason to go for any of this, also correcting timing, sometimes placing some policy too late make it useless. To loo at list: Honor, Piety, Exploration, Autocracy.
     
  11. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    First, all musicians spawn as Rammstein.

    Second, I'd like to see a Civ have a strategy based around manufactories. Something like +50% to great engineer production and manufactories also give +2 science. Germany would be a good fit.
     
  12. Antarion

    Antarion Prince

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    landsknechts are great if u know how to swarm the enemy with mass units, if u dont know why they suck ofc. i had enough discussions about this topic like 3 years ago, plz not the same discussion again. :confused:
     
  13. Arkangelus

    Arkangelus Prince

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    I see a lot of people saying that Denmark suck, but their move-after-disembarking skill is totally unique and I believe they have the only twin UUs in the game that upgrade into each other. It could be debated how strong they are overall yes, but they do most definitely have a unique niche - and the unique embarkation graphic is pretty fun for flavour too.
     
  14. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs Emperor

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    3 years ago you could also get to Civil Service much quicker and rush it with the Great Library :cool:
     
  15. ToodleElNoodos

    ToodleElNoodos Warlord

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    I wouldn't mind them buffing Indonesia with a 4th resource that you get automatically when you settle your first city. At least it's always active.

    Netherlands, noticed this.

    Say you only have 1 Copper and 1 Gold, overall, you have +8:c5happy:. You trade Copper for Citrus and Gold for Gems. This gives you +12:c5happy:. So far, its worked well for me since by the time I hit Polders and start doing the Dutch boom, you have a strong amount of friends you can make fair deals with. The mechanics changes have made them much more diplomatic.

    It's also great with the Commerce SP as trading away your last copy for 1 other luxury resource doubles the happiness.

    This is only on Prince difficulty, so I don't know if this is significant.
     
  16. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    America - I feel like this one could do with some shifts, certainly, though the +1 sight is a nice, solid, understandable bonus. I kinda want something a little more punchy and unique, like, "Gain three times the free tenets for early Ideology adoption" would be pleasant and maybe represent how they practically adopted Freedom in the late Renaissance era. It would encourage you to industrialize and/or modernize fast, which would also fit pleasantly. Of course, there's plenty of other options, like boosts from railroads, or as others have suggested, bonuses from liberating cities. Minutemen could maybe be buffed, and...egh, I don't know what to do about the B52.

    Arabia - Already changed, needs little else. Camel Archer has always been kickass, Bazaar has always been super broken, UA is now not super crazy and more sensible but unique regardless.

    Aztecs - Needs no change, IMO. I really like the UA because of how simply and elegantly it encompasses the civ, both the obvious of how sacrifice through battle was an important part of their culture, and simulating the "flower wars" fought not for land, but for ceremonial purposes. It's a fun thing that encourages warmongering without conquest, making an enemy of the world so they can send billions of units to you while you strategically kill as many as possible. Jaguars are still really great, and pumping them out early on nets you crazy awesome infantry, and Floating Gardens is powerful as always.

    China - PLEASE PLEASE change this, I just...REALLY don't like it. Powerful? Sure. Boring? VERY. It's the most bland warmongering ability, and does China no justice whatsoever. A major center of civilization and one of the most powerful nations in the world today, and we get...more great generals...yay? I want something that represents their historical technological innovation. A simple, powerful thing I thought of was this: Technologies require only one prerequisite to research. It makes beelining desirable techs an effective strategy, and offers a lot of flexibility and powerful options, especially in espionage. The Paper Maker should make resource diversity in trade routes provide science for both parties involved, as China was the endpoint in the Silk Road and along it, gave the world many innovations while learning from them as well. Chu-Ko-Nu is fine.

    Egypt - UA is good, simple, effective, encourages very cultural play and is pretty satisfying. War Chariot...mmh, it's good, but...I kinda don't like how it doesn't require Horses, because it just...makes little sense. It's using horses. Those are right there in the icon. At the very least, something like only using half of a horse resource would be good, and maybe a little extra promotion, like, bonus versus fortified units would be cool. Burial tomb is interesting enough, though giving it a GW slot like it does in the Africa scenario would be cool.

    England - Part of me wants a decent bit of change, but hmmm, I don't know. Additional range to naval trade routes would be cool. Longbow...eh, it's super good, I know, but I kinda want a UB or UI in its place, because I like those over secondary UUs. I have no idea what it'd be, though. Ship of the Line is boring and could use spicing up. At the very least a Discipline-like bonus to adjacent naval units, whether ranged or melee, would encourage tight fleet battles that crush people when used in packs, as opposed to the bland combat bonus it has now.

    France - Everything is fine, UA definitely makes you scramble to become civilized because if you miss out on those fancy wonders, well, tough, you gotta take them. Musketeer is a little boring, I do not like straight combat bonus units. I kinda want something silly like generating Tourism for each unit killed, but that'd be a bit out there. Chateau is super good and crazy awesome when Hotels come into play, so yay.

    Germany - Topic of much much discussion here. Simple idea I poked in places: "Hanseatic League: Trade routes with City-States give +25% Gold and Science. Engineers give +1 Culture and Happiness." or, if you want to get really crazy, "Forge of Empires: May choose Tenets of every Ideology, regardless of which one is picked." Landsknecht, out the door. I don't like it at all. Give a Workshop or Factory replacement with three Engineer slots that provide double GE points. Panzer, give additional flanking bonuses, and another boost if that tile has had an Air Sweep. Effective blitzkrieging, super powerful for how late it comes. Put the barb recruitment in Honor or something.

    Greece - Still pretty simple and powerful. But either the Companion Cavalry or Hoplite should go in favor of a UB cause that's how I roll. If Hoplite stays, give it an additional bonus on Defense or so. If the Cavalry stays, give it...I don't know, an additional Great Work for capturing a city?

    India - Ugh. Does not do India justice, once more. Religious or Cultural bonuses are a must. Someone suggested the ability to found a second religion, which I found kinda cool, and would work neatly. War Elephant...hmmm, don't know what to do with it. Give the Feared Elephant bonus? Mughal Fort...is tolerable, I guess, notable for being the only building which to my knowledge gives a flat Tourism bonus, so that's something.

    Iroquois - Fine as it is. I like the touch of Caravans having the Forest bonus applied to them, gives nice options to early trade route options. Mohawk Warrior is cool and powerful, Longhouse gets some crazy production. All is well.

    Japan - Definitely kind of...smeh. I don't know what to give it, but Bushido is kinda blah, though effective for naval battles, and apparently it doesn't work exactly as written? Ugggggh. Unhappiness from Ideology pressure halved (or removed outright) would be nifty, Great People costing 50% less Faith would work nicely, etc. etc. Samurai could, I dunno, provide a Great Work while garrisoned? Zero, replace with a Dojo or Torii or something like that. A shrine that provides XP or a WAM specialist would be cool.

    Ottomans - Conflicting. They're effective, but...kinda boring, especially with Privateers available, and it doesn't do well to convey the rich Turkish culture and all that. At a loss for what to do, though. The Sipahi and Janissary are both cool and I don't know which one I'd want to go. Sipahis are cool mini-Conquistadors that are effective at scouting and whatnot, Janissaries are super iconic and all. I guess the Sipahi would go, and be replaced with the Turkish Bath or so.

    Persia - I don't know. I'd kinda want it to change, but it seems fine as-is. Immortals are effective, Satrap Court...okay, kind of comes way too late, and should replace the Market instead, but is otherwise simple and effective.

    Rome - Easy to understand, extremely powerful. Legion should pass on the road/fort construction on upgrade. Ballista should poof and be replaced by a UB, though what that is I have no idea.

    Russia - Haven't played them enough to get them well, but while they look a little boring, they also seem pretty powerful. Double strategics is no joke, and you're really encouraged to go military without direct bonuses, which I generally like, or you can opt instead to trade your riches and swim in gold. Nice production bonuses too, so yay. Cossack should...get some nicer things, kinda bleh, Krepost is...alright, I guess. It's a civ that could do with subtle tweaks, but not any I can think of off-hand.

    Siam - Still effective as ever, though I wonder if that should also apply to Mercantile and Militaristic CSs too, though it might be a little broken. Stampy is cool I guess, haven't used it that much, Wat is cool though a little bland.

    Songhai - Arguably the civ that got the most indirect buffs without changes to itself. Leaner initial gold means you can skimp on the trade routes and still stay in the black, and you have good encouragement to conquer. MPM is cool, gives you nice culture and no maintenance, always nice. I rather like the Mandelaku, as it makes an effective conquering horde when backed up effectively. It's good and doesn't need much change IMO.

    And there you have it, my comprehensive opinions on what vanilla civs need change. DLC ones are all fine in my opinion, though Denmark could use a UB in place of the ski infantry, and Spain a UB in place of the Tercio (which should be renamed into Pike and Shot and be the Renaissance anti-mounted unit while the Lancer is in the cavalry line), and maybe the Khan could be made into part of the UA and give...some UB/I. Same with Korea and the Turtle Ship, I guess.
     
  17. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    The tweak I'd like to see for Russia is to make the Krepost replace Walls rather than Barracks.
     
  18. gigaagig

    gigaagig Chieftain

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    America, Japan, Germany. The honor tree.

    These need a buff.

    And especially Piety. Dear lord Piety needs help.
     
  19. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    I was just correcting the other poster's mistake about landsknecht's abilities. What's your problem with that, now?
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    I would only change the Kris Swordsman this way: as long as you have a unit with a negative promo, no other units will receive that particular negative promo. This gives players a reason to keep them around and solves the problem with having 4 or 5 consecutive bad promos.
     

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