What if Nationalist Spain would have joined Axis?

Danielos

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Between 1936-1939 the Spanish civil war raged between the Nationalists, fascists supported by Germany and Italy, and the Republicans, communists supported by Soviet Union. The Nationalists won the war and yet another European country was ruled by fascists.

In 1940, France was defeated and Britain was struggling alone. Italy joined the war on the Axis side. Germany tried to persuade Franco to now repay the help and have Nationalist Spain join the war on the Axis side. However, Franco stalled and Spain never entered WW2. The Fascist Spain survived the war.

What do you think would have happened if Spain indeed would have joined Axis in summer 1940? Suddenly, Gibraltar would have been in a very vulnerable position and UK would have risked having the entire western entry into the Mediterranean closed.

What are your thoughts?
 
Counter-factuals suck. But I've harped on that enough (if you'd care to explain why Franco would betray all the values he fought for to join Hitler, be my guest); so let me just say that describing the Spanish nationalists as "fascist" is incredibly wrong. They were right-wing authoritarian. There is, in fact, a difference. That's why they weren't allied with the Axis in the first place.
 
Counter-factuals suck. But I've harped on that enough (if you'd care to explain why Franco would betray all the values he fought for to join Hitler, be my guest); so let me just say that describing the Spanish nationalists as "fascist" is incredibly wrong. They were right-wing authoritarian. There is, in fact, a difference. That's why they weren't allied with the Axis in the first place.

Hehe, either you or me has played way too much HoI2... :lol:

I think "what ifs" are fascinating. A slight change in a series of events and we may see a drastically different histoy. No matter what you call Nationalist Spain, they were still called a non-belligerent Axis-country in WW2 and sure had Axis sympathies. If a country like Finland could join the Axis cause, it surely was possible Spain could join the Axis if tempted enough...
 
Gibraltar would likely fall, but Hitler would have gained another front to keep his eyes on.

I guess with the fall of Gibraltar it may take a longer time to get troops and material into North Africa for the British, however i don't know if Gibraltar has the defenses to completely stop ships from going trough the straits. But anyway, Soviets continue getting arms and materials, stops German advance and turns it. The U.S and can still invade Northern Africa and even if in this scenario the Brits are kicked out of Africa a war torn Spain recently done with a civil war would be an easy target for an allied invasion. All it does is give them an extra potential landing spot in 1943/1944.
 
Counter-factuals suck. But I've harped on that enough (if you'd care to explain why Franco would betray all the values he fought for to join Hitler, be my guest); so let me just say that describing the Spanish nationalists as "fascist" is incredibly wrong. They were right-wing authoritarian. There is, in fact, a difference. That's why they weren't allied with the Axis in the first place.

Nazism and Fascism are different in many aspects themselves, but they shared enough similarities between with each other and were definitely very liked minded ideologies, just as they do with the Felangist. I mean the Fanglist ideologies, listed below, sound pretty similar to their German and especially Italian counterparts.

*Corporate state in which class struggle would be superseded by the Vertical Trade Union, forcing workers and owners into one organization.
* Roman Catholicism
* Attention to the Castilian farmers
* Nationalist pride in the history of the Spanish Empire
* Anti-separatism
* Anti-communism, anti-anarchism and anti-capitalism
* Anti-democratic, anti-liberal, anti-parliamentarian ideology
* Paramilitarian
 
I think "what ifs" are fascinating. A slight change in a series of events and we may see a drastically different histoy.

Hence why they're pointless and impossible to decipher. A butterfly can change the course of history; changing something enormous like the temperament of a dictator of a mid-power makes it incomprehensible. See the thread in my signature please.

No matter what you call Nationalist Spain, they were still called a non-belligerent Axis-country in WW2 and sure had Axis sympathies.

"Non-belligerent Axis-country" is an oxymoron. It is true that they had Axis sympathies, but there was also "Axis-sympathies" (as vague a term as it is) within a great deal of other neutral countries as well, including Yugoslavia, Portugal and Turkey.

It's incorrect, by the way, to think that Franco inclined towards fascism. He was a conservative Catholic by nature whose number one goal was to fend off Marxism. Thus, he was willing to accept Hitler's and Mussolini's aid, and he did not object to Spanish volunteer units contributing to Barbarossa, but in no other manner was he sympathetic to the Axis cause. Otherwise he would've joined them!

If a country like Finland could join the Axis cause, it surely was possible Spain could join the Axis if tempted enough...

What kind of logic is this? Do you honestly think countries so circumstantially, culturally and logistically different can be compared in a one-to-one manner as such? Finland was temperamentally a neutral country; they were forced to go on the defensive due to Soviet aggression, and they only assisted the Axis in the Eastern Front as a preemptive defensive measure against a common foe. Hence why they're referred to typically as "co-belligerent" rather than part of the Axis.
 
Nazism and Fascism are different in many aspects themselves, but they shared enough similarities between with each other and were definitely very liked minded ideologies, just as they do with the Felangist.

Nazism is a subset of fascism, which is entirely unrelated to Spanish nationalism. It's a common misconception that Franco was a Felangist; he essentially hijacked the party and molded it to his own will.

* Roman Catholicism

Both Hitler and Mussolini persecuted Catholics. Hence why post-Civil War Spain became a refugee center for persecuted Christians and Jews.

* Attention to the Castilian farmers

Well you got me there; Hitler must be a Felangist.

* Nationalist pride in the history of the Spanish Empire

I take it every American president for the past 200 years has been a fascist?

* Anti-separatism
* Anti-communism, anti-anarchism and anti-capitalism

Franco wasn't anti-capitalist per se. His free market reforms brought Spain a long way between his rise to power and his death. And, can you clarify as to what you mean by "anti-separatism?"

* Anti-democratic, anti-liberal, anti-parliamentarian ideology
* Paramilitarian

What you've just described above is authoritarianism. Not fascism. Fascism is totalitarian in nature in that it prescribes that the purpose in life is to serve the Party; hence why fascists tap your phone lines, heavily censor and propagandise the media, put religion under strict control of the state, etc. In authoritarian countries, such as under Pinochet and Franco, the individual still has some manner of personal freedom so long as he does not interfere with the dictatorship.
 
Republicans, communists supported by Soviet Union.

The Republicans had more left anarchists than communists. In fact communists constituted a fairly small portion of the Republicans.
 
I wasn't saying that all of those things were shared with the Nazis and Italian Fascists, I was simply saying a lot of them were.


Nazism is a subset of fascism, which is entirely unrelated to Spanish nationalism. It's a common misconception that Franco was a Felangist; he essentially hijacked the party and molded it to his own will.

Couldn't you make that argument about Lenin and Communism or Hitler and Nazism or Paul and Christianity? Rarely is the founder of a movement its only leader or the sole contributor to its tenets.

Franco was more than just a Spanish nationalist, there were other Spanish nationalistic groups before and during the Spanish Civil War that were not Felangist.

Both Hitler and Mussolini persecuted Catholics. Hence why post-Civil War Spain became a refugee center for persecuted Christians and Jews.

Mussolini and the Catholic Church generally got a long well except for a few incidents.

Well you got me there; Hitler must be a Felangist.

Again, I was just stating the major tenets of the movement. Of course there would be national differences.

I take it every American president for the past 200 years has been a fascist?

I don't think "Nationalistic Pride for the American Empire" is in any Party's platform. Nonetheless, there is no way you can't admit that the Felangist were not extremely nationalistic and proud of past history, as were the Nazi and Italian Fascist parties (the Third Reich, the New Roman Empire, etc).

Franco wasn't anti-capitalist per se. His free market reforms brought Spain a long way between his rise to power and his death. And, can you clarify as to what you mean by "anti-separatism?"

Yes, he wasn't anti-capitalist in the sense that he completely disagreed with a free market structure or anything, but he certainly believed the state had a vital part in economic planning.

By anti-separatism I simply meant that he was against Basque, Catalan, Galician or any other of the minorities I'm forgetting having any independence or autonomy.

What you've just described above is authoritarianism. Not fascism. Fascism is totalitarian in nature in that it prescribes that the purpose in life is to serve the Party; hence why fascists tap your phone lines, heavily censor and propagandise the media, put religion under strict control of the state, etc. In authoritarian countries, such as under Pinochet and Franco, the individual still has some manner of personal freedom so long as he does not interfere with the dictatorship.

I often hear people debate whether or not Nazism was truly Fascism because Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy had many obvious differences. Italian Fascism was never as blatantly racist as Nazism and was more concerned with the role of the state. Nazis believed in a strong state too obviously, but many people would argue this was only for the advancement of the national ethnic state.

I suppose it all comes down to simply what you consider the most important aspects of a fascist state. I would consider any highly nationalistic, anti-Marxist, anti-liberal, anti-minority government to have extreme fascists undertones, and while Franco's Spain certainly didn't share every aspect with Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Spain, it shared enough and admired them enough (especially early on) that he could probably, in my mind safely be called a fascist without it being an incorrect statement. I guess since it's all semantics, and either one of us could find 10,000 different definitions of fascists, it's not a terribly important or constructive argument.
 
Gibraltar would likely fall, but Hitler would have gained another front to keep his eyes on.

I guess with the fall of Gibraltar it may take a longer time to get troops and material into North Africa for the British, however i don't know if Gibraltar has the defenses to completely stop ships from going trough the straits. But anyway, Soviets continue getting arms and materials, stops German advance and turns it. The U.S and can still invade Northern Africa and even if in this scenario the Brits are kicked out of Africa a war torn Spain recently done with a civil war would be an easy target for an allied invasion. All it does is give them an extra potential landing spot in 1943/1944.

You make it seem like having Spain in the Axis would be more of a burden than an asset. The country had a decent industry and manpower and should have been able to put a substantial army, airforce and navy which could have been a valuable help for the Axis in the Mediterranean and African theatre.
 
I wasn't saying that all of those things were shared with the Nazis and Italian Fascists, I was simply saying a lot of them were.

Yes, well, authoritarian regimes have a lot in common in general. Nevertheless, there is a clear line between right-wing authoritarianism, Stalinism, fascism, ultranationalism, et al.

Couldn't you make that argument about Lenin and Communism or Hitler and Nazism or Paul and Christianity? Rarely is the founder of a movement its only leader or the sole contributor to its tenets. Franco was more than just a Spanish nationalist, there were other Spanish nationalistic groups before and during the Spanish Civil War that were not Felangist.

Nazism can be said to be a specific form of fascism, in that it's infused with racial tendencies. And I dispute the point about Franco not being simply a nationalist: it's pretty evident given the hardline the Falange had on several issues that Franco was more pragmatic on, that he was not a hardcore ideologue.

Mussolini and the Catholic Church generally got a long well except for a few incidents.

Incorrect. Read Non Abbiamo Bisogno sometime.

I don't think "Nationalistic Pride for the American Empire" is in any Party's platform. Nonetheless, there is no way you can't admit that the Felangist were not extremely nationalistic and proud of past history, as were the Nazi and Italian Fascist parties (the Third Reich, the New Roman Empire, etc).

The Falange and Franco were both nationalists, yes.

Yes, he wasn't anti-capitalist in the sense that he completely disagreed with a free market structure or anything, but he certainly believed the state had a vital part in economic planning.

As do the majority of capitalists in the world. Strictly speaking, Spain was far more economically right-wing than Italy and Austro-Germany were at the time; closer to America, really.

By anti-separatism I simply meant that he was against Basque, Catalan, Galician or any other of the minorities I'm forgetting having any independence or autonomy.

Yes, well that would simply be nationalism.

I suppose it all comes down to simply what you consider the most important aspects of a fascist state. I would consider any highly nationalistic, anti-Marxist, anti-liberal, anti-minority government to have extreme fascists undertones, and while Franco's Spain certainly didn't share every aspect with Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Spain, it shared enough and admired them enough (especially early on) that he could probably, in my mind safely be called a fascist without it being an incorrect statement. I guess since it's all semantics, and either one of us could find 10,000 different definitions of fascists, it's not a terribly important or constructive argument.

I don't know why you think it's a matter of personal opinion. It's not semantics, nor is it subjective. Fascism is a particular ideology that's very different from right-wing nationalism. The prime example, which I brought up previously, is the role of the state in the lives of the individual. Authoritarian nationalists like Franco, Pinochet, Pilsudski, Salazar and Petain strictly control the country; but not the same degree as fascists and Stalinists, who use the ruling political party as a religion. A Spaniard in Cold War Spain has a great deal of civil freedom, but no political freedom. The Nazi Party and National Fascist Parties were totalitarian, and not authoritarian because they utterly stripped all notions of civil and personal freedom.
 
You make it seem like having Spain in the Axis would be more of a burden than an asset. The country had a decent industry and manpower and should have been able to put a substantial army, airforce and navy which could have been a valuable help for the Axis in the Mediterranean and African theatre.

Because i pretty much think they would have been. With a civil war just over they would need a strong army at home to keep the former republicans under control. Also i would guess financially they would be in it pretty deep with the war just over, and the republicans had shipped off the country entire gold reserves to Moscow.

http://warandgame.blogspot.com/2009/05/spanish-military-during-world-war-ii.html

Here is an interesting link. Seems like WW2 Spain was much weaker than I imagined...

Interesting, will read later after i finish my paper on war and international law :)
 
On the fascist thing: The key to fascism is it's necessarily and fundamentally revolutionary nature; it seeks to overturn existing political and social structures in the service of a transcendent national or ethnic identity. Franco's regime, on the other hand, was a deeply reactionary, conservative one, which did not merely collaborate with the establishment, as did Hitler and Mussolini's, but was born from it. If collaboration occurred it was between his regime and the fascists, appropriating portions of their rhetoric to give him a populist edge and to decrease their influence as a distinct political force. His regime may be fairly described as "para-fascist" as a result, but not "fascist" in the true sense of the term, any more than ultranationalist leaders like Stalin or Dollfuss "fascists".

The Republicans had more left anarchists than communists. In fact communists constituted a fairly small portion of the Republicans.
True. They just happened to punch above their weight because they acted as the Soviet proxy in the country.
 
Incorrect. Read Non Abbiamo Bisogno sometime.

I never said they were buddy-buddy, just that they overall they didn't have that much trouble with one another. Mussolini was the one who essentially recognized the Pope's independence and also made Roman Catholicism the official state religion. I realize the Lateran Treaties were before the whole church education incident in '32, but to say Fascist Italy oppressed actively Catholics when most of the population was Catholic doesn't make much sense.

I don't know why you think it's a matter of personal opinion. It's not semantics, nor is it subjective. Fascism is a particular ideology that's very different from right-wing nationalism. The prime example, which I brought up previously, is the role of the state in the lives of the individual. Authoritarian nationalists like Franco, Pinochet, Pilsudski, Salazar and Petain strictly control the country; but not the same degree as fascists and Stalinists, who use the ruling political party as a religion. A Spaniard in Cold War Spain has a great deal of civil freedom, but no political freedom. The Nazi Party and National Fascist Parties were totalitarian, and not authoritarian because they utterly stripped all notions of civil and personal freedom.

Find me a definition that says Fascism is always totalitarian or for that matter exact difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism. As I stated, there are thousands of definitions of Fascist and I doubt all of them contain the word Totalitarian. Franco is listed as a Fascist pretty darn often. Often enough it seems wrong to simply say every source that calls him that is completely wrong and that he is simply a right wing nationalist. You can decide what the deciding factor of a Fascist is, but you are not going to find any single source that says it has to be totalitarianism.

I'm not even arguing Franco is a Facist exactly, I just think to say he totally definitly is not one isn't right when his regime shares so many elements with the Nazis and Italian Facists.
 
I'm not even arguing Franco is a Facist exactly, I just think to say he totally definitly is not one isn't right when his regime shares so many elements with the Nazis and Italian Facists.
But his regime lacked the fundamental, defining element of fascism which it's revolutionary, palingenetic ethos; that is to say, it appeals to a form of revolutionary populism that seeks national re-birth. Franco's regime, while certainly sharing the authoritarian ultra-nationalism of the fascists, lacked this key element. It was, instead, a deeply conservative one, opposed to revolution by it's very nature. Stalin, after all, was a great proponent of authoritarian ultra-nationalism, and no more an adherent of openly fascist ideology than Franco; the two merely chose to react differently to the movement, for their own reasons.

Your argument appears to be something of an inverted "No True Scotsmen"; you suggest inclusion in a group is determined by something other than that group's defining qualities.

Edit: LightSpectra's quote was my original post; it was edited into something a bit less glib and misleading before he posted. Apologies for any confusion.
 
I never said they were buddy-buddy, just that they overall they didn't have that much trouble with one another.

They did, in fact. If you're looking for direct opposition (which wasn't possible until the Allied invasion of Italy), one has to look no further than the the Four Days of Naples, a revolt hugely sponsored through Church resources and campaigning.

Mussolini was the one who essentially recognized the Pope's independence and also made Roman Catholicism the official state religion. I realize the Lateran Treaties were before the whole church education incident in 32, but to say Fascist Italy oppressed actively Catholics when most of the population was Catholic doesn't make much sense.

When you're observing population statistics, then all individuals baptized within the Church are counted as Catholic, including Mussolini, who himself was fervently anti-Christian. Nevertheless, devout Catholics, following the encyclicals of Popes Pius XI and XII, refused to join the Fascist Party and joined the resistance. This was not just a problem for Mussolini, but also for Hitler; they were constantly dealing with Christian dissenters. I needn't mention, also, figures like Aristides de Sousa Mendes, Hugh O'Flaherty and Pius XII himself who are responsible for saving a great deal of lives from Axis persecution.

And the Soviet Union is often listed as a "communist country". People, you will find, are prone to the misuses of such terminology.

At least the Soviets considered themselves to be communist. The Franco/fascism association only comes about because people are too lazy to make or learn the proper distinction.
 
At least the Soviets considered themselves to be communist. The Franco/fascism association only comes about because people are too lazy to make or learn the proper distinction.
Well, the regime considered themselves to be "communists", but they considered the USSR itself to be "socialist"; the reference was to the stagist nature of Marxism, rather than any claim that they were not "real communists". It was, I suppose, a bit vague, and not a little misleading, hence the edit mentioned above.
However, your certainly right that the distinction is more blatant in this case, and true in it's entirety.
 
http://warandgame.blogspot.com/2009/05/spanish-military-during-world-war-ii.html

Here is an interesting link. Seems like WW2 Spain was much weaker than I imagined...
Interesting find.:)

Crunched some demographics and other numbers on Spain in 1940:
About 55% the population of Italy, a GDP/capita about 70% of Italy's, making the total GDP less than 40% of Italy's, roughly that of the Netherlands at the time, but considerably less industry than either, and on top of that actually quite badly ravaged by the recent civil war.:scan:
 
Counter-factuals suck. But I've harped on that enough (if you'd care to explain why Franco would betray all the values he fought for to join Hitler, be my guest); so let me just say that describing the Spanish nationalists as "fascist" is incredibly wrong. They were right-wing authoritarian. There is, in fact, a difference. That's why they weren't allied with the Axis in the first place.

right-wing authoritarianism does not exist. The extreme right would believe in no government, while the far left would believe in Totalitarianism.
 
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