What if Columbus did not discover America?

[Whomp]

Van Sertima is very controversial with anthropologists but is not the first scholar to make this ascertain. On July 7, 1987 Dr. Van Sertima appeared before a Congressional Committee to challenge the Columbus myth. In November 1991 he defended his thesis in an address to the Smithsonian Institute. In this arena Ivan Van Sertima has emerged as an undefeated champion.

One example from the book was from Columbus himself:
“The Indians of Espanola said there had come to Espanola a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they called gua-nin, of which he [Columbus] had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper. The origin of the word guanin may be tracked down in the Mande languages of West Africa, through Mandigo, Kabunga, Toronka, Kankanka, Banbara, Mande and Vei. In Vei, we have the form of the word ka-ni which, transliterated into native phonetics, would give us gua-nin.”

 

[HalfBadger]

Indian tribes (which hadn't even discovered iron) sailing across the Atlantic ocean to annex Europe... yes, that's what probably would have happen...

Hmmm, if the American Aboriginal Tribes had discovered Europe and the europeans realise their less developed technology, they could have backtracked or sailed back with the Aboriginals and conquered the New World, just the same. Or least the fact that there were other un discovered tribes across the atlantic would have potentially created a huge surge of explorers and expeditions.

 

[Plotinus]

In 1311, the Malian king, Mansa Abubakari II, launched a mighty expedition to see if, like the great river Niger, the Atlantic Ocean had a further bank. First he sent 200 ships, laden with supplies, west beyond the horizon. A single ship returned, telling of a current in the middle of the sea - like a river - that sucked the other ships west. Being an adventurous bod, Abubakari decided not only to send 2,000 more ships after the first lot, full of men and supplies, but to lead this second expedition himself. He abdicated the throne in favour of his brother Musa, sailed west with his men, and was never heard of again.

This expedition is a key plank in the theory that Africans discovered America before Europeans. Strikingly, many of the oral historians' - or griots' stories about Mansa Abubakari II are only now being told, because for many years the griots regarded his abdication and quest for adventure as a shameful act of betrayal against his own kingdom. He was compared unfavourably with his famous brother Mansa Musa, an emperor of such renown - and wealth - that his legend reached Europe.

 

[Princeps]

What if Columbus did not discover America?

It would have been discovered later on. Perhaps by someone else.

 

[Chieftess]

Nah, the Arawaks with their sea-going canoes for long distance trade between the Carribean islands would have beaten them to it.

Weren't they being pushed out by the Caribs?

I've thought of this before -- was going to make a thread on it --, but here's the short version: (suipposing there's no contact, and that N/S America is seperated from the world, that is, the rest of the world doesn't exist for the purpose of this alternate history scenario).

PoD (Point of Divergence as it's called on Alternate History sites -- it doesn't refer to dolphins): No one discovers the Americas. No Assyrian traders, no Polynesians, no Romans (or Roman artifaces washing up on shore), no Chinese, no Vikings, no Spanish. No one. The Americas develop at their own pace.

I think the Caribs would've gotten to some parts of Florida and Yucatan. Once they came into contact with the Mayans (they might've regrouped - common threat), and Aztecs, they would've been stalled. Floridian tribes would be pushed back, and tried to resist. The Tarascans would've conquered the Aztecs eventually (probably closer towards 1600AD). Once the Inca (I think they would've stayed on the mountains) and Tarascans and other tribes to the north of them met, the entire Mesoamerican region would have become a huge trade route. In time, there would be competition for the Gulf of Mexico and Carribean regions for quicker trade routes. If you look at the sized of that region, and the Roman Empire, they're about the same size. (The Aztecs and Tarascans were about the same size -- put together -- as the Assyrians). You also have to remember that North and South America are much larger than Europe. I would also think that the Mexico region would have tremendous competition from tribes coming south from the mountains, leading to many cultures and wars for dominance. The Missippi region would have acquired farming techniques from the trade route, and perhaps have their own trade route along the river. Areas such as the NW Mississippi valley region, Mesopotamia, and Brazil are also rich in copper. Mid-late copper age societies would most likely come from these regions. The east coast of the US would either give rise to iron age socieites, or traders acquiring iron. (If it's traders, it might first come from Florida/Carribean). I also think that it's possible that there could have been a Rome-like civilization (in that it controls the 2 seas). It might've lasted longer as to the north, there's huge open spaces. Although, they might have much more competition to the south, where the continent narrows again. Even though they're 2500-3500 years behind (depending on your source) in technology, I think the level of competition might've acellerated it after a few hundred years.

 

[Cashie]

Weren't they [Arawaks] being pushed out by the Caribs?

As I'm lead to believe, yes. Although I only have a Lonely Planet entry (for Guyana) as a source for this... Can't seem to find it as yet either...

 

[LLXerxes]

Some other guy with a twinkle in his eye, a bagfull of swash and a sackful of gold would have set off into the unknown two years later.

Probably...

Here's the thing. We can always ask ourselves "what if we did this when we really did this." and get absolutely nowhere. For example, you put on a red shirt and blue jeans and go to school. Somebody gets in a car accident. But what if you put on the blue shirt instead of the Red? Would that person had gotten in a crash? It's wasting time, because there is no way of finding out. But i sit at night and puzzle myself.

If Columbus stopped short, he would have come back and said, yes. Nobody's out there. What if he skipped that island and ran through into panama or something, claiming it as India? Or what if he gotr a brain and realized that that PEOPLE FROM INDIA DON'T RUN AROUND HALF NAKED WITH STICKS AND SPEARS TO GET FOOD, and returned back saying "we should conquer this land!"

There had already been people there earlier.
Lief Erikkson and Vikings.
That guy from China in 1421
AMerigo Vespucci.

 

[blindside]

Probably...

Here's the thing. We can always ask ourselves "what if we did this when we really did this." and get absolutely nowhere. For example, you put on a red shirt and blue jeans and go to school. Somebody gets in a car accident. But what if you put on the blue shirt instead of the Red? Would that person had gotten in a crash? It's wasting time, because there is no way of finding out. But i sit at night and puzzle myself.

Yeah I thought about that. You can it even more confusing by saying the slightest movement of my right pinky one in one absolute direction over another from a group of infinite possibilities of movement, I have somehow changed everything in this world.

 

[Scythian_Jatt]

In 1311, the Malian king, Mansa Abubakari II, launched a mighty expedition to see if, like the great river Niger, the Atlantic Ocean had a further bank. First he sent 200 ships, laden with supplies, west beyond the horizon. A single ship returned, telling of a current in the middle of the sea - like a river - that sucked the other ships west. Being an adventurous bod, Abubakari decided not only to send 2,000 more ships after the first lot, full of men and supplies, but to lead this second expedition himself. He abdicated the throne in favour of his brother Musa, sailed west with his men, and was never heard of again.

This expedition is a key plank in the theory that Africans discovered America before Europeans. Strikingly, many of the oral historians' - or griots' stories about Mansa Abubakari II are only now being told, because for many years the griots regarded his abdication and quest for adventure as a shameful act of betrayal against his own kingdom. He was compared unfavourably with his famous brother Mansa Musa, an emperor of such renown - and wealth - that his legend reached Europe.

Keep goin...

 

[temurleng]

That book by Van Sertima was good!
I have another one: "The Years of Rice and Salt". It's fiction, but Europe gets 99% of its pop wiped out by the Black Plague. Dar al Islam colonizes the depopulated Europe, competes with China for World Supremacy. (link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...7/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-9190067-8556745)

Regarding Mansa Musa: After the previous king commisioned the two fleets to sail west, but nothing good came of it, he focused his attention northward. He formed a large caravan for the Hijra (pilgramige) to Mecce. They spent so much pure gold in Egypt, it's value was depressed for years. He developed contacts with the numerous Islamic states he traveled through to Mecca and back. He then commissioned the academians and religious scholars who voluntarily came with him to revamp the education system of his realm. A massive city-building program began in the capital, Timbuktu, sprouting universities and mosques all over. Though the city had previously been known only as the last point before you crossed the Sahara northward, it quickly became a center for advanced learning.

The Malinke state didn't last long, though: A group called the Songhai (who I've seen described as barbarians, semi-nomadic pastoralists, and a rival state), invaded from the northeast, eventually wiping out the Malinke state. The Songhai weren't concerned with schlasticism as much: they just wanted to secure the Trans-Saharan salt-gold trade.

 

[Vietcong]

wasnt evidnce of chines or phonicans discovered in south america?? i know thay found sometihng that thay call "americas stone heange" sp* in new england with some writen text thats unknow, all tho it apers to be based off a eruopean germanic languig of the early centure, around the time of chtist

 

[Vietcong]

o, and with in a few years some one eals whold discover it. then every thing whold happen prity much the same.. over half the natives die out from desies, and the surch for gold and trad routs will cuse the sinticivly advanced eruopeans civs to conqur the american ones, witch whold be in political stife and falling to pices due to desies. alot will be put into slavery for gold gathering ext. when that source of slaves is gone or low blacks will be brought in from africa.. same old thing over agin, maby off by a few years..

sorry but i cant see any major native resistance, untieing aginst a comman threat or becomeing iron age civs.. rember thay whear being riped arpat my famin and deises at this time, thear goverments whear falling to bits.

 

[Volstag]

I'm sure this has been already mentioned, but: Columbus didn't discover America. Why this continues to be taught in American schools, I will never know. If he discovered anything, it's probably that subjugating indigenious peoples can be a lucrative trade.

As an aside, there's compelling evidence to suggest that Columbus wasn't even Italian.

-V

 

[gael]

I've read that there is a complex burial site in New England with Irish Ogham on it, (a from of early Gaelic writing), that has been dated to 800BC and an inscription ten foot in length in W.Virginia dated to 500 and 700AD.

Ogham is found predominately in Ireland, less so in Scotland (who were Irish) and a few in northern Spain (were the Irish 'celts' are said to have orginated)

 

[Vietcong]

yea thats "americas stone heange" sp, as i mentiond

 

[Lord_Sidious]

If Columbus did not discovered america, some Portuguese would discovered soon or later.

 

[das]

Cabot discovered it separately in 1494. And so did the Portuguese.

Its rather hard to prevent the discovery of America. A different thing altogether is the way it is colonized...

 

[HalfBadger]

Something mentioned above about Columbus declaring the land he landed on India, because thats what he was looking for or so the story goes.

Why didn't anyone correct him or who ever tried to officially call the aboriginal tribes Indian?

They obviously aren't East Indians, sadly (Mainly in North American I guess) we refer to people who have lived in the land of India for 1000s of years as EAST Indian and the people who live in a land never called India, other than a short while by these explorers, as Indians.

Why weren't American Aboriginals called Western Indians or something different?

It'd obviously help on so many issues, like refering to an East Indian, rightfully as just Indian and some assuming you mean North American Aboriginal and then corrected them saying no I mean a real Indian, which can open up a whole other can of worms.

 

[teccuk]

Well Cabot was hot on his heels, was'nt he the first to actually find the mainland?

I though the whole thing about the aztecs is they had masses of gold but no bronze or iron, gold swords are'nt very good are they?

 

[steviejay]

I though the whole thing about the aztecs is they had masses of gold but no bronze or iron, gold swords are'nt very good are they?

I wouldn't mind having one