What civ is in Civ, but shouldn't be in the game?

[greekguy]

this is inspired from the "which civ will never, never be in civ" thread. i thought this would be an interesting discussion, so i'll kick it off. i don't think the zulus should be in the game. they didn't have a huge impact on history and they are really nowhere near any other civ in the game.

 

[German Soldier]

yeah, and their always declaring war on me lol , hey suck ass. Also i don't think the iroquis should be in, they only affected the american history, but they didn't really had a big influence, they weren't like the Aztecs , incas and mayas.

 

[sir_schwick]

Byzantium because Rome is already in there(let the flaming begin).

Portugal is questionable b/c of their size and the fact an Iberian culture is already there.

 

[Vael]

5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

Before someone mentions the USA.

 

[German Soldier]

umm usa? i know but who would take america out??

 

[Vael]

After reading through a few threads on the topic of which civs should be included many argue that the USA is too young to be a 'real' civilization. However, I don not find that to be very convincing... they exist for 2 1/2 of the game's 4 ages, which is more than many of the other civilizations which people seem to think are vital inclusions.

 

[Louis XXIV]

yeah, and their always declaring war on me lol , hey suck ass. Also i don't think the iroquis should be in, they only affected the american history, but they didn't really had a big influence, they weren't like the Aztecs , incas and mayas.

I think the Iroquois were very influential on the French, Dutch, and British as well as the Americans (also, many, many native tribes).

 

[Albow]

Vael,

Um? hello? America in the middle ages??? WHAT?!?! (you said 2.5 ages, meaning, they existed in MA, Industrial and 1/2 of middle ages). Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the US as a country start in 1775 (start of war w/ England). Before this, it was a bunch of colonies from other countries ...

I guess I forgot that there were still knights and dragons and stuff running around at Lexington!!

 

[dh_epic]

Truthfully, I don't think any civilization shouldn't be in the game, but it's a question of priorities.

I think the Hittites could have been Civilization number 50 or 60, rather than added in Conquests.

 

[Evie]

Albow - look at the late-medieval techs on the tech tree. Those are not medieval at all ; they're just plain the 1700s stuff.

So while "two and a half" is exaggerated, "two full age and some bits of the third" is dead-on accurate.

And I'll say that pretty much any american civ is a dubious choice. The USA, despite their youth, are still probably the most influent civ in global history America has ever seen ; the global influence of the Aztecs et al can be summed up as "oh, yeah, they were conquered by the Europeans."

 

[Stid]

historically america is the one that stands out as not actually being a civilization lasted the test of time but as they have so much impact in the modern age, i wouldnt take them out.

byzantines shouldnt be IMO as they were basically romans and we also have turkey/ottoman empire.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

... and Hittites. We dont need three civs in Turkey.

 

[flamescreen]

Byzantium is very well were it is IMO. First they're not only Roman, they represent the presence of both Romans and Greeks in the middle ages and werent' really roman, mainly inherited cultural elements from them, after the fall of Rome. The mentioning of Turkey when it comes to Byzantium I find strange, like saying the Indians have something to do with the people that conquered them(be it Spanish, British or Americans) other than occupying the same space eventually.

We might as well take off all the native American tribes with such logic, or the Spanish/British/Americans. Basically, I think a good rule to include or not a civ would be cultural or technological innovations that are still considered important today, but that would probably leave some out that we don't want to. Add to that geographical representation(which would include civs like Zulus) perhaps.

I don't think there are civs that should be excluded fron the game. If it was possible, we should have all the major ones from every era AND continent(In case I want to play with Aboriginals for instance).

 

[Mewtarthio]

Byzantium because Rome is already in there(let the flaming begin).

Portugal is questionable b/c of their size and the fact an Iberian culture is already there.

And America, 'cause England's already there and America's basically an English colony that revolted (counter-example, incidentally, not meant to be serious).

Though taking out Portugal I could understand, for the same reasons you listed.

 

[Graadiapolistan]

Byzantium should still be there- no Celts

America has been a world power for atleast 50 years a time known as PAX AMERICANA
1950-2001

America is an empire- and i personally think it's slowly collapsing like the Roman empire did, but it is an empire

 

[Corvex]

So was Austria-Hungary, but they're not included (nor should they be). If Byzantium doesn't count as separate from Rome, than America DEFINITELY does not count as being distinct from England. And get rid of the Hittites; they were little more than barbarians, certainly not a respectable civilization. And get rid of either the Babylonians or the Sumerians. You don't need both.

 

[CurtSibling]

Byzantium should still be there- no Celts

America has been a world power for atleast 50 years a time known as PAX AMERICANA
1950-2001

America is an empire- and i personally think it's slowly collapsing like the Roman empire did, but it is an empire

Amusing.

The Celts are hugely important in history, so you can forget that one.

And as for the USA: Ddespite some faults, she is not really a colonial
empire, just a huge federal republic with far-reaching powers of projection.

Two options that can be simulated in CIV...

.

 

[dh_epic]

America is distinct from England. Geographically distinct, culturally distinct, historically distinct.

Byzantium is already covered by not only Rome, but the cultures that preceded it in Greece, and the cultures that followed it in Eastern Europe. You could tie Byzantium into the Post-Rome history, or Greek history when Greece wasn't on the map for a while.

It's kind of the same way that Babylon, Sumeria and Persia is a little redundant, or Hittites and Ottomans is a little redundant.

If you add Byzantium, you should add Italy, The Hellenistic Civilization, the Minoan Civilization, the Macedonian Civilization, and so on. These are all reasonable Civs, but somehow, I just don't see them as being a high priority.

 

[Mordack]

The question is too subjective:

This would be like creating a football game and saying that there will only be 10 teams available - publish a poll and you will find that folks will select their favorite team - based solely on the fact that it is their favorite

I am American - so of course I am partial to having the U.S. in the game - however I think the arguments against having the U.S. are intelligent and well thought out, but subjective nonetheless

 

[dexters]

I am American - so of course I am partial to having the U.S. in the game - however I think the arguments against having the U.S. are intelligent and well thought out, but subjective nonetheless

I find the arguments FOR the inclusion of the US far more convincing.

For starters, as already been mentioned, America is present in about 2.5 ages of the tech tree (including what the game describes as the late middle ages)

Secondly, many ancient civilizaitons like Sumeria no longer exist, by the prescribed logic of those arguing for the exclusion of the US, they'd have to remove plenty of other civilizations who only existed for brief periods of history.

But ultimately, the problem people have isn't about time or length of time, its about their perception of the most of the new world nations are simply colonies and provinces of their former masters and doesn't deserve a place on the list of civilization.

You can make a stronger case for countries like Canada and Australia, which retain ties with the crown and owe their existance from the devolution of the British Empire more than anything. But the Americans, well, they have an entire national myth with larger than life heroes just like how the Romans had their creation myth. They fit the bill of a civilization quite well, even if it is one that is 200 years old with a definite time of birth known to history.