yeah, but that's east. i know they had boats that navigated the caribbean. i'm talking west. i didn't remember the name of the island and it was just kind of off by itself in the pacific, so i called it a "random island". apparently, it's called "robinson crusoe" island. it's claimed by chile.
How would awesome know exactly what i meant by origins?
Aztec & Inca (of CiV and more, btw) are referenced within a 15th century collision with Spain. Both had Mayan Ancestors which spanned and flourished from the -20th to the 6th... at least.
Cross the barrier of Time instead of language - if you all dare.
But (oh, please ) do NOT insult my intellect.
I still have no genuine clue what you're talking about. Let me just ask you so I can narrow this down:
Do you want the Mayans in the game?
Do you agree that the Mayans are a Central American civ, so technically part of North America?
If they had a starting point on a world map, it would be the Yucatan Peninsula, right?
I still have no genuine clue what you're talking about. Let me just ask you so I can narrow this down:
Do you want the Mayans in the game?
Do you agree that the Mayans are a Central American civ, so technically part of North America?
If they had a starting point on a world map, it would be the Yucatan Peninsula, right?
I know, I said the same thing on post #232. Although they did practice human sacrifice as well, for what it's worth (i.e., they weren't peaceful). I have no clue what this has to do with my post, though.
Do you want the Mayans in the game?
Do you agree that the Mayans are a Central American civ, so technically part of North America?
If they had a starting point on a world map, it would be the Yucatan Peninsula, right?
1) No, maybe, yes - pick a response.
2) Yes, but they never actually were a North or South or Central American tribe -- since they've been proven as *MORE* advanced socially and technologically than all European countries combined while Greek scientists were still unable to determine where Jupiter is yearly and accurately by the time Socrates & mythology ruled their culture. I'll even go further than that, what Spain found in the new world was BEYOND their comprehension.
3) Yes, maybe, no (Locations of some migratory patterns in BC calendar terms are still highly variable for a few reasons, one of which -- Pacific coast trails that lead some out of the Arizona deserts and into Mexico), as i have already written in an earlier comment. The origins or documented proofs *OF* European interpretations. Traces burnt through conquest of the Aztecs.
Once they settled a bit more static (In Yucatan, if you prefer) - architectural details the size of Cities were left for all to discover. Egypt buried, Maya sculpted a past and extremely solid evidence such as mathematics (THE zero, btw) and sacrificial legacy.
Hispanolia was an infinitesimal glimpse of much more complex "Puzzles" that can't be started or locked into Amazonia or the Great Lakes. More like Ice Age glaciers that flooded Mediterranean coasts (Noah, anyone?) as well as numerous regions already populated by *PRE* Maya Inuits that simply went South until they clugged in Florida or anywhere else including Yucatan *AND* the Pacific Ocean itself.
In summary, read a Codex (now) invisible enough that it proved a civilization can vanish if genetically weak or dangerously too atheist for even Buddism.
yeah, but that's east. i know they had boats that navigated the caribbean. i'm talking west. i didn't remember the name of the island and it was just kind of off by itself in the pacific, so i called it a "random island". apparently, it's called "robinson crusoe" island. it's claimed by chile.
1) No, maybe, yes - pick a response.
2) Yes, but they never actually were a North or South or Central American tribe -- since they've been proven as *MORE* advanced socially and technologically than all European countries combined while Greek scientists were still unable to determine where Jupiter is yearly and accurately by the time Socrates & mythology ruled their culture. I'll even go further than that, what Spain found in the new world was BEYOND their comprehension.
3) Yes, maybe, no (Locations of some migratory patterns in BC calendar terms are still highly variable for a few reasons, one of which -- Pacific coast trails that lead some out of the Arizona deserts and into Mexico), as i have already written in an earlier comment. The origins or documented proofs *OF* European interpretations. Traces burnt through conquest of the Aztecs.
Once they settled a bit more static (In Yucatan, if you prefer) - architectural details the size of Cities were left for all to discover. Egypt buried, Maya sculpted a past and extremely solid evidence such as mathematics (THE zero, btw) and sacrificial legacy.
Hispanolia was an infinitesimal glimpse of much more complex "Puzzles" that can't be started or locked into Amazonia or the Great Lakes. More like Ice Age glaciers that flooded Mediterranean coasts (Noah, anyone?) as well as numerous regions already populated by *PRE* Maya Inuits that simply went South until they clugged in Florida or anywhere else including Yucatan *AND* the Pacific Ocean itself.
In summary, read a Codex (now) invisible enough that it proved a civilization can vanish if genetically weak or dangerously too atheist for even Buddism.
If you step back a bit and look at the Civ franchise as a whole, you'll realize that the selection of Civs, UUs, UBs, and start locations doesn't necessarily reflect history accurately. In designing a game, the primary driving force behind including or not including a civ is how cool it is to play. Sure there has to be some basis in reality, but in the end it is a game which is driven by gameplay mechanics.
Here is some obvious but necessary framing logic. The Civ5 model seems to be to include some of the most popular civs along with a few relative unknowns, and put the remainder into city states and DLC. City states for the ones which have less support, DLC for the ones with lots of support. And perhaps intentionally putting some highly desirable, traditional civs in DLC to get some extra income.
In this context, the more detailed historical aspects of the Maya (and generally of "the Americas") is of little consequence. If enough people see Maya, Aztec, and Inca civilizations as unique, then each may find its way into the game by one of the 3 release mechanisms. If they are not seen as unique then probably not.
Another thing to keep in mind, civilizations are remembered for their period of greatness, not for what they eventually became. Egypt of the middle kingdom (in concept at least, though technically inaccurate) is in the game even though it was eventually assimilated by the Greeks and Romans, which themselves are merely shadows today of their initial greatness. Post-Roman Italy has at times been an economic and cultural powerhouse but its later eras are mere city states -- for example as Florence and Venice.
I don't want to derail the conversation further with discussion of the lineage of the Native American cultures, but you may find it interesting to look into the Anasazi and Hohokam. No need to post on them here though.
Marketing has indeed a knack for estimating sales potential on "real" factors such as developed economies.
However, the gameplay terminology is in direct contradiction to (some) context options driven by a clear incentive; value to the consumers.
The gaming industry competes with --- you name it!
I know, I said the same thing on post #232. Although they did practice human sacrifice as well, for what it's worth (i.e., they weren't peaceful). I have no clue what this has to do with my post, though.
Depending on perspective, a peaceful civ could practice sacrifice. It was only for religion, not punishment. But back on topic.
The Mayans were technologically advanced compared to the Aztecs (Comparing with the Greeks and Romans might be a stretch), and I could easily see an observatory replacement that grants happiness and doesn't have to be next to a mountain. Or a plantation replacement for a UI. UUs might be harder, and it would be weird to see a wheeled Mayan unit.
OK, so the old list was getting a bit out to date (This is a new topic for 'What Civs/Nations do you want in the first expansion pack for Civ 5?') so I've made a new topic which can be updated frequently.
Update history 4 April 2011
Thread is over 1 month old! Updated entries for several civs, including Hebrew, Majapahit, and Dutch
Added section for DLC Scenarios
29 March 2011
Updated entries including Zulu, Carthage and Majahapit
17 March 2011
Updated several entries, including Sioux, Maori, Kongo, Maya
Added Unique Abilities to Dutch and Portugal
Updated Poland
3 March 2011
Topic posted with civs from OP of other topic
Added Anasazi
Updated list with details for Carthage, Norse and Byzantium (Credit Louis XXIV)
Added Scores of new civs
Updated Numidian Cavalry entry
List of Civilizations (Unique Components (Where applicable) in spoilers)
Norse/Vikings
Spoiler:
Norse (or Scandinavians or Danes)
Leader:Cnut the Great
Unique Unit: Berzerker (replace Longswordsmen, no idea for stats)
Unique Unit 2: Longboat (replace Galley, crapload extra movement)
Unique Ability: Viking Raiders (all units have amphibious promotion. Can enter the water and cross rivers without losing movement points).
Carthage
Spoiler:
Carthage
Leader: Hannibal
Unique Unit: Numidian Cavalry (replace Horsemen, reduce combat strength but give it ranged ability, has 5 movement )
Unique Building: Cothon (replace Harbor, produce gold per turn)
Unique Ability: Mercenary Armies (cheaper rush buying of armies).
Maya
Spoiler:
Maya
Leader: Pacal
Unique Unit: Holkan (replaces spearman, 10% bonus when attacking cities, gains experience 50% faster)
Unique Building: Lintel (replaces monument, +2 culture and +1 production, scientist slot, no maintenance)
Unique Abilitity: Prophecy (+15% science per city)
Kongo
Spoiler:
Kongo
Leader: Lukeni
Unique Unit: Ambundu Warrior (replaces Longswordsman, does not require iron, 20 strength)
Unique Building: Momboare (replaces Windmill, +25% to production, city must not be built on hills)
Ability: Jungle Lore (Jungles provide +1 and +2 :c5production production, all military units take 25% less damage from ranged attacks)
Maori
Spoiler:
Maori
Leader: Te Rauparaha (Hongi Hika as second choice)
Unique Ability: Children of Tumatauenga: Maori melee units start with Survivalism I and Sentry, enemy melee units lose 10% strength when invading Maori territory (doesn't include cities).
Unique Building: Gunfighter's Pa (replaces castle, city takes 20% less damage from bombardment, 15% less damage from gunpowder units)
Unique Unit: Maori Warrior (the same as the one in the Polynesian civ).
Portugal
Spoiler:
Portugal
Leader:
Unique Unit:
Unique Component:
Unique Ability: (Unnamed) - Automatically has trade routes between coastal cities after Compass.
Poland
Spoiler:
Poland
LEADER; Józef Piłsudski or Lech Wałęsa
UU; Sherman (replaces Tank) +1 Movement such as the Panzer, cost less!
UB; Factory that doesn't require Coal to be built and gives a 75% boost to production - Cost=250 - Maintenance=1
UA; Solidarność, Unemployed citizens still work on tiles if used as Specialists.
Ethiopia
Spoiler:
Ethiopia
Leader:
Unique Unit:
Unique Building: Amba (Replaces courthouse, provides 2 per turn, in addition to removing excess unhappiness from annexed cities)
Unique Ability:
Zulu
Spoiler:
Zulu
Leader:
Unique Unit: Impi (Replaces Pikeman, requires Iron. 10 )
Unique Building: Ikhanda (Replaces barracks, provides 30 XP instead of 15)
Unique Improvement: Kraal (Can be built on same resorces as Pasture, provides +1 additional and
Unique Ability: (UNNAMED - +10% combat strength with a neighbouring friendly unit (Stacks?)
Byzantium
Spoiler:
Byzantium
Leader: Either Alexis or Basil the Bulgar Slayer
Unique Unit: Cataphract (Knight with bonuses against melee units)
Unique Building: Basilica (replace Monastery, give happiness and cultural bonuses without need for wine or incense)
Unique Ability: Code of Justinian (Maintenance free Courthouses in every conquered city).
Sioux
Spoiler:
Sioux
Leader:
Unique Unit: Dog Soldier: 25 :c5stregth: 4 :c5movement: (+1) Double (& stackable, as usual) flanking bonus (+10% or +15%, I forget)Replaces Cavalry.
Unique Improvement:Teepee - Can be placed outside (or within) a players territory on any tile containing either Cattle or Deer (so Teepees can't be placed everywhere). The Teepee gives all friendly adjacent units +1 healing per turn and a +10% combat bonus. (In the borders of a city, the Teepee tile can be worked, operating as a Camp or Animal Pen for active Citizens).
Requires -Trapping.
Unique Ability: The Hunters Way - All cattle worked by a city provide +1 food, All horses provide +1 gold, and all deer provide +1 Production
Khmer
Majapahit
Spoiler:
Majapahit
Leader: Gajah Mada
Unique Ability: Glory of the Archaepalago - Coastal tiles provide +1 food OR[/i] Grand State (half maintenance on buildings)
Unique Unit: Keris Warrior (Replaces Swordsman / Longswordsman)
Unique Unit 2: Kapal (replaces Caravel, can melee attack, starts with Targeting I, all other info stays the same) OR
Unique Building: Candi (replaces garden, doesn't require rivers or lakes, +33% great people generation in this city, all else the same)
Celts
Korea
Dutch
Spoiler:
Dutch
Unique Improvement: Windmolen. Adds one production to a tile. May only be build next to a lake. Drains adjacent lake in X number of turns turning it into a Polder. Polder has a basic yield of 2 food and 2 gold. A farm, road or railroad may be build on it. The tile remains a source of fresh water. If the Windmolen is destroyed the lake will fill up again in X number of turns.
(in the case of bigger lakes, a windmolen is needed for every laketile in order to drain it, number of turns increases exponentially)
Unique Unit: East-Indiamen
UA: Mercantilism, trade network earns extra gold for every extra luxury resources connected (ie, every second/third/fourth etc. resource of one type).
Assyrians
Hebrew
Spoiler:
Herbrew
LEADER: Moses
Unique Ability: Migration... Capital can sustain at least 3 specialists free, by choice.
Unique Building: Synagogue, (Replaces Monastery, +3 Culture, does not require Wine or Incence, provides +1 per city population
Unique Unit: (Unnamed, has Retreat ability of Incan Slinger, melee)
Unique Improvement: Olive Plantation,
Timurids OR Mughals
Austria
Hungary
Bulgaria
Aborigines
Anasazi / Hopi
Moors
Inuit?
Spoiler:
Inuits (aka-Eskimos)
LEADER; Atanarjuat
UA; Can exploit & develop Polar regions Arctic_Ice + Snow Tiles (Modifies Yields).
UB; Igloo, speeds production of Units by 50%
UU; Fisherman, Worker has Double-Speed & can improve any Coastal tiles
List of DLC Scenarios Scramble for Africa - Whoever owns the largest % of African territory endgame wins. In DLC with Ethiopian Empire, Zulu Empire and Dutch Empire. Manifest Destiny - America; Your territory must reach unbroken from the Atlantic and Pacific by endgame. Native Americans stop American expansion and can be hostile or friendly. In DLC with Cherokee Empire and Sioux Empire (Possibly two different Native American Civilizations
SUCESSFUL CIVILIZATIONS
Spain - Released as DLC 16 December 2010
Inca - Released as DLC 16 December 2010
Polynesia - Released as DLC 3 March 2011
Also, this topic will be to discuss Unique Components for each civ, including:
Unique Unit
Unique Unit 2 (If Applicable)
Unique Building (If Applicable)
Unique Improvement (If Applicable)
Unique Ability
To be done: (Feel free to help, I can't do this on my own)
Finish Civilization list based on posts in other topic
Wouldn't Maori be in as Polynesians too? Given this is fan speculation, I still say go wild.
Anyway, I'll add a new one (included already as a City State if we're picky):
Venice
Leader: Enrico Dandolo
Unique Unit: Pavise Crossbowmen - Crossbow replacement. 12 strength, 12 ranged strength. Can't melee attack. Can fire while embarked, but only at half strength.
Two options for the rest
Unique Building: Arsenale, replaces Harbor. Bonus experience to all units (naval and land). Land units receive defensive embarkation.
Unique Ability: City of Canals, free walls in all coastal cities.
Alternatively:
Unique Building: Canals/Canale, replaces Harbor. +5 defense.
Unique Ability: La Serenissima Repubblica, Great Artists produced at double rate, landmarks produce 2 more culture per turn, free Great Artist at Acoustics.
Actually, that's not the case. By the time it was a dual monarchy, Austria was on the decline. After all, they had to agree to this change because they were powerless to stop Hungarian nationalism. After that point, they continually fought internal rebellions against their rule from other groups that wanted autonomy under the monarchy. Furthermore, they were paralyzed for most decision making by the Hungarian legislature that further weakened the Austrian monarchy and the Austrian legislature. Certainly, World War I was not the height of their power as compared to Austria's dominance of the Holy Roman Empire or their influence as a major player in Napoleonic and post-Napoleonic Europe.
In other words, while the height of their power was at a time when Austria controlled Hungary. Austria-Hungary was a period of decline and collapse for the Hapsburg Empire.
In that case, Austria would preferred over Hungary- I could easily see a UA involving culture, since Vienna is cultural. Possibly a scenario involving France and the Turks?
Sorry for the bump and double post, but I have a new idea for the Byzantines:
Leader: Justinian (fits the cultural aspect of the civ)
UA: Untitled, 2x culture for SPs or +4 culture per city during a Golden Age.
UU: Greek Fire, replaces Catapult. 25% bonus while defending.
UB: Replacement to Monastery, requires no resources and has no matinence.
UU 2: Crusader, replaces Longswordsman. +20% while taking cities.
Also, where are the Cherokee on the list?
speaking of new ideas for civilizations we already made:
Maya:
Leader: Six Sky
Unique unit: Holkan (Replaces: Spearman, only 75% bonus vs mounted units, defeated units are converted to workers)
Unique building: Sacul (Replaces Monument, 0 Maintenance, +2 culture, great artist slot, costs only 30 hammers)
Ability: Prophecy: +15% science per city
Norse (or Scandinavians or Danes)
Leader:Cnut the Great
Unique Unit: Berzerker (replace Longswordsmen, no idea for stats)
Unique Unit 2: Longboat (replace Galley, crapload extra movement)
Unique Ability: Viking Raiders (all units have amphibious promotion. Can enter the water and cross rivers without losing movement points).
For the UU berserker, maybe a massive attack boost but a defensive penalty, given the fact that they wore little to no heavy armor (especially when compared to the longswordsman).
As for UA, I would actually give them the combination of the current German and Ottoman UA's and giving both of the latter Civ's new abilities entirely.
Zulu
Spoiler:
Zulu
Leader:
Unique Unit: Impi (Replaces Pikeman, requires Iron. 10 )
Unique Building: Ikhanda (Replaces barracks, provides 30 XP instead of 15)
Unique Improvement: Kraal (Can be built on same resorces as Pasture, provides +1 additional and
Unique Ability: (UNNAMED - +10% combat strength with a neighbouring friendly unit (Stacks?)
Leader has got to be Shaka. And perhaps the UA could be a +1 movement for all land melee units?
Byzantium
Spoiler:
Leader: Either Alexis or Basil the Bulgar Slayer
Unique Unit: Cataphract (Knight with bonuses against melee units)
Unique Building: Basilica (replace Monastery, give happiness and cultural bonuses without need for wine or incense)
Unique Ability: Code of Justinian (Maintenance free Courthouses in every conquered city).
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) do NOT insult my intellect.
culture and +1 
production, scientist slot, no maintenance)
science per city) 
strength)
and +2 :c5production production, all military units take 25% less damage from ranged attacks)
gold, and all deer provide +1 
great people generation in this city, all else the same)
