What if Germany had gotten it's act together a hunder years sooner?

[Yui108]

Last night as I was reading about the Franco-Prussian war in which the germanic states unified for the first time when France declared war on Prussia and all the German states fought together against mighty France and captured Paris in a few months, under the guidance of Otto Van Bismarck. Germany formerly united some years later, but I was wondering if A German continental power had come to Europe in 1770, not 1870 what would the world be like today? Certainly Napolean would have had a much harder time of it but think. If they had come when the world wasn't *Totally* divided up into colonies, how would it be different? Would World War I and II have happened? How about the de facto establishment of Britain as the number one world power and France a second? Would Germany perhaps have become one of the nations?

Please give thoughts/ideas.

 

[Bast]

Last night as I was reading about the Franco-Prussian war in which the germanic states unified for the first time when France declared war on Prussia and all the German states fought together against mighty France and captured Paris in a few months, under the guidance of Otto Van Bismarck. Germany formerly united some years later, but I was wondering if A German continental power had come to Europe in 1770, not 1870 what would the world be like today? Certainly Napolean would have had a much harder time of it but think. If they had come when the world wasn't *Totally* divided up into colonies, how would it be different? Would World War I and II have happened? How about the de facto establishment of Britain as the number one world power and France a second? Would Germany perhaps have become one of the nations?

Please give thoughts/ideas.

Well, 1770 was a very different Europe. One of the biggest reasons why Germany united was because of French aggression under Napoleon. In 1770, there was no French or any other aggression.

Remember also, that the Holy Roman Empire was still in existence then through Austria which was a major power.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

England was already mostly industrialized (England industrialized long before anyone else), so they probably would still have been the de facto number 1 World Power either way. A united Germany wouldn't have changed that one.

As to the other geopolitical spheres, I don't know. I guess it would depend if Germany united under then Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II, or Prussian King Frederick II, who was trying to expand his realm west into the Holy Roman domains...

 

[xfactor99]

It's kind of hard to envision how Germany could have unified a century earlier - the concept of nationalism did not really become a factor until the early 19th century. Plus, it was Napoleon's invasion that created the Confederation of the Rhine, one of the first attempts for actual German unity, and also humiliated so many Germans that they got their butt kicked by the French. Even then, it took about 70 years for all of the Germanic states to unify through Prussian military conquest and Bismarck diplomacy, a very gradual process that took quite a long time.

I'd say a unified Germany in 1770 would struggle mightily with internal division, have an ineffective monarchy, and would start wars with France and Russia every few years. Germany could have industrialized quickly and challenged the United Kingdom for world supremacy in the 19th century, but it would have to overcome a lot more than it did in 1871.

 

[warpus]

A unified Germany 100 years earlier would have probably meant an earlier death of Poland and by extension, conflict with Russia. France would have probably joined in that war.

We'd probably have seen an earlier world war.

 

[cubsfan6506]

Not even feasible to discuss the buttefly effect makes any stuff like this impossible to predict.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

A unified Germany 100 years earlier would have probably meant an earlier death of Poland and by extension, conflict with Russia.

How so? Wasn't Poland partitioned about 100 years before Germany was unified anyways?

 

[Yui108]

What if a ultra charismatic Figure though had emerged a century earlier? That's how I'm imagining Germany united.

 

[warpus]

How so? Wasn't Poland partitioned about 100 years before Germany was unified anyways?

Well, yeah, it was partitioned in 1772, 1793, and 1795. If Germany unified in 1770, that process would have probably been accelerated - and I'd forsee conflict between Germany and Russia, as to who gets what.

The partitioning between 3 powers instead of 2 was pretty smooth as no 1 power could overpower the other 2.. In this case though, Germany would clearly be much stronger - and would possibly demand all of Poland.. which would in turn anger Russia - leading to war.. at least that's how I see it all playing out.

 

[Bast]

Well, yeah, it was partitioned in 1772, 1793, and 1795. If Germany unified in 1770, that process would have probably been accelerated - and I'd forsee conflict between Germany and Russia, as to who gets what.

The partitioning between 3 powers instead of 2 was pretty smooth as no 1 power could overpower the other 2.. In this case though, Germany would clearly be much stronger - and would possibly demand all of Poland.. which would in turn anger Russia - leading to war.. at least that's how I see it all playing out.

Remember, Catherine the Great was tsarina in Russia at the time. I'm not so sure about that. How was her relationship with Frederick?

I could actually see major conflict between Germany and Austria and Russia joining one side possibly.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Of all the German states, only Austria had anywhere near enough power in 1770 to unify Germany. Prussia was much smaller (much of its 19th century power came from land gains at the Congress of Vienna and from having a high birth rate after the Napoleonic Wars) and didn't have the technological edge that it would gain through industrialization in the next century.

I don't see Austria undertaking such a thing. I don't see protestant german states submitting to ubercatholic Habsburg rule. Remember, most of Germany spent the previous few hundred years trying to wrestle more and more power from Vienna.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

However, if a unified Germany magically did appear in 1770, it's possible that Poland would have been partitioned entirely between Austria and Russia, in order for those two to gain enough power to counter-balance the new threat of a unified Germany. That was the logic of partitioning Poland in our timestream after Russia helped itself to lots of Turkish territory.

 

[Disenfrancised]

extension, conflict with Russia. France would have probably joined in that war.

We'd probably have seen an earlier world war.

1770 France would have done one hell of a lot better thanks to not having fallen behind demographically yet.

Year::France:UK:Germany(sans Austria):Russia

1770::27:8:21:22 << France is the most populous and powerful country in europe, and can field more men than most of her rivals put together, hence all those coalitions against france.
1870::36:26:41:60 << Everyone else is catching up
1914::39:41:67:91 << France is now dead last
1940::40:48:70:110 << France sucks bad

 

[aronnax]

1770 France would have done one hell of a lot better thanks to not having fallen behind demographically yet.

Year::France:UK:Germany(sans Austria):Russia

1770::27:8:21:22 << France is the most populous and powerful country in europe, and can field more men than most of her rivals put together, hence all those coalitions against france.
1870::36:26:41:60 << Everyone else is catching up
1914::39:41:67:91 << France is now dead last
1940::40:48:70:110 << France sucks bad

France powerful in the 1770 I can understand, but France Powerful 13 years later, not so much. the revoloution was a giant blow to French influence, power and Strenght as they murdered their best war generals. Although after the revoloution they were millitary powerful and a thorn in the backside of Europe. Werent every European country murdering its econmomy by refusing to trade with them. A unified Germany before Napoleon could have possibly stop Nappy dead in his tracks

 

[Verbose]

France powerful in the 1770 I can understand, but France Powerful 13 years later, not so much. the revoloution was a giant blow to French influence, power and Strenght as they murdered their best war generals. Although after the revoloution they were millitary powerful and a thorn in the backside of Europe. Werent every European country murdering its econmomy by refusing to trade with them. A unified Germany before Napoleon could have possibly stop Nappy dead in his tracks

What generals were murdered in the revolution? And the good ones of the monarchy, which were those? There's always Lafayette of course, but he looks kind of lonely in the talented pre-revolution-French-generals-departmernt, and he lived to 1834...

As for French power:
Prior to the revolution the French monarchy was broke, French agriculture wasn't managing to feed the nation, and non-noble Frenchmen in general were unable to do most anything, due to the system of privileges (royal, noble and artisanal).

After the French revolution privileges were removed, the coffers of the state filled as money and assets salted away by the monarchy and aristocracy were nationalised, but most importantly French society took off because the old constraints of the privilege system were removed. Suddenly anyone with ambition and talent could have a go at things, where previously this would have been a matter of being born in the right position in society; very inefficient. Consequently French society boomed.

Result: More power to France than ever.

 

[aelf]

France powerful in the 1770 I can understand, but France Powerful 13 years later, not so much. the revoloution was a giant blow to French influence, power and Strenght as they murdered their best war generals. Although after the revoloution they were millitary powerful and a thorn in the backside of Europe. Werent every European country murdering its econmomy by refusing to trade with them. A unified Germany before Napoleon could have possibly stop Nappy dead in his tracks

It's strange that you say this because France's greatest foreign policy successes were the result of the Revolution. The Republic achieved what the Bourbon and Valois dynasties could only dream of, even in the time of Louis XIV, within a few short years. In fact, the first part of your paragraph contradicts with the second.

Check your textbooks again.

 

[Adler17]

Well, Frederic could have been married with Maria Theresia. And such a marriage might have united Germany. The 7 years war would have been lead but with other coalitions. Prussia, Hannover, Austria and Britain against France, Bavaria, Saxony, Sweden and Russia. Ironically this German state might have even helped Poland! Frederic wanted to keep Russia pleased, when Catherine came to him. He feared a war and so he had to get a piece of the cake he originally wanted to keep as buffer between Prussia and Russia.

Adler

 

[Bast]

Well, Frederic could have been married with Maria Theresia. And such a marriage might have united Germany.

LOL! They hated each other's guts. At the partition of Poland Frederick said this about Maria Theresa: "The woman she cried and she cried but she took and she took".

No, it would not have worked out.

 

[warpus]

I could actually see major conflict between Germany and Austria and Russia joining one side possibly.

If Germany unified at that time, I'd expect Austria to be a member of the 'union'.

 

[Jan H]

After the French revolution privileges were removed, the coffers of the state filled as money and assets salted away by the monarchy and aristocracy were nationalised, but most importantly French society took off because the old constraints of the privilege system were removed. Suddenly anyone with ambition and talent could have a go at things, where previously this would have been a matter of being born in the right position in society; very inefficient. Consequently French society boomed.

Result: More power to France than ever.

Yes, and also:
The French republic annexated the Belgian territory (in 1792 I believe), which was a part of Austria before that, and it installed puppet governements in The Netherlands and Spain, IIRC. So I'd definately say that that for a while, France was more powerfull after the revolution than before.